History / 64th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising [71]


...take us down from the fluffy clouds but only to make more space there for Ukrainians :) If you really see yourself as 'dirty 'as everybody else are, why are you so afraid of this Ukrainian 'dirt'? There would be no need to talk about UPA crimes if you didn't try to cover them up.


Being a Pole in Volhynia was equal to being a collaborator?


It seems that Banderists found ethnic cleansing of Poles to be military justified and not interfering with the rest of their activity, whatever it was. Killing innocent kids, old grandpas and pregnant women was much easier task than waging open war on Nazis. 60 thousand murdered Polish civilians against 3 thousand killed Nazis – UPA's military efficiency in 1943.


But isn't psychopathy primary determined by biological (inherent) factors? Environmental ones seem to be of secondary importance and won't play its role without presence of appropriate biological/neurological base.


I couldn't find anything more about Vladimir Solov'ev - a Bandera activist.

History / 64th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising [71]

It seems that Kaminski was less Polish than en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremi_Wi%C5%9Bniowiecki Jeremi Wisniowiecki was Ukrainian :)


You deserve some eye-opening material for these words.



Consider partisans/soldiers committing genocide - a demoralized by the war/brainwashed by ideology bunch who were simply following orders, and by the way vented their hate and human frustration on innocent civilians. It's well known that people are able to turn into beasts under certain conditions. It does not have to be connected with psychopathy.


As far as I remember, according to you, Poles always have to take collective responsibility and pay for alleged, even hundreds years old crimes, contrary to 'morally superior' Ukrainians.

History / History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land. [116]


I know Subtelnyj's book. From my knowledge, there were around 10 noted uprisings.
It was more about class struggle than about national liberation.


source

Regarding uprisings in the last decade of the 16th and the first half of the 17th century:


source

Even Kmielnicky didn't clearly assume his role as a 'national liberator'.

History / History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land. [116]


Maybe some example of such book (with hundreds of uprisings)? If you are able to provide any. Hmm? :)

Life / Kozak - compliment or insult in Poland? [12]


'Kozaki' are also female winter shoes, high boots :)
https://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&lr=lang_pl&um=1&q=kozaki&btnG=Szukaj+obraz%C3%B3w&oq=&start=0&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl

History / History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land. [116]


Not every person having grudge goes on killing spree. I think OUN-B's ideology was more important factor.


source: A history of fascism 1914-1945, Stanley G. Payne, Routledge, 1995
https://books.google.com/books?id=9wHNrF7nFecC&pg=PA428&dq=ukrainian+nationalism&hl=pl#v=onepage&q=ukrainian%20nationalism&f=false

And this was the result:


source: 'Harvest of despair: life and death in Ukraine under Nazi rule', Karel Cornelis Berkhoff, Harvard University Press, 2004
books.google.pl/books?id=nd9WzIkTJrAC&pg=PA295&dq=Ukrainians+with+Polish+wifes+were+ordered+to+kill+them

Another factor was that thousands of OUN-B/UPA members were former policemen who helped Nazis to kill Volhynian Jews. It was nothing new for these men to kill innocent civilians on order.

Ukrainian national identity developed in XIX century. The Austrians sustained initially very weak Ukrainian nationalism and let it grow, because they saw it as possible counterweight to much stronger and more revolutionary Polish nationalism.

During nation-building process, Ukrainians created myths of 'resistance and revival'. You can read it in: 'Nation-building in the post-Soviet borderlands' by Graham Smith, Cambridge University Press, 1988.

Life / Kozak - compliment or insult in Poland? [12]

'kozaczyć' means 'cwaniakować' 'cwaniaczyć' - 'to show off', to play/pretend to be someone cool and brave to get attention.
And 'kozak' is someone stupidly brave.
news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Polar-Bear-Attack-At-Berlin-Zoo-Where-Famous-Abandoned-Bear-Knut-Is-Being-Raised/Article/200904215260029
This woman could be called a 'kozak'

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


I think you are overreacting... As for me, I'm mostly discussing Lviv architecture. Does it make me a 'Nazi', 'uncivilized person' or a 'despicable revisionist'?

Ukrainians can't accept the Polishness of Lviv and are afraid of it – that speaks volumes about 'our good relations'. I have no problems with acknowledging that some Polish cities have more German than Polish influences.

You have rejected almost all Soviet propaganda, but the myth of 'Polish pany' and 'Polish oppressors' is still alive.
What I've written is true, confirmed by scholarly sources. Please tell me why you don't agree with it (if you don't agree).

