New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more

No problem.


I just joined the conversation but you are right (not about your God but about the thread ;)

How about looking at it this way:

god made it your homeland, then he changed his mind (typical of him) so he kicked you out of that land (god's will after all) and in the 20th century you forced your way back in and there has been a war in the area ever since? Isn't that war god's will too?

Its Hitler's standing!

Source please?


Recently I had little satisfaction because I managed to convince my atheist friend at work that he should allow his daughter to raise Catholic. I used quite cynical (and logical) argument destined to atheists with at least a bit of conservative leanings. I would not dare to raise such argument debating with a Catholic, especially the one who claim to be traditionalist. Torq, in the first place I don't understand how you manage to be traditionalist and hold such view as above? You must be some kind of ultra-modernist traditionalist. :)

There are many concepts that simply do not exist.

Very simply. I stick to the ultra-traditionalist view (held by the God himself)
that every man has a free will, so if God gives every man a free will then who
am I to deny this right to anyone?

huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/there-is-no-god-and-you-k_b_8459.html

People who write such articles simply don't understand the idea of free will.

If someone kills a child or rapes a woman - it's not God's fault but the person's
who comitted the crime. Everyone has free will and is able to use it to help
poor children in Africa for example or he can choose to be a murderer or a rapist.

If we didn't have our free will, we would be no more than robots not able to do,
or even think, anything evil. Of course God could have created us like that,
making us to be mindless automata, but he chose to give us freedom.

But let's not forget that we will have to answer for our deeds before God
and everyone will get just reward/punishment for his deeds. Simple as that.

Why is this thread now about religion and god?.

God knows !

______________________________________________________________________ _____

SeanBM makes a valid point. The thread is off topic. Would anyone like to get us back on track ?

It's been off topic since 8 am today, but not that much off topic, because when
you're talking about death camps in which Jews and Christians died, the subject
of God is very likely to be discussed.


Erm... I can try:

the death camps were a terrible thing and I hope events that took
place during WW2 will never happen again. Discuss :)

There was no Catholicism much less a Canada 3000 years ago.


Stalin's purges, Hitler's ascendancy, WWII, more Stalin, Mao's purges, Korea, more Mao, Vietnam & Khmer Rouge (Pol Pot).

Some much ignorance; so little time...

Yes yes the topic the topic! I am sure the women who wrote this article have recieved many complaints about the misinformation. Not sure if the paper printed a retraction.

However...

Anyone notice which paper the article appeared in? The New York Post which is a tabloid-like sensationalist rag anyway...

My point exactly.

Humans, as we know them today, appeared about 195,000 years ago, on this planet which is about 4.54 billion years old, in a Universe which is between 13.5 and 14 billion years old.

There was no Catholicism much less a Canada or a planet named Earth or Universe back then either.
Jesus and his followers came along about 2000 years ago. Even Judaism is only about 3300 years old.

I just want to give an example of time scale here.

Agreed. Although, it is dentrimental for the sake of historical accuracy when unknowledgeable readers take such misrepresented information as the truth or a fact. Unfortunately, when something is printed enough, time and time again in the media, this type of reader begins to believe in what is written. Hence, a sizeable proportion of this type of reader exists in the population of amost every country.

It doesn't matter if a given publication has the reputation of being intellectual, a rag, or mediocre at best. Careful editing and factual reporting is essential for the sake of accuracy. Where are the editors who filter these articles for errors prior to hitting the press, whether online or in physical print?

*I'd tried to do this yesterday.


Oh, I didn't know that when you said "he had no choice", you meant "it was the only way he could get anything done".

That's because of exactly what I've been trying to tell you all this time. The Church was the only force making these things possible. There was no such thing as 'scholarships' or 'mass media' in those days, you know.

But I don't see how that's the same thing as making it impossible to succeed through any other avenue.


Because you fail? Arguments do tend to be fruitless when all you've got on your side is popular myth and unsubstantiated rhetoric, yes. Nice try, but this is why Dan Brown gets laughed at so hard by most anybody in the habit of looking past mass-media portrayals.


Yes... because you remember so clearly those times when the Church had oh-so-much power, and all of Europe, and Asia, and several colonies on Jupiter, all catered to their every whim.

And, what exactly makes your pagan beliefs more 'traditional' and 'European' than Christianity? Because they were there first? Also rejected so swiftly!

I see that you've added, in the time that I've been typing this, a compilation of "Christian Crimes", probably from the same source from which you got your Copernicus information. Tell you what: why don't you separate from that list all the crimes ordered by the Church, as opposed to simply committed by Christians and then compare them to A History Of China, or Africa if you prefer. See how truly evil this religion truly is, and what a terrible influence it's had on the world.

This "Christians did it therefore Christianity is evil" nonsense is amateurish and stupid, and I'm really quite tired of hearing it. Really it's gotten to the point where I don't even want to say anything more than "Stalin, Mao".


The same statistics also suggest that the man abducting her is Asian and right-handed. Is this supposed to prove a point? I can argue that a ball that is rolled will never stop, because statistics say that the chances of it stopping on any one point is zero.

I don't think this person has a very comprehensive understanding of statistics.

All that higschool level information you gave us here seems to be correct, Sean.
The question is - why did you post it? *utterly confused*


What for? What does the time scale have to do with anything discussed here?

I think he wanted to says is that all these "eternal truths" as written in your holy books are fairly new fashioned things when seen in the whole picture and in 2000 years from now on they will be forgotten already very probably...


Well...I would rather say they achieved everything DESPITE of the church not because of her as the church always tried her damnest to prohibit independent thinking and uttering thoughts which were not hundredpercent bible thumping.

