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POLAND TO SIGN US MISSILE SHIELD DEAL TONIGHT


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
22 Aug 2008 /  #211
why is this a reason, it's not even Russia said so.

Don't play daft!
It's meaned by Poland as a threat against Russa and it's seen by Russia as such!

Do you think Poland should just bow to Russia's threats?

Just don't wonder when you get such a reaction to your stupid actions!

"I believe that the events in Georgia caused the government finally to understand that black is black and white is white," Kaczynski told Polish television."

Georgia opressed minorities and attacked Russia...that's still the fact and not eve your one potatoe head can change it!

Do you think that Poland should avoid annoying Russia?

Would be smarter, yes...
Especially if you want to have your own sensitivities taken into account (as Poland often does...and loudly so).
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
22 Aug 2008 /  #212
Yet Russian protests appear to have reinforced the Polish media's support for the agreement. "We have made another important step to increase Poland's security," the daily Rzeczpospolita said in an editorial. "And it is the Russians who convince us how important it is. As our sad experience teaches us, the louder they protest against something we want to do, the more certain it is that it lies in our best interest."

This is from the Time article I posted BB. Matyjasz put the question 2 u.

This is typical of the Polish psyche BB. I'm glad that they don't appease too much.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #213
Especially if you want to have your own sensitivities taken into account (as Poland often does...and loudly so).

Like that helped in 1939, please. I think one thing that is being overlooked is the part of the aggreement whereas USA will umbrella Poland hould Russia be stupid enough to attack.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
22 Aug 2008 /  #214
Like that helped in 1939, please.

And it should be different today how?

USA will umbrella Poland

How so?

I'm glad that they don't appease too much.

Not annoying your neighbour is not "appeasing"!
I think Poland still needs to find their balance...
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544  
22 Aug 2008 /  #215
Would be smarter, yes...
Especially if you want to have your own sensitivities taken into account (as Poland often does...and loudly so).

Than why did Germany back Poland’s claim to access EU in 2004? Russian government was very furious and vocal about it back in the day. Not to mention Poland's accession to NATO in 1997 which was seen as a direct threat to Russia’s safety and if I remember correctly Russia pointed their missiles at us at that time. Russia points their missiles at as every now and then since 1989 so it's not something unusual, mind you.

But back to the point, should we avoid annoying Russia at all costs or only when the Americans are concerned?

PS: BTW, Good post Kikline.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
22 Aug 2008 /  #216
Than why did Germany back Poland’s claim to access EU in 2004?

Ummm.....don't get me started... :)

But I don't think it was the EU, it might have been Poland becoming a member of the NATO what had Russia up the fence.

In case you have forgotten it but it was a deal that for the Sovietunion to dissolve and peacefully to retreat from central Europe
that the West would make no moves which would feel threating to Russia - means no further NATO enlargement, no encirclement by the NATO.
Something the West trampled on again and again whenever he could, the last try with Georgia in April.
(But some members had a better sense than that and showed the US their finger!)

But back to the point, should we avoid annoying Russia at all costs or only when the Americans are concerned?

It should be a case to case - decision every time. Peace and cooperation in Europe has to be the priority.
We have to accept and to take into account russian sensitivities and they have to accept and to take into account european sensitivities.

It's a give and take!
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #217
I think Poland still needs to find their balance...

Poland feels Russia needs to.

And it should be different today how?

Missile Shield, aggreement with trusted allie if attacked they will help. From your posts I pray all German do not feel as you do, if so, this is very similar to 1939.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
22 Aug 2008 /  #218
aggreement with trusted allie if attacked they will help.

Well....and that differs from 1939 how???

this is very similar to 1939.

You know Cel...for you the war never ended!
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544  
22 Aug 2008 /  #219
In case you have forgotten it but it was a deal that for the Sovietunion to dissolve and peacefully to retreat from central Europe
that the West would make no moves which would feel threating to Russia - means no further NATO enlargement, no encirclement by the NATO.

And Poland’s entry to EU would not pose any threat to Russia? To its influence in this part of the world?

