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New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more


Harry  
22 Jul 2009 /  #61
And thus with Stalin's death communism ended in Poland and democracy flurished, right?

Not at all. But the excuse 'Stalinism' looks decidedly dodgy when talking about things that happened more than three years after his death. It's a bit like blaming Hitler for the Kielce pogrom.

And you want to know why a UB camp continued to operate?

Nice of you to finally admit that the camps were Polish run. You usually insist that they were NKVD camps....

Take your friend with you.

I'd like to see the back of that moron too. Do try to remember that you're a closer friend of mine than he is.

Anyway, so do you think these 'mistakes' in the papers are unintentional or deliberate?

I am sure that the vast majority of them are unintentional displays of ignorance.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
22 Jul 2009 /  #62
You mean expell all the Germans from the 'recovered territories'?

That's a friendly way of saying it. Today it's called ethnic cleansing. It not only happened in what you call the 'recovered territories', but also in the areas of pre WW2 Poland. And it cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

He is very much just throwing crap.

Except for "final solution" (I admit that was on purpose), nope. I'm just trying to make you guys use your brains (if available...), take at least some responsibility for Poland's past, and stop lamenting about how badly the Poles are treated.

So what prevented them from carrying it out,

It must be very comfortable to forget the negative things of Poland's past. They did carry it out.

Stalinism, ever heard about it?

Here we go again: just another stupid excuse.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
22 Jul 2009 /  #63
I'm just trying to make you guys use your brains (if available...)

It must be very comfortable to forget the negative things of Poland's past

lol. Right. Start making a use out your brains, Poles, by stopping to remember what could have let to some results.

Focus on 1945 and Polish 'dark secrets', forget about what happened in 1941.
Focus on 1941 and Polish 'responsibility', forget about what happened in 1939
and so on..

Just tell me where should I send my check and whom should I apologize to for this bloody monster within, responsible for blood spill over the ages.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
22 Jul 2009 /  #64
Easy_Terran

Ethnic Cleansing:
"However, ethnic cleansing in the broad sense - the forcible deportation of a population - is defined as a crime against humanity under the statutes of both International Criminal Court (ICC) and the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY)." [Wikipedia]

Death Camp:
"A concentration camp where prisoners are likely to die or be killed." [Princeton University]

Darfur Genocide:
"The UN estimates that up to 300,000 people have died..." [static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.rnw.nl/internationaljustice/icc/Sudan/0812 04-sudan-genocide-redirected]

Questions:
1. Was the German population forcefully removed from Pomerania, Silesia and pre WW2 Poland?
2. Were thousands of people tortured and killed in the so-called labour camps of Poland?
3. How many people died during the expulsion of the German population?

Answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes, by Polish camp commanders and guards and, most likely, with the acceptance of their superiors
3. Lowest estimates: 400000 - 600000 in the course of the expulsion measures

You do the thinking. And don't tell me it was all the Russians fault and the Germans deserved it.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
22 Jul 2009 /  #65
Ethnic Cleansing:

Why did so many Germans stay in Poland for years if not for ever?

Death Camp:

How many death camps did Poland build to imprison and kill people in them?

Darfur Genocide:

You want the Poles to take a blame for Darfur, too? ok, I am open to suggestions.

Questions:
1. Was the German population forcefully removed from Pomerania, Silesia and pre WW2 Poland?
2. Were thousands of people tortured and killed in the so-called labour camps of Poland?
3. How many people died during the expulsion of the German population?

Answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes, by Polish camp commanders and guards and, most likely, with the acceptance of their superiors
3. Lowest estimates: 400000 - 600000 in the course of the expulsion measures

Again, focus on 1945, forget about years of hell prior to it. Poles! bent your shameful, sinful heads! Ruhe! Ich habe gesagt!

You do the thinking.

Yeah.... I think it's rather disgusting what you're doing here.

nd the Germans deserved it

Of course not! The Poles should have built at least 100 of churches and praise Hitler and other genocidal saints in them!
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
22 Jul 2009 /  #66
You want the Poles to take a blame for Darfur, too?

No, the emphasis was on 'genocide'.