(We all can still watch that behaviour today...only that most only laugh about it now and nobody really listens anymore).
Not so during the dark ages as it could be very well deadly to fight the almighty church.

Who is this Dan Brown btw.?

PS: Back to the other thread...this is also a good example to show you how people can actually evolve above what their parents did think and believe.

Or the church would still have all that influence and the churches wouldn't become emptier every year....

So?

The fact that something is "new" or "old" doesn't tell us anything about it being
"true" or "false".


That's exactly what some people said 2000 years ago and what they will be
saying 2000 years from now on very probably :)

Because your Christian God has not been around for long.


Because my point was about


That you believe in God(s) X (or not) because of where you live and when you live.
About 500 years B.C. in Greece, you would be telling me you believe in Zues.


I dislike this breakdown.
They were people who were killed, not just Jews or Christians.
Perhaps it is just badly phrased?.
I would say "people were killed", rather than this.
And a lot of people need to believe there is a God but it still does not make it true.


He is the fictional writer who wrote "Angel's and Demons" and "DaVinci Code".
Both bad books and both bad movies.

Pan Kazimierz, accused me of liking him too.

Maybe people then will laugh about people who believed in this fairytale book "the bible" and not adhere to the one and only (of course true) belief as it is now fashion 2000 years later...:)

Maybe you will be the "pagan" for them in this future...


Oh god!

You see, Sean - that's the difficulty with people who are trying to discuss
Christian teology while having no idea whatsoever about it.

God is outside time and space, so talking about him in terms of "not being around
for long" is completely nonsensical.


If I was Greek, living in Greece about 500 years B.C. there would be no way
for me to be a Christian. You might as well tell me that I wouldn't drive a car
then but ride a horse instead of that. That's true. I also wouldn't own a computer
and couldn't read books of Victor Hugo for example. *utterly confused again*


Well, Jews and Christians are people, aren't they? An overwhelming majority
of people killed in death camps were either Christian or Jewish and their
religion is very relevant in this context, because they were all probably asking
themselves questions about their religion, beliefs and the role of God in their
lives.


I would feel much better if I was an atheist and didn't need to believe in God.
I mean - I could do whatever I wanted without wondering if it's OK or not (as
long as it wasn't forbidden by law of a country I lived in) and after I died I would
just cease to exist and I wouldn't even know that I don't exist - very comfortable
indeed.

That's why a lot of people need to believe that there isn't God. It simply makes
their life more comfortable.

I think you exchange your God with a human conscience.

That would make every un-believer to people without conscience.
It's exactly these views which make the official church (and her followers) so detestable to many...

Not at all. All I'm saying is that for a lot of people their atheism is simply
an excuse to live a comfortable life. I know many people like that.

As many christians go sundays to their pastor to get absolved for all they did to get their comfortable, quiet conscience back???

As far as I know pastors (protestant presbiters) do not give absolution as there
is no sacrament of penance in protestant churches.

In Catholic Church, however, there are certain conditions that have to be met for
the sacrament of penance to be valid and it's not only about people's conscience.
If you're really interested in Catholic theology, sacrament of penance etc. etc.
then there are a lot of forums on which you can get more detailed information.

If you think that it's so easy to confess your sins and meet all the conditions
for proper absolution then I suggest you try it one day :)

Anyway - it is quite hilarious that I don't mind when somebody tells me that he/she
is an atheist, pagan, discordian or whatever. Very well - it's their choice.
However, when I say that I'm a Christian then, no matter on which forum I post,
all those atheists and home-grown philosophers are trying like crazy to prove that
I'm wrong or ridicule my beliefs. They can't just let it go. Funny as feck :)

I think this "absolution" is such a hilarious concept to me like a baby born with a sin! :)


Maybe a backlash of centuries being tried to beat down with the bible...tries to be converted by every christian they run about?

But if it's a solace to you...most have not such a problem with your spirituality as with the institution "church".
Spirituality was with the humans since they became aware and probably will be a part of us for always.
But the churches and their institutiones, rules and books come and go...

peace

pax tibi

It is completely nonsensical.
If you are just going to apply magic that makes God so wonderfully disappear from everything, there is no debate of discussion.


That is my point free thinker, why are you a Christian now?, having been brought up in a country where only 90% of the population are Catholic. (rhetorical)

Did your God jump out from behind a tree only 3000 years ago? Has he been hiding all this time?.
Or was Zues and Thor and your God the same thing?.


Lets face it, they had very very good reason to question their religion, beliefs and the role of God in their lives, when being systematically killed.

Or was it God's divine plan?.


That is not true and a typical assumption about Atheists.
Was your father an Atheist?.
You claim moral superiority from you bible but it simply is not true that a believer is any more morally correct in his life than an Atheist.

Unlike religious people, i have to take full responsibility for my actions, no confession, no absolvusion of sins, no blaming it on "God's divine plan", no blaming it on the Devil, nothing, just me in the universe.


Just because you feel comfort from a God, is no reason for it to be true.


WHAT? see above.

Where was the collective German conscience in the 1930's and 1940's?

The secular regard morality not as absolute, but as relative.

So instead of moral absolutes, the secularist holds legal absolutes. "Legal" for the secularist is what "moral" is for the Right.

The religious have a belief in God-based moral law, and the secularist believes in man-made law exists as moral law.

This is the exact reason why the secularist is infatuated with creating law. It gives them the power to mold society just as Judeo-Christian values did in the past. Secularist ideals (climate change, universal health care, unchecked welfare programs) function as a religion.

Since it lacks the self-control mechanism that is a major part of religion, the secularist passes more and more laws to control people.

There is the direct link between the decline in Judeo-Christian religion and the increase in governmental laws controlling human behavior.