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Polish-German Relations in the Present


shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #211
Brat, what is it (the underlying issue) of perceptions of Deutchland that is most bothersome for you? What do you want people to understand, that you feel is missed?

I think I know, but I want to hear it from you...

Southern.....a question awaits you on Random Chat....
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #212
Why do you prefer to use such nationalistic symbols?You know that german nationalism is connected with nazism in the other countries and this is a polish forum

Hey...that's just a handsome man with long blond hair and muscles...so what....:)
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #213
I notice a sword as well.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #214
I think I know, but I want to hear it from you...

Hmmm....

Maybe that many Germans had a reason to decide for the Nazis, to follow Hitler...and that this reasons had much to do with WWI and the aftermath.

That they didn't choose the Nazis mainly for going to kill Poles or Jews but to regain dignitiy and land.
Hitler promised them all that, they believed him and paid dearly for it.
But they weren't lunatics who did know from the start where all this would lead to....
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #215
Yes but the Germans attacked.The other countries had defensive plans.
Accept from Russia which was forced by the French to attack to relieve them from the german pressure.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #216
I notice a sword as well.

Yeah...well...at that time a man of world just HAD to have one...:)

Yes but the Germans attacked.The other countries had defensive plans.

They attacked to honor their alliance with Austria...so much for loyalty and what it get's you! :(
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #217
Brat, did you ever read/view video in all the posts in my diversity, culture tolerance thread? It clearly shows that what happened with Hilter can happen anywhere...it is very easy in fact to "condition" one group to hate another.

It was at this time that you and I really began to "butt heads". If you are less emotional now, I would like you to revisit that thread. Not only Germans have been susceptible, it continues today in many places around the globe.

I am surprized that you missed my meaning.....it supports the idea that Germans were deceived by a charismatic leader....
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #218
Exactly they trusted Hitler.They blame him because he failed,not because of the murders.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #219
I notice a sword as well.

What would you choose for his avatar Southern.....be nice, or at least objective.
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #220
They attacked to honor their alliance with Austria...so much for loyalty and what it get's you! :(

You want us to believe that the Germans died for the good of Austria?Man even an Austrian would laugh by that.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #221
They blame him because he failed,not because of the murders.

I'm sorry but if everything would had been known to the Germans to what choosing Hitler would lead to I really, really, really doubt they would act the same...
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #222
I am surprised that you missed my meaning.....it supports the idea that Germans were deceived by a charismatic leader....

No,not at all.What happened with Hitler could happen only in Germany.National socialism was absolutely and deeply german cultural product.No other land had similar background.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #223
You want us to believe that the Germans died for the good of Austria?Man even an Austrian would laugh by that.

"...After Sarajevo, Count Leopold von Berchtold, the Austro-Hungarian Foreign Minister, drew up a letter for the Emperor Francis Joseph to sign and send to Wilhelm II to try and convince both of Serbia's responsibility.

On July 6th, Wilhelm II and his Imperial Chancellor, Theobald von "Bethmann-Hollweg, telegrammed Berchtold that Austria-Hungary could rely that Germany would support whatever action was necessary to deal with Serbia -- in effect offering von Berchtold a 'blank check
.'

Telegram from the Imperial Chancellor, von Bethmann-Hollweg, to the German Ambassador at Vienna. Tschirschky, July 6, 1914 ..."

net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/1914/blankche.html

"Germany, allied to Austria-Hungary by treaty, viewed the Russian mobilisation as an act of war against Austria-Hungary, and after scant warning declared war on Russia on 1 August."

One Thing Led to Another

*

Austria-Hungary, unsatisfied with Serbia's response to her ultimatum (which in the event was almost entirely placatory: however her jibbing over a couple of minor clauses gave Austria-Hungary her sought-after cue) declared war on Serbia on 28 July 1914.

*

Russia, bound by treaty to Serbia, announced mobilisation of its vast army in her defence, a slow process that would take around six weeks to complete.

*

Germany, allied to Austria-Hungary by treaty, viewed the Russian mobilisation as an act of war against Austria-Hungary, and after scant warning declared war on Russia on 1 August.

firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #224
But they weren't lunatics who did know from the start where all this would lead to....

Please listen carefully to my words....so you will understand.