Again, focus on 1945, forget about years of hell prior to it.

Don't call someone else an animal if you behave like one yourself.

The Poles should have built at least 100 of churches

Nah. What the Poles did was to destroy most protestant churches and cemeteries.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
22 Jul 2009 /  #67
No, the emphasis was on 'genocide'.

Oh, me so stupid, me no understand.

Don't call someone an animal if you behave like one yourself.

Get into shoes of people who survived a hell provided to them by loving neighbours, then speak up.

Quite the opposite: what the Poles did was to destroy most protestant churches and cemeteries.

Oops! Maybe some Polish losers from Warsaw got ****ed when few month earlier the Germans leveled their city, systematically, zee German style, burning buildings down one by one?

Honestly, boy...

File a claim with Hague, officially try to make the Poles GUILTY OF LIVING.
Now, **** off.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
22 Jul 2009 /  #68
Easy_Terran

Yes, yes ... always in denial, always blaming the others, never ever take any responsibility ... the stereotypical Pole is alive and well ...

Sad to see.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
22 Jul 2009 /  #69
So many holier than thou people around here.
Let's look at the official stance of Israel on the subject of Polish concentration camps:
We, being Jews and Israelis, with reject resolutely terminology such as "Polish concentration camps". These prejudicial and erroneous phrases represent primarily testimony about ignorance and lack of understanding of fundamental historical truth.

rzeczpospolita.pl/przeciw/peleg_ang.html

The camps were located in German-occupied Poland, the European country with by far the largest Jewish population, but they were most emphatically not "Polish camps".

This is not a mere semantic matter. Historical integrity and accuracy hang in the balance.

American Jewish Committee
ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=1531911&ct=873437

Avner Shalev, Yad Vashem's director general, said his group supports Poland's wish to see Nazi German guilt emphasized in the name, but also wants the word "extermination" added to underline that Adolf Hitler's regime sought to wipe out European Jewry.

jpost.com

When we talk to an average Joe a concentration camp means one that was in operation during WW2. We, then, do not talk about American, Polish, Italian or Japanese concentration camps. The use of the term "Polish concentration camp" is a pure malice and an attempt at sensationalism.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
22 Jul 2009 /  #70
Yes, yes ... always in denial, always blaming the others, never ever take any responsibility ... the stereotypical Pole is alive and well ...

Sad to see.

Yaaawwwnnn....
p!ss off
pawian 195 | 19,915  
22 Jul 2009 /  #71
Not at all. But the excuse 'Stalinism' looks decidedly dodgy when talking about things that happened more than three years after his death. It's a bit like blaming Hitler for the Kielce pogrom.

You just don`t know the history of 1950s. Stalin died in 1953, but the system, by pure force of inertia, continued to murder even after his death. E.g., Polish pre-war officers were tried and sentenced to death in 1954.

Political prisoners were released after Ocotber 1956, the time when stalinism finished in Poland.

Except for "final solution" (I admit that was on purpose), nope. I'm just trying to make you guys use your brains (if available...), take at least some responsibility for Poland's past, and stop lamenting about how badly the Poles are treated.

OK, it is yuor right. But why are you doing it by means of truth distortion and pure lying , is a mystery to me..... :):):)

It must be very comfortable to forget the negative things of Poland's past. They did carry it out
Here we go again: just another stupid excuse.

I agree, although you cannot seriously blame the crimes of the Polish communists on the Germans.

No. If any crimes were committed on innocent Germans by Poles, and we know there were some acts of retaliation for the horrors of the German occupation in Poland, I am not going to sweep it under the carpet.

I don`t need to make up any excuses. I can openly admit: yes, a few thousand Germans, some of them former Nazi functionaries or Volksdeutche, but also many innocent ones, including women, children and the elderly were killed or left to die in concentration camps run by Polish communist forces, controlled by Soviet NKVD, after the war.

Well? Satisfied?

Questions:
1. Was the German population forcefully removed from Pomerania, Silesia and pre WW2 Poland?
2. Were thousands of people tortured and killed in the so-called labour camps of Poland?
3. How many people died during the expulsion of the German population?
Answers:
1. Yes
2. Yes, by Polish camp commanders and guards and, most likely, with the acceptance of their superiors
3. Lowest estimates: 400000 - 600000 in the course of the expulsion measures
You do the thinking. And don't tell me it was all the Russians fault and the Germans deserved it.

