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Polish-German Relations in the Present


shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #181
Brat, have you ever read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu?
Daisy 3 | 1216  
1 Jul 2007 /  #182
I haven't..
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #183
I haven't read it, but have read about it. It was a kind of Chinese "manual" for war. And I think in the early 90's in the US it was a fad among businessmen because the concepts cross-applied: knowing your enemy/competition, analyzing weaknesses, survey the terrain/market, etc.

I was thinking that with his fondness for History, this work would complement nicely.
Who knows, I may read it myself....although currently I already have a full syllabus to get through! :)
Puzzler 9 | 1088  
1 Jul 2007 /  #184
re: The good (Jews, Poles, etc.) who are demand tears and compassion and the bad ones (Germans)...who are not really victims and don't deserve any feelings at all???

No tears for them!

- As long as the Germans don't turn it upside down so that the Germans become the good ones and e.g. the Poles the bad ones. There is the tendency in the Germans to 'revise' things in this way. And this tendency is older than the WWII period, or even than the just after WWI period. The Germans aggressively attack first and when beaten up, they shed crocodile tears over their lot and blame those whom they attacked. The German self-pity is abhorrent indeed. It's the Germans who were the aggressors in WWII. They got beaten up. From the viewpoint of those with whom the Germans fought, i.e. the Allies, the German civilian losses are the enemies losses and should not be mourned as much as the Allied losses. Do the Germans mourn the civilians killed by the Germans in e.g. in England and Poland? Never heard of that! Isn't it therefore an incredible arrogance on the German part to demand that the German losses be mourned by the Allies just as the Allied losses?
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #185
No...I doubt that a big war will ravage Europe ever again!

This is the benefit of the atomic bomb.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #186
And there will be no one left to complain......game over.
Daisy 3 | 1216  
1 Jul 2007 /  #187
absolutely..I would say this is the danger of the atomic bomb
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #188
I haven't read it, but have read about it. It was a kind of Chinese "manual" for war. And I think in the early 90's in the US it was a fad among businessmen because the concepts cross-applied: knowing your enemy/competition, analyzing weaknesses, survey the terrain/market, etc.

I was thinking that with his fondness for History, this work would complement nicely.
Who knows, I may read it myself....although currently I already have a full syllabus to get through! :)

Mao used it a lot.It is about the indirect approach in strategy how to win without having to confront the enemy's hardcore power.

absolutely..I would say this is the danger of the atomic bomb

In reality the atomic bomb pacified the world because of the certainty of mutual destruction.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #189
In reality the atomic bomb pacified the world because of the certainty of mutual destruction.

When only one or two powers had the bomb, this may have been the case. When multiple governments have atomic capabilities, the game becomes more complex, and more room (simply by law of averages) for unforseen developments.
Matyjasz 2 | 1543  
1 Jul 2007 /  #190
It is rather awkward and I wouldn't be surprised if the behaviour of the Germans was a rude answer to this awkward behaviour of the hosts....

Since a school set up this trip I'm sure that it was intended to educate the students. Personally I think that it would be better to spare it to them. It's still to early for us to confront these issues... but I'm glad that we agree also on that their behavior was rude.

Quoting: Daisy
agreed, but someone should have taught them how to show some

They should have told them before then....how to react "properly"...

Do you mean that it is normal for Germans to make jokes and take pictures laughing on cemeteries or some places that witnessed tragedy?

In GB for many is Bomber-Harris still a hero...and his policy killed hundreds of thousands of german civilians...or even the forced expelling of the millions of Germans who had to flee the eastern territories (2 Millions died on this treck of misery)...did you ever hear a "I'm sorry" from the Poles???

First of all, remind me please who started the whole "lets bomb the civilians" thing first, Brits or Germans?

Secondly, since when are the poles responsible for the shifting of the boundaries after the WWII? Silly me, I always thought that it was Stalin's and Roosevelt's job.

Do you really want to compare the "London Blitz" with...say...Hamburg....Cologne....Dresden???

And do you really think that Germans would be more "gentle" in bombings if the Brits would let them fly freely over their island? Don't be ridicules.

