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What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?


Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #121
So far from what I can see it seems that Britain's crime was:

-not invading Germany for treaty breaking and thus starting another European war only 15 years after the trauma of the last one.

and

-not inventing a time machine and using it to go back and murder a Bavarian infant.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,792  
1 Dec 2008 /  #122
Strange assuption ... In my opinion Poland and France would beat you and everything would be ok. There were milions of Poles on German side of border but I doubt that Poland would like to change it.

What would be ok?
You are to ambigous here...please explain!
Try a news report...explain the situation...Is there a polish flag on the Reichstag or what?
Assumed you had beaten the german forces, WHAT THEN???

Agressive Poland ... LOL :). I think that this war would be good for europe. Beaten Germans in 1933 would changed their mind.

Yes, a country invading another is seen in every case as the "bad guy", if he would have good reasons or not. He is the agressor and the other the victim!

Finaly invasion in 1933 was the best solution,

Why??? Gimme some more Luki, not only statements...
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #123
Hitler claimed Poles to be animials ... he has written it in his book. East was land to conquer. Game we have been playing was more than clear. He was German leader he had broken peace treaty.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

Germans loved his book and ideology in which he claimed that he is going to conquer the east.

Germans have broken treaty and trust me Poles wouldn't have done for you what you have done for Poles.

History shows that we were right with our ideas in 1933.
Harry  
1 Dec 2008 /  #124
I find it rather odd that British forgets that Polish depended on them. Just

That is because you are either a liar or an idiot. The invasion of Poland was why Britain declared war on Germany and attacked Germany as best it was able and Polish independence is why Britain refused German offers of peace.

In my opinion Poland and France would beat you and everything would be ok. There were milions of Poles on German side of border but I doubt that Poland would like to change it.

Let's say that you are correct and that would have happened. Now please explain how the British are to blame for this not happening.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,792  
1 Dec 2008 /  #125
Hitler claimed Poles to be animials ... he has written it in his book. East was land to conquer. Game we have been playing was more than clear. He was German leader he had broken peace treaty.

We are talking 1933 here...Poland would be the agressor, trying to take over a peaceful and WEAK neighbouring country. Try to leave your polish-centric viewpoint behind and try to look at this from outside, as it would perceived by most countries in Europe and world wide!

The Treaty of Versailles was a goner anyhow, it was one of the promises Hitler made to get voted in. Did you see France and GB doing anything but protest weakly???

Enough with your political apologies and please some facts...how should it be done...imagine you were Pilsudski and you command your army to break the border...now what next:

.....
VaFunkoolo 6 | 654  
1 Dec 2008 /  #126
Strange assuption ... In my opinion Poland and France would beat you and everything would be ok.

Whilst we can argue that Poland and France might have beaten Germany on paper, when it came to the crunch both countries pussied out pretty quickly and needed to be rescued by those with the courage to fight. History shows this quite clearly, theres nothing to be done that can change this
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #127
We are talking 1933 here...Poland would be the agressor, trying to take over a peaceful and WEAK neighbouring country. Try to leave your polish-centric viewpoint behind and try to look at this from outside, as it would perceived by most countries in Europe and world wide!

Hiler claimed Poland land that must be conquered and people to be expled, exterminated or used as forced laubour force. It was our German neighbour in 1933.

He was loved leader in Germany.

How does it look from out side ? I don't care. If we look on what had happend durring WWII ... burned Warszawa, London, milons people had been killed.

Whilst we can argue that Poland and France might have beaten Germany on paper, when it came to the crunch both countries pussied out pretty quickly and needed to be rescued by those with the courage to fight. History shows this quite clearly, theres nothing to be done that can change this

In 1933 Germans had only sick ideaology claiming Germans to be better than Frech Poles and worst than Jews, no tanks or luftwafe no army but clear plans.

It is not popular point of view in Poland but alianc with Soviets in 1939 wasn't bad idea as well.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,792  
1 Dec 2008 /  #128
How does it look from out side ? I don't care. If we look on what had happend durring WWII ... burned Warszawa, London, milons people had been killed.

You have no idea what you are talking about here, haven't you Luki?

I don't care for your reasoning....I care about the practicability of this far fetched plan.
You just say "all will be ok" without showing us the details how it might have worked out.
I believe it would have led to an even greater disaster with a loss of face for Poland and nobody caring if your country get's parted again between the victorious Germany and Russian...in the end nobody cares for an agressor!