As for point NO 1, it was the allied powers which decided about the replacement of German population. Hence, go to complain to US, Great Britain and Russia. Poland had nothing to do with it. :):):):)

As for point NO 2, I already commented on it above.

As for point NO 3, most German victims took place during the winter evacuation from the territories taken by Soviet offensive in 1945. Scared Germans tried to run away from the Red Army but they died en masse on roads and in bombed cities, e.g., Dresden.

Poles had nothing to do with it.

Why are you distorting the truth in numbers 1 and 3 and demand that Poles acknowledge someone else`s sins????

Don't call someone else an animal if you behave like one yourself.

How can I call you? Liar, liar?? :):):):):)

Nah. What the Poles did was to destroy most protestant churches and cemeteries.

Another lie. I drive through seaside areas every year. Not a single church was destroyed, they stand sound and safe. I have hundreds of photos. Of course, they were converted to catholic sites.

PS. Hey , I am still waiting for your translation of the German text. I thought you are proficient in German, so quickly you offered me the quote to discuss.....

Or are you better in Russian??? :):):):):):):)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,204  
22 Jul 2009 /  #72
Well? Satisfied?

Yes, I am

...can we close this now?
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
22 Jul 2009 /  #73
Well? Satisfied?

Not really, because it's not enough that you admit it. I actually believe that you mean what you say, but how many of your "kind" are there in Poland? Essentially, I would like to hear something from the Polish government.

...truth distortion and pure lying

That's what you say it is. I bet there are plenty of other people who would see it differently. Let's call it "different opinions" instead.

Not a single church was destroyed

I had the pleasure to travel through Poland from Szczecin to the Poznan region a few years ago. Because I'm a little bit into genealogy I also tried to visit the places where my ancestors had lived (mainly small villages). I guarantee you that there was not a single of the former protestant churches left standing in those villages (example: Wąwelno, Gmina Sośno, pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%85welno) and that most of the cemeteries were either destroyed or neglected.

(Google and you will find many other examples.)

Many other churches I saw lost their towers and were converted into sheds for agricultural machinery for example. Others were turned into catholic churches, as you said.

In recent years it got better though, and quite a few old cemeteries were restored.

As for point NO 1, it was the allied powers which decided about the replacement of German population. Hence, go to complain to US, Great Britain and Russia. Poland had nothing to do with it.

I agree that the allies are to blame for the loss of Polish and German territories (and the expulsion of their populations) in the east, but I still have to ask who were the ones that actually performed the expulsions? The Soviets and their willing helpers, the Polish army. So yes, Poland had a lot to do with it.

As for point NO 3, most German victims...

The number of casualties I gave was the one caused by the expulsion alone. The total number of victims (incl. refugees) is much higher. Because the ethnic cleansing was carried out by both the Soviet and Polish armies, a share of the blame definitely falls on Poland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Scroll down to 'Demographic estimates, Casualties' for details.

As for the translation:

"Furthermore, she criticizes the lacking willingness (of the Polish state) to deal with Polish crimes against Germans or with Polish anti-semitism. "Poland hardly ever faces its past, [...], the (Polish) public sees it's national history in the tradition of heroic myths" (??? the latter is hard to translate for me).

Or are you better in Russian

My dad was Polish, my mum is German, and I was born in Australia. Feeling better now? :-)

...can we close this now?

Very soon
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
23 Jul 2009 /  #74
So yes, Poland had a lot to do with it.

Are you saying then that the Polish people per se were responsible or the Polish government?

and I was born in Australia

Have you formed an alliance with Harry? He was born in Australia too and seems to hold similar views.

Have you been to the Polish club in Ashfield? I'm sure your views would find a willing audience there and it would give you the opportunity to ventilate them in front of a live audience, which is eminently more preferrable than posting such important issues as an anonymous expert. Go on then...