I hear you. I believe you. This is your truth/reality/perception.
In your qwest to get his message across, you have sometimes unwittingly created the opposite image. You may be unaware of that.
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #225
I'm sorry but if everything would had been known to the Germans to what choosing Hitler would lead to I really, really, really doubt they would act the same...

I think the Germans knew very well what Hitler did and the majority agreed.What did they oppose?The germanization of Czechs?The use of Poles as slave workers?The formation of colonies in Ukraine?The rule over Balcans or the unification of european economy under german currency and political control?The anti-communist military raid?Hitler's dreams were not without support from an overwhelming majority.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #226
No,not at all.What happened with Hitler could happen only in Germany.National socialism was absolutely and deeply german cultural product.No other land had similar background.

I don't think you would say that easily if you recognized that social experiments have produced same results on a consistent basis. If you get into mechanisms of social psychology and the phenomenons that occur in groups ("group think", mobbing, etc.)

one can see exactly why these things occur. I see some of these principles at work in Balkans as well.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6146  
1 Jul 2007 /  #227
Did you already forgot that if it had not been for the generosity of the victors of WWI there wouldn't had been a Poland???

If it had not been for the Poles fighting every neighbour there would have been "Poland" - Warsaw city and a few villages around It and soon later that would have been crushed by bolsheviks, who then would have conquered most of Europe as many of your idiots in those times really believed in that idiotic ideology - soon later switched to nazism.

Actually Poles must be glad about the wars...they accumulated always more land from Germany!

Go and start the next one... maybe finally Berlin will come back to fatherland...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #228
National socialism was absolutely and deeply german cultural product.No other land had similar background.

Crap!

Millions of allied soldiers were of cultural german background (often just first generation Americans)...think alone of the US army...german names overall....so much for your cultural product!
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #229
No,no.Italian fascism,croatian ustashi and hungarian right extremism are very far from the national socialistic system.It takes certain circumstances to develop that.

For example do you think that communism could ever prevail in USA given the american circumstances?It is certainly impossible.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #230
Go and start the next one... maybe finally Berlin will come back to fatherland...

Why should we?
We already rule Europe! *bah* :)
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #231
If it had not been for the Poles fighting every neighbour there would have been "Poland"

I see some truth here.....resources were exhausted. Poland fell victim to "divide and conquer" approach...they were spread too thin. Also leadership at key points could have been better. Unlucky for Poland....otherwise the outcome would have been very different I think....
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6146  
1 Jul 2007 /  #232
We already rule Europe!

I will believe If EU declares Hasselhoff t-shirts obligatory for every citizen.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #233
For example do you think that communism could ever prevail in USA given the american circumstances?It is certainly impossible.

No, but a do think that a charismatic leader could step in during hard times, promising good times, and the sheep would follow without any worries!

I mean that is exactly what got Bush elected....there was a liberal backlash, especially after Clinton's indiscretions....the religious right in this country wanted conservatism back with a vengeance....and they accepted the Bush package with little consideration of what else they were getting in the Bush admin!!!!!!!!
Puzzler 9 | 1088  
1 Jul 2007 /  #234
re: And here I always thought it was Poles who forcefully drove the Germans out....neither Stalin or Roosevelt...silly me!

- Well, if you yourself admit: 'silly me,' then be it. :) So you have always thought the Poles 'forcefully drove the Germans'? So that's what they teach you in Germany? By the way, did Germans, along with the Russians, partition Poland in the late 1700s, or not? Did you grab e.g. Gdansk (called by you: Danzig) from us in 1700s, or not? How much Polish teritory did you grab as a result of partitions? Did you chase out Poles from their homes during WWII and put in their place German settlers, or not?

re: Neither were the victims of the bombings or the expellings the bullies but rather women and children

- The Germans as a nation were the bullies during WWII. The vast majority of you backed a murderous and crazy regime (yes, Hitler was crazyin that he underestimated the power of the British Empire, then of Russia). You started an aggressive war. You bombed and shot down civilians in Poland, Yugoslavia, England. You didn't care about their fate. You expelled countless people from their homes. You got paid back by the same coin. You brought it down upon yourselves.

re: nor would I ever demand from you to mourn OUR deads....we Germans are quite capable of that alone, thank you!

- Well, I thought you were demanding pity for the Germans in the following utterance: 'The good (Jews, Poles, etc.) who are demand tears and compassion and the bad ones (Germans)...who are not really victims and don't deserve any feelings at all???No tears for them!'