Would WWII started anyhow? Who knows....but I doubt the peace between Stalin and Hitler would have hold forever, Europe just wasn't big enough for both of them...(maybe it wouldn't had become a WORLD WAR, just Germans and Russians slugging it out between each other)
VaFunkoolo 6 | 654  
1 Dec 2008 /  #129
You have no idea what you are talking about here

This seems to be a recurring theme
celinski 31 | 1,258  
1 Dec 2008 /  #130
maybe it wouldn't had become a WORLD WAR, just Germans and Russians slugging it out between each other)

If only Poland could have just ducked.
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #131
A simple question to clarify the gist of this entire thread:

Should protecting/saving Poland have been a priority for Britain even if it meant that Britain and the entire outcome of war would have been compromised?
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,792  
1 Dec 2008 /  #132
If only Poland could have just ducked.

They should start working their brains instead being always so eager to fight (and being proud of it).
Especially their position in Europe between two power houses demands more cleverness and smart decisions than Poles showed in their history!
Maybe here is a reason for the lacking acknowledgement of Polands deeds, in the end they are proud of their military feats but it never brought them much.

Diplomacy, negotiations and smart alliances instead of stubborness would have maybe got them farther....just an idea.

But as we could already observe in the EU THIS particular polish feature is alive and well...
celinski 31 | 1,258  
1 Dec 2008 /  #133
Should protecting/saving Poland have been a priority for Britain even if it meant that Britain and the entire outcome of war would have been compromised?

Yes, it was never just Poland. Not just British but also French.

The opportunity to fight a brief, localized war against Germany was therefore lost in September 1939. In hindsight, also lost were the opportunities to save millions of lives, to rid the world of Hitler, and to have prevented the creation of conditions that led to the Cold War. As General Ironside commented in 1945, after much of Europe was in ruins, "Militarily we should have gone all out against the German the minute he invaded Poland. ... We did not ... And so we missed the strategical advantage of the Germans being engaged in the East. We thought completely defensively and of ourselves."[21] And so they did.

worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/reading/history/polandbetrayal.htm

They should start working their brains instead always so eager to fight (and being proud of it).

You seem to forget it was not Poland that attacked Nazi's and Soviet's. Go to 1939 and what did you think Polish would do? Therefore we are not the ones without brains, eager to fight.
VaFunkoolo 6 | 654  
1 Dec 2008 /  #134
Diplomacy, negotiations and smart alliances instead of stubborness would have maybe got them farther....just an idea.

But as we could already observe in the EU THIS particular polish feature is alive and well...

Exactly.

A bunch of wind up merchants who dont learn from their mistakes and then moan about it
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #135
Yes, it was never just Poland. Not just British but also French.

So you do think that Poland's situation should have taken precedence over all other matters?
celinski 31 | 1,258  
1 Dec 2008 /  #136
wind up merchants who dont learn from their mistakes

Can you tell me the odds Poland had? Stuck between two sick dictators? This was not just Soviets vs Poland or Nazi's vs Poland. This was two main powers with nothing but destroying Poland and anything to do with her and you seem to think doing nothing would have stopped this attack in some way? Giving in to Hitler would never satify his hunger for blood, it would simply have made him want more. As for Stalin, his thirst for total control would swelter if he saw Hitler getting any where with Poland.

So you do think that Poland's situation should have taken precedence over all other matters?

IMHO it would have stopped WW2 from becoming a world war. Nazi's were not just looking at Poland, this was where they started. I also feel Nazi's mistake was taking on one to many fronts and if they did not do this the out come would have been in their favor.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,792  
1 Dec 2008 /  #137
Go to 1939 and what did you think Polish would do? Therefore we are not the ones without brains, eager to fight.

Germany for once had real grievances with the corridor and Danzig.
Poland was percieved as very stubborn, arrogant, denying every compromise, fully trusting in their alliance with France and GB.
Did you know which choice Poland left the Germans in Danzig?
"Become Poles or leave!"
Original polish quote:
"Germany can't avoid war even if she wanted to!"
or
"In one week in Berlin!"
...always trusting the French and the Brits pulling their nuts out of the fire if chicken came home to roast!

They do this again today...trusting in far away countries like the US instead of working closely with their neighbours!
z_darius 14 | 3,965  
1 Dec 2008 /  #138
No matter how many times Poles lie about this event, the facts are going to stay the same. So why can't you try telling the truth for a change?

You are a disgrace to any historical research. Your hate filled posts have no place here and I am really surprised that anybody in Poland would give you any kind of employment, unless they are, like you, interested in destroying Poland's good reputation and the memory of the thousands who fought against Nazis, selflessly and wherever they could.