Easy_Terran

G'day mate - great avatar.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
23 Jul 2009 /  #75
Are you saying then that the Polish people per se were responsible or the Polish government?

The Polish authorities, of course.

...and seems to hold similar views

What views? Inconvenient ones? Tell me: why all this outrage just because someone has a different opinion than the one published in official Polish history books?
pawian 195 | 19,915  
23 Jul 2009 /  #76
nd that most of the cemeteries were either destroyed or neglected.

I am replying to this one only, because I don`t have time now, we are leaving on holiday on Friday and I am very busy now, one month of holiday requires 2 days of preparation.

As for neglected cemeteries, it is normal in Poland, also in US and other countries. There is one old Polish cemetery in Krakow, crumbling and shabby.

If old Polish cemeteries are neglected, do you expect special treatment for German ones?
Come on......

PS. Why don`t you open your PM box?
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
23 Jul 2009 /  #77
The Polish authorities, of course.

Oh, ok - you mean then the executive arm of the post WW2 Polish-Socialist government. If so, wouldn't it be the case then that your lines of enquiry and assumption would best be directed toward the now defunct Soviet oligarchy, given that it was they who imposed political and governmental change on Poland post WW2, unless of course your argument was that the post WW2 Polish-Socialist government found its mandate by way of an organic and popular process? Surely that's an unsustainable argument?

I'll assume that you will adopt the former view (being government imposed by the Soviets), in which case you merely point out the obvious, being that the Polish-Socialist government, under Soviet auspice (and indeed creation) merely echoed and followed orders and in doing so probably does bear an apportionment of responsibility for the crimes and atrocities you quite rightly point out as having been perpetrated.

If so, it begs the question(s) - what are you doing here and what is your point, unless you merely set out to tell us how to suck eggs?
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
23 Jul 2009 /  #78
If so, wouldn't it be the case then that your lines of enquiry and assumption would best be directed toward the now defunct Soviet oligarchy

That's simply too easy, IMHO. If I would follow your argumentation then the Vichy government in France was not responsible for the deportation of Jews to the gas chambers simply because it was under the control of the Nazis. Strange concept, don't you think?

what is your point

I dared to have a different opinion than the person in #8. After I responded that there were in fact Polish death camps ***, a bunch of "friendly natives" jumped on me and we went from there. That's all... ;-)

*** definition: see #105
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
23 Jul 2009 /  #79
under the control of the Nazis

That's your comparison and and an excuse? You DARE to compare France with Poland?

"The government lasted from July 1940 to November 1942, when the Germans finally took over all of France. Many leaders in the Vichy government continued to be powerful after the German takeover, and the period of Vichy governance in France was later extensively criticized."

"(...)This was opposed by his vice-premier, Henri-Philippe Petain, and the supreme commander of the armed forces, General Maxime Weygand. They insisted that the government should remain in France and seek an armistice."

Now, did Poland and the Poles willingly get f()cked by the Ruskies Soviets or the Kraut Nazis and happily organized puppet govs in a blink of an eye? Or they never collaborated with the Nazis and were forced to submit to the Ruskies by three We-Know-Bettah-What's-Good-For-Them, pollacks, powers?

Am I sure you don't see the difference.

Q. Why French tanks have one go-ahead gear and five reverse gears?
A. That one go-ahead is in case they were attacked from behind.

Q. Why there are so many trees in France?
A. German troops like to march in a shade.

then the Vichy government in France was not responsible for the deportation of Jews

Ahhh....Jews. Here we come to the point. Tell us more about this nest of animal antisemitism - Poland.

Au revoire, chiot.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
23 Jul 2009 /  #80
I got jumped because I have a different opinion. Sniff, sniff.
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
23 Jul 2009 /  #81
Again, focus on 1945, forget about years of hell prior to it.

Don't call someone else an animal if you behave like one yourself.

One more thing, Mr. Smarty Pants.
Read those two quoted sentences from above again. Then read your posts. Then read some books focusing on history and the events as they happend historically, date by date.

Do you see your OWN hypocrisy? Right THERE?
Do you?

Now, p!ss off.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,019  
23 Jul 2009 /  #82
Blaming Poland for something the communists did is fully not understandable by me, someone have no clue of what happened there at thoose times!