Or you perhaps demanded it not from us, Poles, only from e.g. the English and American members? If yes, then why? Why would you divide Polish Forum members like that?

re: For self-pity NOBODY can hold a torch to you Poles....even after 60 years you are still full of it and even try to use it internationally to your advantage...:)

- Even your postings seem to indicate that it's Germans who pity themselves beyond measure, absurdly; they pity themselves to such an extent that they demand from their victors the same treatment as the victors' own war casualties. Besides, I think that you're scared to say that you think it's actually the Jewish people who pity themselves beyond measure. Don't be such a coward, butty; let go what you really think. :)

Yes, even 60 years after the war we Poles still feel its effects, and we feel uneasy when numerous Germans try to falsify history, portraying themselves as the victims of the Poles in WWII, accusing us (along with many zionists) of 'antisemitism' (to divert attention from their dark deeds), making property claims, belittling and ridiculing their war crimes against the Poles (I mean here ethnic Poles).

re: Did you already forgot that if it had not been for the generosity of the victors of WWI there wouldn't had been a Poland

- In November 1918, soon after the end of WWI, Poland became free again; the German and Russian occupiers were kicked out. What's so diminishing that countries stronger than us, such as Great Britain and France, recognized us as an independent country? If it's diminishing, then also the Allied recognition of West Germany (in 1949?) is diminishing. Actually, the Allies, especially the Americans from Roosevelt's entourage (e.g. the Jewish guy Morgenthau), fed up with the German pugnacity and destructive role in Europe for ages, had plans to convert the Germans into an agricultural nation e.g. by destroying the Ruhr region. You avoided this fate only by the hair's breath. Now is that diminishing, or not? ;)

Enough said.... I feel so tired by all this. And I myself would feel happy if we all could really forgive each other, shake hands, give each other a hug, cry together over the killed Poles, Germans, Englismen, Americans, Serbs, Czechs, Russians, Finns, and all others, drink toasts to the memory of the war dead. That would be good for Europe indeed. But is it possible today? Is it possible if there are folks with such an attitude as that of Butty? May Heaven allow me live long enough to witness a Europe where all nations, including Poles and Germans, love each other like brothers.

I can only say that if the Germans changed their contemptuous attitude towards us, then we would change our attitude towards them in an eye wink.

We could like you (almost the same) as we like e.g. the Brits.
:)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #235
Yes...and the Americans have television, free press, the internet, a working democracy and all that.

Imagine Germany without all that but only state media which filters the truth...
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #236
Imagine Germany without all that but only state media which filters the truth...

Darling, please know that American media is very heavily filtered!!!!!!!!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 12058  
1 Jul 2007 /  #237
fed up with the German pugnacity and destructive role in Europe for ages,

Erm...yes? For ages???

Care to explain?

I really thought it was the Brits and the French with their big empires who fighted regularly across the continent and conquered lands all over the world...

How do you think someone get's an Empire??? By talking???
Puzzler 9 | 1088  
1 Jul 2007 /  #238
re: You bombed and shot down civilians in Poland, Yugoslavia, England.

- Actually, I don't know about shooting down of English civilians by the Germans. My sentence should therefore sound: You bombed civilians in Poland, Yugoslavia, England; you shot them down en masse in Poland, Yugoslavia and in other occupied countries.
southern 73 | 7071  
1 Jul 2007 /  #239
[quote=shopgirl]The people who support Bush actively know very well why they do so.
Few have benefited financially from Iraq invasion?Huge companies undertook there reconstruction with huge profits.Who gains from oil selling,reserves and american military presence in the region?How can USA have a GDP growth of 3.5% and unemployment 4% or even less when the budget deficit reaches 700 billion dollars?Why does China and Saudi Arabia give this money to stabilize american economy?

When the economy is in such a good shape it is reasonable that Bush wins the elections.
Clinton fell because he did not manage to control the revolution of blacks in L.A.Bush has managed to control even the Hispanics.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
1 Jul 2007 /  #240
Brat, do you remember that during election coverage, Bush was declared a winner before all the electoral votes were verified.....the polls were still open....we have 4 time zones covering the US....what effect do you think that had in a very tight election? And that network that made this came was affiliated with Bush's party.

Does that sound like a democracy to you?

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