I think I know, but I want to hear it from you...
Hmmm....
Maybe that many Germans had a reason to decide for the Nazis, to follow Hitler...and that this reasons had much to do with WWI and the aftermath.
That they didn't choose the Nazis mainly for going to kill Poles or Jews but to regain dignitiy and land.
Hitler promised them all that, they believed him and paid dearly for it.
But they weren't lunatics who did know from the start where all this would lead to....
Brat, did you ever read/view video in all the posts in my diversity, culture tolerance thread? It clearly shows that what happened with Hilter can happen anywhere...it is very easy in fact to "condition" one group to hate another.
It was at this time that you and I really began to "butt heads". If you are less emotional now, I would like you to revisit that thread. Not only Germans have been susceptible, it continues today in many places around the globe.
I am surprized that you missed my meaning.....it supports the idea that Germans were deceived by a charismatic leader....
You want us to believe that the Germans died for the good of Austria?Man even an Austrian would laugh by that.
"...After Sarajevo, Count Leopold von Berchtold, the Austro-Hungarian Foreign Minister, drew up a letter for the Emperor Francis Joseph to sign and send to Wilhelm II to try and convince both of Serbia's responsibility.
On July 6th, Wilhelm II and his Imperial Chancellor, Theobald von "Bethmann-Hollweg, telegrammed Berchtold that Austria-Hungary could rely that Germany would support whatever action was necessary to deal with Serbia -- in effect offering von Berchtold a 'blank check.'
Telegram from the Imperial Chancellor, von Bethmann-Hollweg, to the German Ambassador at Vienna. Tschirschky, July 6, 1914 ..."
net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/1914/blankche.html
"Germany, allied to Austria-Hungary by treaty, viewed the Russian mobilisation as an act of war against Austria-Hungary, and after scant warning declared war on Russia on 1 August."One Thing Led to Another
*
Austria-Hungary, unsatisfied with Serbia's response to her ultimatum (which in the event was almost entirely placatory: however her jibbing over a couple of minor clauses gave Austria-Hungary her sought-after cue) declared war on Serbia on 28 July 1914.
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Russia, bound by treaty to Serbia, announced mobilisation of its vast army in her defence, a slow process that would take around six weeks to complete.
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Germany, allied to Austria-Hungary by treaty, viewed the Russian mobilisation as an act of war against Austria-Hungary, and after scant warning declared war on Russia on 1 August.
firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm
For example do you think that communism could ever prevail in USA given the american circumstances?It is certainly impossible.
No, but a do think that a charismatic leader could step in during hard times, promising good times, and the sheep would follow without any worries!
I mean that is
exactly what got Bush elected....there was a liberal backlash, especially after Clinton's indiscretions....the religious right in this country wanted
conservatism back with a vengeance....and they accepted
the Bush package with little consideration of what else they were getting in the Bush admin!!!!!!!!
re: And here I always thought it was Poles who forcefully drove the Germans out....neither Stalin or Roosevelt...silly me!
- Well, if you yourself admit: 'silly me,' then be it. :) So you have always thought the Poles 'forcefully drove the Germans'? So that's what they teach you in Germany? By the way, did Germans, along with the Russians, partition Poland in the late 1700s, or not? Did you grab e.g. Gdansk (called by you: Danzig) from us in 1700s, or not? How much Polish teritory did you grab as a result of partitions? Did you chase out Poles from their homes during WWII and put in their place German settlers, or not?
re: Neither were the victims of the bombings or the expellings the bullies but rather women and children
- The Germans as a nation were the bullies during WWII. The vast majority of you backed a murderous and crazy regime (yes, Hitler was crazyin that he underestimated the power of the British Empire, then of Russia). You started an aggressive war. You bombed and shot down civilians in Poland, Yugoslavia, England. You didn't care about their fate. You expelled countless people from their homes. You got paid back by the same coin. You brought it down upon yourselves.
re: nor would I ever demand from you to mourn OUR deads....we Germans are quite capable of that alone, thank you!
- Well, I thought you were demanding pity for the Germans in the following utterance: 'The good (Jews, Poles, etc.) who are demand tears and compassion and the bad ones (Germans)...who are not really victims and don't deserve any feelings at all???No tears for them!'
Or you perhaps demanded it not from us, Poles, only from e.g. the English and American members? If yes, then why? Why would you divide Polish Forum members like that?
re: For self-pity NOBODY can hold a torch to you Poles....even after 60 years you are still full of it and even try to use it internationally to your advantage...:)
- Even your postings seem to indicate that it's Germans who pity themselves beyond measure, absurdly; they pity themselves to such an extent that they demand from their victors the same treatment as the victors' own war casualties. Besides, I think that you're scared to say that you think it's actually the Jewish people who pity themselves beyond measure. Don't be such a coward, butty; let go what you really think. :)
Yes, even 60 years after the war we Poles still feel its effects, and we feel uneasy when numerous Germans try to falsify history, portraying themselves as the victims of the Poles in WWII, accusing us (along with many zionists) of 'antisemitism' (to divert attention from their dark deeds), making property claims, belittling and ridiculing their war crimes against the Poles (I mean here ethnic Poles).
re: Did you already forgot that if it had not been for the generosity of the victors of WWI there wouldn't had been a Poland
- In November 1918, soon after the end of WWI, Poland became free again; the German and Russian occupiers were kicked out. What's so diminishing that countries stronger than us, such as Great Britain and France, recognized us as an independent country? If it's diminishing, then also the Allied recognition of West Germany (in 1949?) is diminishing. Actually, the Allies, especially the Americans from Roosevelt's entourage (e.g. the Jewish guy Morgenthau), fed up with the German pugnacity and destructive role in Europe for ages, had plans to convert the Germans into an agricultural nation e.g. by destroying the Ruhr region. You avoided this fate only by the hair's breath. Now is that diminishing, or not? ;)
Enough said.... I feel so tired by all this. And I myself would feel happy if we all could really forgive each other, shake hands, give each other a hug, cry together over the killed Poles, Germans, Englismen, Americans, Serbs, Czechs, Russians, Finns, and all others, drink toasts to the memory of the war dead. That would be good for Europe indeed. But is it possible today? Is it possible if there are folks with such an attitude as that of Butty? May Heaven allow me live long enough to witness a Europe where all nations, including Poles and Germans, love each other like brothers.
I can only say that if the Germans changed their contemptuous attitude towards us, then we would change our attitude towards them in an eye wink.
We could like you (almost the same) as we like e.g. the Brits.
:)
re: You bombed and shot down civilians in Poland, Yugoslavia, England.
- Actually, I don't know about shooting down of English civilians by the Germans. My sentence should therefore sound: You bombed civilians in Poland, Yugoslavia, England; you shot them down en masse in Poland, Yugoslavia and in other occupied countries.
