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Poland embraces new effort to fight anti-Semitism


Harry  
6 Mar 2009 /  #1
A human rights group and Poland's Education Ministry introduced new teaching materials for Poland's middle schools on Thursday in an effort to combat anti-Semitism.

Poland is the fifth in a group of 12 countries adopting such workbooks, after Germany, Ukraine, Denmark and the Netherlands. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe guided the project as part of an overall effort to fight anti-Semitism and other forms of discrimination.

Poland's books, for example, attempt to undermine a long-held assumption in Poland that a person cannot be Jewish and Polish at the same time. The notion has led to the exclusion of Jews from mainstream society and furthered the notion that they are foreign even though Jews first arrived 1,000 years ago.

Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Mar 2009 /  #2
You're either a Jew with Polish citizenship or a Pole with Jewish ancestry, you cannot be a Jew and a Pole at the same time, luckily knowing our right wingers these books wont last more than a year or two:)
Peter_H 3 | 47  
6 Mar 2009 /  #3
I have to say I don't find Poland a remarkably anti-Semitic country, and I'm sure I've seen evidence statistically that Poland ranks quite well in the European Union, with countries such as France and Germany logging many more anti-Semitic incidents. That said, Western European countries obviously have many, many more Jews living in them, so percentage wise the figures may tell a different story.

I also discuss Poland's Jewish past frequently with Polish friends and can't say that any of them are anti-semitic. That said, I live In Warsaw and have friends in their late twenties, early thirties, so it's quite a specific grouping. I imagine more rural, and more Catholic communities may be more problematic.

I do think there are number of areas where anti-Semitism is still a problem. Radio Maryja and its ilk aren't castigated by the Catholic Church enough for their use of anti-semitic language. The church's influence may be waning in Poland but it still has a huge influence in forming opinions.

It's also essential for Poland to address the issue of using the word Jew as an insult. I've noticed this has been used in the political arena by supposedly intelligent politicians to insult each other. If these are the leaders of the country, they should be setting a better example than using racist language, and if they can't, they should be removed from office.

I certainly think addressing the issue that one can't be a Pole and a Jew is an excellent step forward, as I have heard people express this belief.
OP Harry  
6 Mar 2009 /  #4
You're either a Jew with Polish citizenship or a Pole with Jewish ancestry, you cannot be a Jew and a Pole at the same time, luckily knowing our right wingers these books wont last more than a year or two:)

Why don't you share with us your views that blacks can not be Polish, that Roma can not be Polish, that gays can not be Polish?
Peter_H 3 | 47  
6 Mar 2009 /  #5
Leading on from Harry's question; would you say it's possible to be a Polish Muslim, Polish Buddhist, Polish Protestant?
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #6
Polish Muslim, Polish Buddhist, Polish Protestant?

yes, yes and yes. Religions change, nationality does not.
Peter_H 3 | 47  
6 Mar 2009 /  #7
so Polish Jew is also possible?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Mar 2009 /  #8
Leading on from Harry's question; would you say it's possible to be a Polish Muslim, Polish Buddhist, Polish Protestant?

Leading on from you not knowing what the hell you're writing about, religion does not define nationality.

Why don't you share with us your views that blacks can not be Polish, that Roma can not be Polish, that gays can not be Polish?

Neither does race, Jews are a peculiar phenomenon in that they're a nation beyond the borders of their own country, therefore one needs to declare himself whether he's a Jew with Polish citizenship or a Pole with Jewish roots.

You cant be both Pole and German for example, yes you can have two citizenship but there's still one nation you'll have to choose.
Peter_H 3 | 47  
6 Mar 2009 /  #9
I imagine there is little point in writing this, still.

Judaism is a religion not a nationality.
Israeli is a national of the country of Israel.
Being a Jew and being an Israeli are not the same thing.
Not all Jews are Zionists.

These are all facts.

I would broadly agree with your statement

You cant be both Pole and German

, and that would apply to being an Israeli and a Pole, but not to being a Polish Jew.