AMEN. Imagine a bully that picks on everyone, and after he gets beaten up for it he demands from people compassion for his miserable and unfair fate. What a laugh. :)
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #191
Because anything that does not closely fit the topic gets placed here by the moderators...
I went on a trip yesterday to Phoenix, and on the way back, I stopped in Flagstaff to peruse the bookstores. I was looking for several things (which I did not find) but some thoughts came up that I wanted to share with you....

First, I was looking in a college textbook on World Mythology. The text was divided by Northern Europe (Nordic), and of course Greek, Roman, Egypt, Mayans........but nothing from Central Europe.

In history books, there is very little about South Central Europe.....only Russian, German, Franch, english, so forth....

That is why there is no knowledge here of that part of the world.....

In my opinion one German,the Bratwurst Boy managed to humiliate everyone.

I think it is very important for him to vindicate the reputation of Germany, so they are not only viewed as "the bad guys". From my viewpoint, he is stuggling with the same feelings as Vrana, who also does not want his country to be viewed as the "bad guys".

In a way, both are correct. There were good and bad on both sides.
In the DVD of the Pianist (which I have not watched yet...sitting on my coffee table at present) there is a prologue by Roman Polanski. He states that there were good Germans and bad Germans, good Poles and bad Poles. I think we all know this, but it gets lost in the larger flood of emotions.

Yes,western historians traditionally ignored the history of slavic and balcan folks

It is bizzarre.....as if they did not exist.

You know what I most recall about the start of WWI from class? That it began as a result of a miscommunication. Oh yes, there were tensions, and war was probably inevitable.....but that was not the emphasis that I received.
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #192
For example you will read hundreds of pages about medieval England or France but you will find only a few or non existent about Byzantine empire while Istanbul til the 13th century was the greatest city in the world with over one million people while London and Paris were simple gatherings of small towns-villages.Palace in Istanbul was a marvel of architecture while in London the king even Richard the lionheart could not read and write his name and pigs lived inside his tower..

Eventhough historians concentrate exactly on the history of these places.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #193
Does this "history" exist anywhere that I could find it? It will not be any any book that I have seen. Help me, please.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #194
Secondly, since when are the poles responsible for the shifting of the boundaries after the WWII? Silly me, I always thought that it was Stalin’s and Roosevelt’s job.

And here I always thought it was Poles who forcefully drove the Germans out....neither Stalin or Roosevelt...silly me!

Imagine a bully that picks on everyone, and after he gets beaten up for it he demands from people compassion for his miserable and unfair fate. What a laugh. :)

Neither were the victims of the bombings or the expellings the bullies but rather women and children nor would I ever demand from you to mourn OUR deads....we Germans are quite capable of that alone, thank you!

The German self-pity is abhorrent indeed.

For self-pity NOBODY can hold a torch to you Poles....even after 60 years you are still full of it and even try to use it internationally to your advantage...:)

PS: And for the whole "Who started it" - thingy....why not get some years back?
Without the injustices done through the Treaty of Versailles which included stealing german territories full with Germans and gifting it to other countries (like Poland) Hitler would never had become chancellor but stayed a painter (failed or otherwise).

But he promised the Germans to make things right again and they believed him...
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #195
Borders of Poland shifted for centuries. My understanding is that Poland, way back in history, was HUGE. It guess it really depends on how far back you want to look.

What if Poland decided that they wanted ALL their territory back?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #196
What if Poland decided that they wanted ALL their territory back?

If you go even further back germanic tribes hunted in all the lands what is now Poland or the Baltics...what if Germany wants ALL her lands back???
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6146  
1 Jul 2007 /  #197
what if Germany wants ALL her lands back???

Let me guess... nothing ?

the injustices done through the Treaty of Versailles which included stealing german territories full with Germans and gifting it to other countries (like Poland)

Which territories ? Give us some laugh.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #198
Which territories ? Give us some laugh.

What?
Did you already forgot that if it had not been for the generosity of the victors of WWI there wouldn't had been a Poland???

A generosity at the costs of the Germans....