What is even more shocking is your blatant and uninhibited lying, in public, even though you must know the truth if you want to claim any position in the debate. What happened at the end of WW2 and how Poles were betrayed was made possible only by the scumbags like yourself. Unfortunately, garbage like yourself is still well and alive. You are a lowly liar.

It is also notable for the exclusion of all Polish servicemen; hundreds thousands of whom served in the Polish Armed Forces in the West as one of the largest Allied contingents. The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited; it declined because the invitation was not extended to any other Polish unit, despite Poland being the fourth largest European ally during World War II.

or:

For the Poles and their military standards will be present for the first time in a British victory parade. Even though Poland made one of the largest contributions to the Allied war effort and there were thousands of Polish troops stationed in the UK at the time, the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946.

Stalin, who had established communist rule in eastern Europe, indicated that he did not wish Poland to be represented and the British authorities agreed for fear of offending their ally.

Now Britain is making amends by putting the Poles at the head of Sunday's parade.

"It's very good that it's happening. But it's a bit late in the day," says 95-year-old Witold Leitgeber, a former Polish army captain who, like many others, settled in Britain after the war.

Jan Zielonka, lecturer in European politics at Oxford University, says: "Historically, Polish contribution to the war has never been sufficiently acknowledged. Poland provided the fourth largest Allied army in the war yet they were excluded from marching in the celebration because Stalin wanted it so."


Yet, despite its accomplishments in the war, none Of 303's Pilots took part in the fly-past. None marched in the parade. For they were all Polish -- and Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin. A week earlier, ten members of Parliament had written a letter of protest against the exclusion. "Ethiopians will be there," the letter declared. "Mexicans will be there. The Fiji Medical Corps, the Labuan Police and the Seychelles Pioneer Corps will [march] -- and rightly, too. But the Poles will not be there. Have we lost not only our sense of perspective, but our sense of gratitude as well?"

lynneolson.com/questionofhonor//prologue.htm
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #139
Problem with Poland is that it is to small to be player like Germany, France or UK and to big to behave like Czech rep.

Not to mention geography and our importance in somebodys global geopolitical games.

When we look what had happend in Poland good solution to reduce losts in population and infrastructure was aliance with Sovies (1939). Finaly we were under their occupation from 1944-45 to 1989.
Kilkline 1 | 689  
1 Dec 2008 /  #140
IMHO it would have stopped WW2 from becoming a world war.

What and when would have stopped WW2 becoming a war? What should Britain have done and when should they have done it?
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #141
I believe it would have led to an even greater disaster with a loss of face for Poland and nobody caring if your country get's parted again between the victorious Germany and Russian...in the end nobody cares for an agressor!

In 1933 Soviets were murdering milions of Ukrianians... they were busy.

In 1933 Germany had no army ...

In 1939 Poland had very hard choices.
z_darius 14 | 3,965  
1 Dec 2008 /  #142
What should Britain have done and when should they have done it?

First of all that clown Chamberlain should have not blackmailed Poland into abandoning mobilization efforts when it was clear the war was inevitable. They should have been realistic in their promises (that's what pacts are in essence), or they should have worked towards making their military actually be fit for war. After all they saw what happened to Czekoslovakia, and British military force in Europe was comparable to the Czekoslovakian.

Years before, Britain should have stuck to the treaties and limitations imposed on Germany.

When Hitler bombed Polish cities, towns and villages indiscriminately, the British and the French could have done the same, but concentrating on German military and industrial installations. Unfortunately, there was no real leadership in the UK at the time, and so Britain lost the first phase of WW2 miserably, and it could be argued that through failed politiking in the years and months leading to the war, and through their military inaction, the British government helped Hitler extend the war and its scale to what is now history.

When Brits laugh at Poles for Spetember/October 1939, it is them who deserve the laughs. The British and the French, the two "superpowers" were powerless anachronisms wrapped in pretty flags and great speeches, while Poland was the only country where Germans encountered any resistance to speak of.
Harry  
1 Dec 2008 /  #143
Oh look, it's everybody's favourite anti-semite, back with more of his hate-filled lies!

Bit of a pity for you that even the source you quote says that Poles were invited to the London parade:

It is also notable for the exclusion of all Polish servicemen; hundreds thousands of whom served in the Polish Armed Forces in the West as one of the largest Allied contingents.

So, as I said, free Poles were invited but didn't bother to attend.