Have you read S Krajewski's book a Polish, Polish Jew? It describes how he feels Polish first and Jewish second and how Judaism is his religion and Polish his nationality. You're unlikely to agree with much of the his historical analysis, but you might be interested in his personal story.
niejestemcapita 2 | 561  
6 Mar 2009 /  #10
Jews are a peculiar phenomenon in that they're a nation beyond the borders of their own country,

such ignorance.
Being a Jew does not make you an Israeli. Jewishness is NOT a "nation".
1jola 14 | 1,879  
6 Mar 2009 /  #11
Poland embraces new effort to fight anti-Semitism

Poland should embrace fighting anti-Polonism.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Mar 2009 /  #12
Being a Jew does not make you an Israeli. Jewishness is NOT a "nation".

Jewishness is a matter of religion however their faith see's Israel as their holy land and perceives every Jew as its citizen even if only in spiritual way also nationality and citizenship are different matters, citizenship is a question of international law, nationality is the question of spiritual and cultural self indentification, based on that Jews that feel connection to Israel cannot be considered Poles.
niejestemcapita 2 | 561  
6 Mar 2009 /  #13
Jews that feel connection to Israel cannot be considered Poles.

ahhh jews that feel connection to Israel that was a quick caveat...}

and who is going to check their thoughts?

youre scary.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Mar 2009 /  #14
and who is going to check their thoughts?

Ask them

Thats why Jews should undergo simple national verification after which they would be listed as Polish-Jews or simply Polish citizens, i dont really care what you were born but what you believe in, we also have to take our history into account, Jewish betreyal of their Polish co-citizens gives food for thought about differences between Jewish citizenship and Jewish nationality.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
6 Mar 2009 /  #15
Jews are a peculiar phenomenon


OP Harry  
6 Mar 2009 /  #16
Poland should embrace fighting anti-Polonism.

Always nice to get the views of our Jewish posters about anti-semitism and Poland. Thanks for sharing.
Peter_H 3 | 47  
6 Mar 2009 /  #17
Sokrates, I think you're specifically talking about Zionists and, let's be honest, at this point in history, there are none of them left in Poland.

I think you're harking back to the pre-war era when Jewish Zionists had no homeland. Obviously, now they do. Most, not all, but most Jews who have remained in European countries obviously feel a stronger, or strong allegiance to the country they live in

, be that the UK, France or Poland. If they felt strongly Israeli, they could simply move there.

There is some validity to your argument regarding Jews with split allegiances, however, I think 'feeling a connection' is far to heavy handed. After living in Poland for so many years, I feel a connection to this country, it doesn't make me any less Irish. What about Poles in the US? Many of them, some not even born in Poland, feel more allegiance to Poland than the United States, are they any less a US national.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
6 Mar 2009 /  #18
You need to take your carpetbag and go back where you came from, Harry.

Make aliyah today.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #19
Poland nor any other country shall stop anti-Semitism as this is a self made tool. Jewish need this to continue the sole victim and benefactor of crimes. Many Jewish in the USA will tell you this. If the Nation want to stop Anti-Semitism it's simple stop buying the media or reacting when they make this claim.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Mar 2009 /  #20
Sokrates, I think you're specifically talking about Zionists and, let's be honest, at this point in history, there are none of them left in Poland.

Have you ever read "Forum Żydów Polskich"? These people message each other in private to establish a common strategy in discussions about polish anti-semitism.

There's also comments like "i'm a relgious Jewess i'd never marry a catholic", lovely little place where polish jews get together.

I think you're harking back to the pre-war era when Jewish Zionists had no homeland.

I'm talking about learning from history, its always good to learn on your own mistakes, history shows that treating Jews as Poles was a mistake, the minute they got a chance there was a mass turncoat movement in which they allied themselves with Stalins Russia.

think 'feeling a connection' is far to heavy handed.

Not really, it all boils down to what you believe in, if a Jew feels he is Polish and is ready to declare "Poland is my country and none other above it" Israel included, than in my eyes he's as Polish as you can get.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
6 Mar 2009 /  #21
Have you ever read "Forum Żydów Polskich"?

They whine there how sad they feel around Christmas time :)
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #23
the minute they got a chance there was a mass turncoat movement in which they allied themselves with Stalins Russia.