Actually Poles must be glad about the wars...they accumulated always more land from Germany!
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #199
I think it is very important for him to vindicate the reputation of Germany, so they are not only viewed as "the bad guys". From my viewpoint, he is stuggling with the same feelings as Vrana, who also does not want his country to be viewed as the "bad guys".

In a way, both are correct. There were good and bad on both sides.
In the DVD of the Pianist (which I have not watched yet...sitting on my coffee table at present) there is a prologue by Roman Polanski. He states that there were good Germans and bad Germans, good Poles and bad Poles. I think we all know this, but it gets lost in the larger flood of emotions.

You do not understand the approach of Bratwurst.He does not discriminate between Nazis and not Nazis.He speaks about germans generally suffering.
(Mind you in West Germany entnazifizierung was not especially deep).
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #200
He does not discriminate between Nazis and not Nazis

I came to the conclusion that this attitude is discernable only when he feels strong need to defend himself. I don't pereceive that this is his personal belief.

I will try to pay more attention...
Amathyst 19 | 2700  
1 Jul 2007 /  #201
Thank goodness I live on an Island none of this who stole who's land....

I personally think its time to move on we are all adults here and know right from wrong and understand that what happened was a terrible thing. We're all Europeans and should leave the past in the past, maybe we would even get along a little bit better if we did,

Im part Jewish but you dont hear me banging on about how badly the Jews have been treated, trust me they have been treated badly for a lot longer than the Polish have.

Anyway thats my 2p worth
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #202
if it had not been for the generosity of the victors of WWI there wouldn't had been a Poland???

Let us not forget that Poland also disappeared from the map for a period of time. That has not happened to Germany.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #203
A Germany didn't even exist till 1871!

Till then this rug of litle or bigger states was a happy playground for the bigger neighbouring powers too!
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #204
I came to the conclusion that this attitude is discernable only when he feels strong need to defend himself. I don't pereceive that this is his personal belief.

I will try to pay more attention...

If you read his former posts he is actually proud of the Nazi military achievements in WW2.I doubt if his relatives who fought then have regreted it.

He used the military symbol of Wehrmacht the iron cross in his avatar and now he uses a typical germanic,runic man,what was supposed to be the archetype of Aryan race.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #205
If you read his former posts he is actually proud of the Nazi military achievements in WW2.I doubt if his relatives who fought then have regreted it.

I did read those...and I got very upset about it. But later I came to a different understanding from other things he said.

When Brat first came here I got so very, very annoyed with him. I wanted him to go away. But I kept reading. It's possible that those posts are still there, but if someone says something pivotal, and the post is relegated to one of the "Random Chats" with or without abuse, it will be gone forever, and can be missed. Can't even trust the transcripts in these threads for continuity!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #206
He used the military symbol of Wehrmacht the iron cross in his avatar and now he uses a typical germanic,runic man,what was supposed to be the archetype of Aryan race.

Erm...the Iron Cross is used even today...and it was one of the most famous signs before Hitler was a glint in somebody's eye!

And now you pic on my avatar??? :)
This "runic" man is from the Nibelungen Saga...centuries old...even far before someone developed the word "Aryan"...

What is it with you?

Presenting MY viewpoint makes me a Nazi?
Is that the best argument you have???
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #207
now he uses a typical germanic,runic man,what was supposed to be the archetype of Aryan race.

He did this because Patrycja and I were giving him a hard time about the avatar that came after the iron cross (a very freaky doll troll thing) so he changed it for us. :)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #208
>>"There was no miscommunication at all.The german buisenessmen,the heads of industries and the prussian aristocracy had planned very carefully the attack and waited for the time when the circumstances would be ideal to set it in motion.The german army had already the plan for the attack from 1907,the ingenious plan Schlieffen and waited for the orders to realize it."<<

That's a lie!

All sides were geared up for war....not only Germany!
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #209
What is it with you?

Presenting MY viewpoint makes me a Nazi?
Is that the best argument you have???

Your viewpoint is not very far from nazi one.Anyway this is taboo word.
Why do you prefer to use such nationalistic symbols?You know that german nationalism is connected with nazism in the other countries and this is a polish forum.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #210
a very freaky doll troll thing

...a very cuddly one I found...:)

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