Look at this from their perspective. Russia agrees to dissolve Warsaw Pact and retreat it's soldiers from her former satellites (in Poland it took place in 1993 - I remember it perfectly) and make it a neutral "no mans land" just to find it being annexed to EU eleven years later. Why do you think it didn't "annoy" them? Because in case of access to the EU the side that stretched their influence in that part of Continent was Germany and France rather than USA?
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #220
for you the war never ended!

lol and many more like me, you see until 1989 our voice could not be heard. If you recall you went home to Germany, Poland could not as the home was occupied, remember.

Well....and that differs from 1939 how???

Today everyone knows all to well the cost of not protecting and having allies that will never let Poland, Ukraine or other ex's be taken over.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
22 Aug 2008 /  #221
If you recall you went home to Germany,

Well...the home of my family was not in Berlin but in Breslau and in the surrounding litte towns and villages. My family lived, loved and died there in Silesia for many centuries!

So please start spinning another record!

Today everyone knows all to well the cost of not protecting and having allies that will never let Poland, Ukraine or other ex's be taken over.

Which cost was that?

Do you really think ONE politician in Washington lost one nights sleep about your fate??? They didn't and they won't....
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #222
So please start spinning another record!

OK listen to the words to this one.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
22 Aug 2008 /  #223
I listened...but....help me out here...:)
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #224
Reguardless of where we live we are the same. As I watched the Olympic's last night, Russia and US were playing volley ball, by the way great game Russia, and in this moment they are men gathering to show with pride the skills they have. Then I was thinking of the value we place on anothers life, should the two meet in a battle field what would be gainned and for whom? It's 2008 and we need to find a way to stop this killing and fighting about bs. Sadly the ones that die during war are there because standards of dealing with issues were ignored. As Russia uses fuel, US uses assistance.

Collin Rayes song could not say it better we all Nation wide cry, laugh, love and sadly bleed and die. We need to work as a nation and when no country should feel they need missile shields to protect their rights our work shall be done for the children of the next generation.

Funny thing is if most of us met in person without space between us, we would have alot in common, enjoy each others company and have a drink or two. Hopefully we would not want harm to come to the other. I cannot be there to protect Poland, maybe I argue with you so you will keep an eye on my loved one should they need it. :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
22 Aug 2008 /  #225
I cannot be there to protect Poland, maybe I argue with you so you will keep an eye on my loved one should they need it. :)

Sorry you see me as your enemy!
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #226
I don't have any enemy's. I see you as someone that has strong feeling of defending the actions of a country that I feel is placing all of the European's in danger of war over what, Russia's pride and having to deal with their past injustices, being segregated and left out of main organizations, who knows.

Maybe if push comes to shove and if Poland is in danger Germany will remember the EU and what they have been through and be there for them. I stongly feel if Germany would stand beside ex Soviet run states, Russia would not be pushing their weight around.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
22 Aug 2008 /  #227
Look at this from their perspective. Russia agrees to dissolve Warsaw Pact and retreat it's soldiers from her former satellites (in Poland it took place in 1993 - I remember it perfectly) and make it a neutral "no mans land" just to find it being annexed to EU eleven years later. Why do you think it didn't "annoy" them? Because in case of access to the EU the side that stretched their influence in that part of Continent was Germany and France rather than USA?

For such a big powerful country, why is Russia so easily annoyed? Is it paranoia? Does Russia think little, peaceful Poland is going to rise up and give some "payback" or something just because Poland is in the EU? I don't get it.

That's why Russia is dangerous...it has big guns and is trigger happy, as well as easily annoyed/threatened!
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #228
why is Russia so easily annoyed?

This way it distracks from taking responsability for past action.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
22 Aug 2008 /  #229
For such a big powerful country, why is Russia so easily annoyed? Is it paranoia? Does Russia think little, peaceful Poland is going to rise up and give some "payback" or something just because Poland is in the EU? I don't get it.

My post in another thread as an answer to celinski:

You have a fantastic ability not to comment things that you don't understand even though it's the essence of the problem.
First and foremost Americans want to install missile shield in Poland to control airspace of Russia with help of radiolocators which go together with missile. The missiles itself are of none threat to Russia.