You are right here but also the ones that were in control positions in Germany, Ukraine. Jewish is a religion not a nationality and religions can alter for apperance sake. Read this on the different issues. Some is trash while other parts are fact that continues to be denied.

sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426288#post426288

OP Harry  
6 Mar 2009 /  #24
They whine there how sad they feel around Christmas time :)

So you know what Jewish people say on their forum? Good to see you keeping in touch with your roots.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Mar 2009 /  #25
They whine there how sad they feel around Christmas time :)

Actually they do! :D
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
6 Mar 2009 /  #26
A human rights group and Poland's Education Ministry introduced new teaching materials for Poland's middle schools on Thursday in an effort to combat anti-Semitism.

I wonder when Jews start fighting Polonophobia and anit-Goyism.

such ignorance.
Being a Jew does not make you an Israeli. Jewishness is NOT a "nation".

Jews (no matter IF they are religius or not) share ethnicity, culture and common interests. If that not a nation then I don't what is.
Peter_H 3 | 47  
6 Mar 2009 /  #27
Have you ever read "Forum Żydów Polskich"? These people message each other in private to establish a common strategy in discussions about polish anti-semitism.

If they are messaging each other in private, how do you know what they're saying?

There's also comments like "i'm a relgious Jewess i'd never marry a catholic", lovely little place where polish jews get together.

While I find this extremely disdainful, one person of one religion not wanting to marry someone of another religion doesn't make any comment on nationality. This says nothing to me about her feeling of being Polish. Despite what the church would like to have us think, you don't have to be Catholic to be Polish. She is making a comment about a religion.

None of the above is to say that I don't think there are anti-Polish Jews. There are many of them, but they're mostly to be found in the US not Poland.

I'm talking about learning from history, its always good to learn on your own mistakes, history shows that treating Jews as Poles was a mistake, the minute they got a chance there was a mass turncoat movement in which they allied themselves with Stalins Russia.

Here, we simply disagree. I don't believe there are the facts and figures to back up a 'mass turncoat movement' of Jews allying with Soviet Russia. But I think that's another discussion for another thread.

Not really, it all boils down to what you believe in, if a Jew feels he is Polish and is ready to declare "Poland is my country and none other above it" Israel included, than in my eyes he's as Polish as you can get.

Again, I think I broadly agree. Jews who feel Polish are Polish Jews, Jews who feel Israeli are probably better described as Polish citizens. But as I said before, now there is no impediment to these Jews making the journey to Israel, I would imagine there are very few left living in Poland.

I think it's a tricky matter of semantics, but Polish Jew is probably best applied to a Jew who feels Polish, which, I think we agree, he or she has every right to do.

I also would like to add that I still wouldn't agree with your earlier statement that

based on that Jews that feel connection to Israel cannot be considered Poles.

They're certainly entitled to feel a connection to the land of Israel in a spiritual sense, as many Christians feel a connection to the Holy Land, what's important, as you have now pointed out, is do they feel more Polish than Israeli.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #28
ethnicity, culture and common interests

I don't see this, I see a lot of lambs being lead to slaughter. The religion changes and the Rabbis are crazy. Just yesterday I read about this Rabbi with his own daughter, I find Jewish religion as depending on where they go to worship and under whom.

Rabbi cross-examines daughter in sex trial jta.org/news/article/2009/03/04/1003456/rabbi-cross-examines-da ughter-in-sex-trial

There are God fearing good Jewish people, and there are bad.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
6 Mar 2009 /  #29
So you know what Jewish people say on their forum?

I do. I also know what neo-Nazis discuss. I'm sure in your limited capacity you will conclude that I must be a neo-Nazi.

how silly

There is nothing silly when old men act like children.


celinski 31 | 1,258  
6 Mar 2009 /  #30
None of the above is to say that I don't think there are anti-Polish Jews. There are many of them, but they're mostly to be found in the US not Poland.

I would say Israel.

Here, we simply disagree. I don't believe there are the facts and figures to back up a 'mass turncoat movement' of Jews allying with Soviet Russia. But I think that's another discussion for another thread.

Please read this link from last week and you will see the connection. I am not saying all soviets were Jewish, just the majority. Even in the new movie "Defiance" as the Jewish were killing Polish, they said the Soviets were not attacking them. Well they were attacking Polish non Jewish and I know there were Jewish in Siberia CC camps, just not Communist Jews.

polishforums.com/archives/2009/history-34/rabbi-aviner-poles-collaborated-nazis-33041/13/

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