Just like blaming Norway for what Quisling did... Is it really logical?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,204  
23 Jul 2009 /  #83
Just like blaming Norway for what Quisling did... Is it really logical?

All martians???
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
23 Jul 2009 /  #84
No, everyting can be explained.

Same as today's Nazis. Who apparently were from Mars, cuz no-one ever speaks about their origins. Just Nazis. Mysterious Nazis. Landed on our Earth and took over whole Europe... then disappeared. Gone. Nobody heard about them again.

Daeniken case?
Hmm......
1jola 14 | 1,879  
23 Jul 2009 /  #85
Blaming Poland for what the communists did is indeed a slap on the face. TheOther should read up on this period of history. Here is a start:

A little later...

In fact, torture was routine even in cases of detention unrelated to any insurgent or political activity. In July 1951, a Soviet diplomat informed his superiors that

in the Province of Bydgoszcz during the peak season of grain purchase [i.e. forced grain seizure ] many arrests of middle peasants [średniacy ] took place by the militia organs. They were held in detention and beaten during interrogation.... In Bydgoszcz a peasant woman was tortured applying barbarian methods. She was interrogated and beaten and then before her very eyes the militiamen drank a shot glass of vodka each and thus 'fortified' the militiamen continued the beating.[19]

projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 13,204  
23 Jul 2009 /  #86
Same as today's Nazis. Who apparently are from Mars, cuz no-one ever speaks about their origins. Just Nazis. Mysterious Nazis. Landed on our Earth and took over whole Europe... then disappeared. Gone. Nobody heard about them again.

Not fair!
Can't they even leave us Germans our Nazis! *pouts*
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
23 Jul 2009 /  #87
Can't they even leave us Germans our Nazis! *pouts*

lol ;)
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
23 Jul 2009 /  #88
Blaming Poland for something the communists did is fully not understandable by me

And those communists were not Polish?

That's your comparison and and an excuse? You DARE to compare France with Poland?

Oh well, just another one of these "Poor Poland was the victim", "Poor Poland never did anything wrong", "It was all the Russian's and German's fault", "Stick head in the sand and deny" guys on PF. [shrug]

Final remark:
My very first impression of this forum - that hatred, bigotry and hypocrisy abound - was spot on. You serve your country really well, guys. And you wonder why you are so "popular" abroad? <g>
polishcanuck 7 | 462  
24 Jul 2009 /  #89
Have you ever been to Poland? Let me be blunt here, not offensive just absolutely honest, an average Pole is abso-fuking-lutely stupid, he's primitive. undeducated, indoctrinated, he's a simpleton.

If you want proof just read some of our Polish posters, the mind boggles, they think that because a New York tabloid doesn't correctly insert the word 'German-occupied', the whole world thinks that the Nazi death camps were Polish run!

Wow harry, harsh words for the people you live and work with everyday. I bet your partner is a pole, and your kids (or future kids) are/will be half stupid, primitive, uneducated, indoctrinate and simpletons. It is mind boggling how miserable and ****** up you are. I guess this is what happens to people like you who fail to establish careers in your home countries and have to resort to moving to such "primitive" countries like poland.

Regarding the polish vs nazi death camps, it is important to refer to them as having been nazi german camps because if they are allowed to be called polish camps then this will eventually make its way into history books!!!! This is why poles get angry when they read this ****! Few people are knowledgeable in history...

Telling lies about the past does not help Poland to deal with its past and move forwards. It doesn't matter whether those lies are saying that Poland ran death camps or that Poland never ran any concentration camps, the effect of the lie is the same.

Why don't you stop lieing?

You mean expell all the Germans from the 'recovered territories'?

Take this part of the discussion to "russian forums."

Harry, please read "eye for an eye" by John Sack (yes, he's one of your jewish brothers). He writes about jewish run death camps in poland after the krauts were driven out. All sides have blood on their hands.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
24 Jul 2009 /  #90
All sides have blood on their hands.

Finally someone summarized all three pages of this thread. And while we're at it I would like to suggest the following link for further reading:

polandsite.proboards.com/thread/257?page=1

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