The representatives of the official government of Poland was also invited to attend:

In what had to be one of the more painful episodes in this illustrious unit and its nation's history, the worst example of Western backstabbing comes when the U.S. and Britain recognize the post-war Soviet-puppet government of Poland, the most symbolic moment comes when the British are conducting their Victory Parade, on June 8, 1946, and the Labour government invites Communist Poland to take part but, lest Stalin be offended, bars the Poles who actually fought for England.

thecommunitypaper.com/archive/6_06/index.php

Those [free Poles] invited refused the invitation and stated without hesitation: contingents representing each service or none at all.

polishsquadronsremembered.com/Victory_parade.html

Keep lying and keep whining, bigot.
z_darius 14 | 3,965  
1 Dec 2008 /  #144
Harry

Poles composed the 4th largest forces in Europe during WW2, and only after protests in the British parliament and in the British press were a token few invited, as a consolation prize. They refused the breadcrumbs that someone unwillingly kicked in their direction because this is the way to behave honorably. They all risked their lives, they all should have been invited.

But then, honor is not something you wouldn't even come close to understanding.
Prince 15 | 590  
1 Dec 2008 /  #145
..always trusting the French and the Brits pulling their nuts out of the fire if chicken came home to roast!They do this again today...trusting in far away countries like the US instead of working closely with their neighbours!

We both know that Russian - German aliance is not in American business (American publicist writte all the time about it)

I don't see Germans and Russians giving gvarances for Poland and our peaceful life. Nord Stream is such example . You don't want Anglosaxon domination and we want peaceful life. Build Gas pipe lines thought Poland and we can fell safe and Russians and Germans can play global games.
Harry  
1 Dec 2008 /  #146
Poles composed the 4th largest forces in Europe during WW2, and only after protests in the British parliament and in the British press were a token few invited, as a consolation prize. They refused the breadcrumbs that someone unwillingly kicked in their direction because this is the way to behave honorably. They all risked their lives, they all should have been invited.

So now you say that they were invited. I do wish you would make your mind up.

Were any free Czechs invited? Were any free Slovaks invited? Were any free Yugoslavs invited? Were any free Danes invited? Were any free French invited? Were any free Belgians invited? Were any free Dutch invited? No. Only representatives of official governments were invited. Free forces from only one nation were invited: Poles. Of course the Poles just had to refuse to attend. Otherwise you all wouldn't be able to lie about Poland not being invited.

But then, honor is not something you wouldn't even come close to understanding.

An anti-semitic liar is lecturing me on honour. He must be a Pole.
VaFunkoolo 6 | 654  
1 Dec 2008 /  #147
Can you tell me the odds Poland had? Stuck between two sick dictators?

Yes Carol, I could tell you. But there seems little point as you wouldnt understand
z_darius 14 | 3,965  
1 Dec 2008 /  #148
An anti-semitic liar is lecturing me on honour. He must be a Pole.

I wouldn't dare. The task is impossible. You are completely resistant to any sense of reason and lack what it takes to understand things. Hatred blinds you and there in no know cure for it. A lowly scribe who can't make it in any serious periodical, so he goes to Poland, finds a column in a substandard 3rd rate rag, and lies to unsuspecting foreigners to satisfy and confirm the distorted image of Poland they had been conditioned to accept for decades.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,792  
1 Dec 2008 /  #149
I don't see Germans and Russians giving gvarances for Poland and our peaceful life. Nord Stream is such example . You don't want Americans and we want peaceful life. Build Gas pipe lines thought Poland and we can fell safe and Russians and Germans can play global games.

Best example, the Nord-Stream-Pipeline! :)

Poland was invited to take part....they would have gotten independent access to the pipeline with branches to polish territory (the offer still stands as far as I know).

But noooooo....making a political stunk...calling it a Molotov-Ribbentrop-Pakt....THAT is so not clever!

The other best example is the military shield!
Preferring to be the pawn of a far away power who cares as much for Poland in need as did GB or France instead of listening and acknowledging their neighbours objections and talking WITH THEM instead of agreeing to far away powers....nothing new here!

You want ALL at your own terms and will get nothing in the end...

PS: The EU is more a garant for a peaceful life than the US is!
Harry  
1 Dec 2008 /  #150
You are completely resistant to any sense of reason and lack what it takes to understand things. Hatred blinds you and there in no know cure for it.

As a good Pole, you'll no doubt know the bible. I direct you to Luke 6:42
" Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye."

You can not read/understand simple statements when they are put in front of you and when somebody forces you to face an unpleasant truth, you scream that they must be a Jew, before starting to shout 'Jews this' 'Jews that' 'Its all the fault of the Jews'.

BTW: I'm doing very nicely thank you from my writing. But I only started writing when I got to Poland. I actually came here to work with VSO (the British/Commonwealth version of Peace Corps) training Polish teachers.

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