Shopgirl your problem is quite the same. This what you said is a pretty much amateurish point of view. You don't comprehend what the problem is, you like a man in the street judge the book by its cover. You don't even want to assume that the problem can be more complicated.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
22 Aug 2008 /  #230
Yeah? So educate me. I'm listening.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
22 Aug 2008 /  #231
It's above :)
You merely didn't want to see it. :))

First and foremost Americans want to install missile shield in Poland to control airspace of Russia with help of radiolocators which go together with missile. The missiles itself are of none threat to Russia.

shopgirl 6 | 928  
22 Aug 2008 /  #232
You merely didn't want to see it. :))

Not a matter of wanting or not wanting to see....
What I think/know is based on my observations. I cannot understand how the Russian govt "thinks". I think Russia's behavior is more complicated than simply reacting to what other countries do....I am sure they have an agenda. It just is not clear to me.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
22 Aug 2008 /  #233
What I think/now is based on my observations.

I base my statement on Russian military doctrine and my education background. :)

I think Russia's behavior is more complicated than simply reacting to what other countries do....I am sure they have an agenda. It just is not clear to me.

Hm... :) I suspect you want to see them with some mysterious "agenda" and this look more like conspiracy theory. What do you think Poland or... better the US would do if Russia installed missile shield in Serbia or in Cuba? :) Their contraction would be absolutely similar to Russian. Now Russia basing on its military doctrine will HAVE to increase quantity of warheads, relocate known missile vehicles and aim some missiles to Poland. I assure you, Poland, the US, Germany... any country would do the same. And I should ask you now... Do you still think Europe needed that problem created by the US, by their straight military interests?
celinski 31 | 1,258  
22 Aug 2008 /  #234
Now Russia basing on its military doctrine will HAVE to increase quantity of warheads, relocate known missile vehicles and aim some missiles to Poland.

I believe I already gave you the link where Russia says the site is not an issue, so what is it?

Do you still think Europe needed that problem created by the US, by their straight military interests?

I take it USA made Russia attack Georgia and then not live up to their word that they would get out.

Russian military doctrine and my education background

Guess you would have to be there. Russia is still living in lala land that Germany killed the Polish Katyn.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
23 Aug 2008 /  #235
I believe I already gave you the link where Russia says the site is not an issue, so what is it?

Celinski, I used to think Russians are the most naive people ever. I'm changing my mind... looks like it's some Poles immigrated to the US.

On the official level nobody will tell all the truth on that issue. It's none of civilians' business. :)

I take it USA made Russia attack Georgia and then not live up to their word that they would get out.

Quite the contrary but almost right. The US gave allowance to attack SO (=to attack Russia in persons of Russian citizen living over there).

Russia is still living in lala land that Germany killed the Polish Katyn.

Somebody here made up a good termin... Polish victimhood. It's getting to make more and more sense to me.
Crow 160 | 10,257  
23 Aug 2008 /  #236
POLAND TO SIGN US MISSILE SHIELD DEAL TONIGHT

on the other side what Poles could do?

died? suffere economic blockade? another partition? sacraficed themselves in resistance to EU (read- Germany), NATO (read- fu***** dildo), USA (read- whatever)? resist to NATO expansion on their soil? be military neutral on current military alliances? Etc, etc, etc...

look what happened to Serbians!!!

just, problem is that price must be paid in any case. If, so
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,340  
28 Jan 2009 /  #237
See? There is another way:

Russia Backs Away from Kaliningrad Missile Plans

The Kremlin showed Wednesday the first signs of de-escalation of a political conflict with Washington over a planned missile shield system. Moscow is backing away from plans to station missiles in Kaliningrad following overtures from the Obama administration, which has said it would review plans to install parts of the system in Poland and the Czech Republic.

spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,604033,00.html
celinski 31 | 1,258  
28 Jan 2009 /  #238
There is another way:

I read this as Russia speaking for Obama. I stand by what I believe, Russia has no right to tell Poland they cannot protect themselves. Not to mention the on going should they move forward with the shield.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
7 Dec 2009 /  #239
Isn't it amazing how such a 'need' (LOL) based on a threat from Iran suddenly disappears? Iran can't even hit Poland, LOL. Iran has apparently upped the ante from that time (LOL again) and poses a greater threat (ROTFL).

Keep the shields to D&D

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