Peter, the 13% comes from Bierut. We can dismiss him as a reliable source. To be fair Jews only comprised about 2% of total security services, but at upper levels, they were well overrepresented. For about 1% of total population a 37% representation is significant, wouldn't you say. It was similar in all the satellite states and in the Soviet Union:
We're retreading old ground here. I've already said in the previous thread that I believe that the Bierut source is the best source available on these figures and given my thoughts on the IPN. If you want to pick up that thread again, I'd be happy to do so, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree, as many historians do on the subject. However, it's important to point out that, that discussion evolved out of your statement
A huge percentage of communist "security" at upper levels, were the Holocaust survivors-Jews. Being a Pole was a disadvantage at that time
This, based even on the upper 37%, is not a huge majority and does not support baseless claims that Polish-Jews were the leading force behind communism in Poland. Nor does this figure
In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin. They too, of course, were gradually eliminated in the next purges.
support Celinski's claim that the majority of Soviet leadership were Jewish. In fact, it quite thoroughly disproves it.
These are both lazy lies. And, before this turns into a flame war, I'm not calling either of you liars. These are simply characteristic of the many, many lies that seem to swim around Poland and have done for decades. For many years, I thought if you swallowed gum it would stick to your heart, and I told other kids that. Why? Not because i was a liar, but because my mother told me it was true. Poles are/were fed this Jewish stuff from grandparents and parents, who were taught it at church. The fault here lies with the Church, not with the people who believed the lie. Personally, I think many of these claims arise out of a want to excuse post-war pogroms, for which there is of course no excuse. That is just my own personal opinion.
That said, the figures above prove that neither of those majority claims are true, and I would hope now that you're aware of this, that you would both stop repeating them and inform anyone else who believes them of the real figures.
For about 1% of total population a 37% representation is significant
Yes, as I have already said in that previous thread, it is significant and it is something that Jewish historians have yet to either explore or acknowledge. It is also one of the main problems in Jewish/Polish relations. Again, I'd be happy to pick this up on another thread.
It is impossible to celabrate this shared history if the Jewish community doesn't stop spreading lies about the Poles. The ball is in their court.
As I think has just been proved above there are plenty of lies and myths on both sides and it is certainly not as simple as the ball is in their court. While lies like those above continue to be common currency in Poland, Jews are unlikely to feel welcome or positive about the country. Similarly, while Polish politicians, albeit marginal ones, and priests, who are more mainstream, continue to feel comfortable in promoting anti-Semitic views, this will continue to cause Polonophobia in Jews around the world.
And, the reverse is also true, while influential Jewish columnists and historians continue to paint a one-sided, and at times slanderous view of Polish actions during the war, they cannot expect the Polish nation to be in a conciliatory mood. I think Jews underestimate just how pivotal and calamitous World War Two was for the Polish nation. While there is understandably a focus on their own tragedy, I don't think this should necessarily overshadow the evil done to Poland, and it certainly shouldn't marginalised.
Do you mean the lack of Jewish complaints about Jewish collaboration with the Nazis? In that case I agree.
No I don't, I mean mass collaboration, in Lithuania and Ukraine specifically.
There are only excuses but no self criticism. I stated this before, and I can back it up that the biggest threat to Jews in Poland were of course the Germans, followed by fellow Jews and then, and in that order, some unscrupulous Poles, who risked being killed by other Poles for doing harm to Jews. Doing harm to Jews most likely did harm to Poles who were helping Jews.
I think collaboration is an extremely complex subject and an area that has to be trodden on carefully. We would all like to think that if we were in World War Two Poland we'd be in the Underground, gun in hand shooting SS men. But does anyone truly know how they would act until they're put in the situation? Some people collaborated because they needed to feed a starving child, some because they were blackmailed, some because they couldn't care either way and some because they were evil. It's too easy to paint all collaborators as evil, when they all had their own individual reasons for what they did.
And, to speak straight to your point about lack of examination of Jewish collaboration with Germans in World War Two, you're incorrect. There has been much work and introspection on this subject by Jewish historians. They offer both criticism and reasons. I'm happy to point you to valid books and papers.