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


Ethnic Ukrainian and Polish nobility was oppressing ethnic Polish and Ukrainian peasants.
Ukrainian nobility converted to catholic faith/acquired elements of Polish culture mostly voluntarily.
In the Cossack Hetmanate, the situation of peasants was a little better than in Rzeczpospolita. Still, the fact remains that they only changed one master for another. They now worked for landlords - Cossack nobles/officers who possessed a huge landed estates - just like 'Polish' magnates before.


Initially he wasn't fighting for any country.


A building can be designed/built/rebuilt/remodeled/renovated/founded...
As to 'designed', I've got a list of more than 40 buildings designed in Lviv by Polish architects (and there are more) - it seems like a small sample of Polish contribution (against those 4 or 5 buildings).

History / Responsibility for Murder of Catholic Poles during WWII ? [172]


30 thousand - must be some old estimates. 50 to 60 thousand Polish civilians in Volhynia alone, and around 100,000 altogether.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

In 1640, the edifice was purchased by Jakub Sobieski and was later inherited by his son, King Jan III Sobieski. The Polish-Lithuanian ruler remodelled it into a palatial residence, with spacious rooms and an audience hall where he signed the Eternal Peace Treaty of 1686.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korniakt_Palace


He never finished it. His son Paweł Jerzy did. ;)


Lwów university was founded by Polish king Jan Kazimierz in 1661, who issued the diploma granting the city's Jesuit Collegium. The Jesuits had tried to create the University earlier, in 1589, but without success.


Some of those who created Lwów:
Zygmunt Gorgolewski, Sebastian Czepek, Antoni Popiel, Jan Sadłowski, Piotr Krasowski, Franciszek Olędzki, Piotr Polejowski, Julian Zacharewicz, Zbigniew Brochwicz Lewiński, Wincenty Rawski, Jadwiga Horodyńka, Julian Markowski, Tomasz Dykas, Stanisław Stroiński, Zygmunt Kurczyński, Jan Osiński, Roman Ducheński... and more


I don't think so. My post would be extremely long if I wanted to name every building/monument, not to mention elements like paintings/stained glass/sculptures (for example in churches, and they have many authors) that are in Lviv now thanks to their Polish creators.

Lviv = Polish cultural heritage (not only, but mostly).


And Poland (The Ministry of Culture and National Heritage of RP) is financing this, for example: zik.com.ua/pl/news/2009/02/16/169792.

Lviv was the center of Polishness, now it is the center of Ukrainian nationalism. It will always be a Polish city (in terms of cultural heritage), but I'm afraid there are small chances that the city will belong to Poland again.

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]


By writing something like that, in the context of the thread, you only showed your disrespect for the victims and their families.


source: John-Paul Himka, War Criminality: A Blank Spot in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora.


But please don't construct them in Poland, because the last one (illegal) was destroyed, which caused an outrage among Ukrainian authorities and they started crying about how much this 'act of vandalism' is harmful for Polish-Ukrainian relations.

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

So tell me the difference between 'concentration camp' and 'internment camp'?
And does Norman Davies call it 'internment camp' or 'concentration camp'?

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]


Nathan, I wish you stop history falsification and denying of ethnic cleansing conducted by UPA in Volhynia/Eastern Galicia.
I understand that you agree with everything else I wrote in my comment and accept OUN/UPA's responsibility for the genocide of Poles.
Next time you write anything about 'polonization', 'colonization', Bereza Kartuska, Polish-Ukrainian war or 'oppression' of Ukrainians, I will call you: a 'whining *****' and 'cry- baby'. You can be sure of that.

History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]

Unfortunately, I can't post these pictures.

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]



Source: Matthew J. Gibney, Randall Hansen, Immigration and asylum.

rsc.ox.ac.uk/index.html?gibney


Source: Karel C. Berkhoff, Harvest of Despair: Life and death in Ukraine under Nazi rule, Harvard University Press.
[i]hup.harvard.edu/catalog/BERHAR.html?show=reviews

UKRAINE REPORT 2003, No. 66: ARTICLE NUMBER TWELVE. IPN REPORTS ON INVESTIGATION INTO VOLHYNIA MASSACRES
By Jan Maksymiuk, "RFE/RL Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine Report"
Volume 5, Number 26, Prague, Czech Republic, July 8, 2003
artukraine.com/events/ukr_rep65.htm

(at the bottom of the page)


You can call it internment camp.


By this I meant making victims out of Ukrainians, depiction of Ukrainians as the victims of Poles, injured party, narrative of victimization used by Ukrainian historians.

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]


Timothy Snyder is such historian for you? A Yale professor? ;)


Polish-Ukrainian 'friendship' can not be built on lies and victimization of Ukrainian side. The truth can not be forgotten nor sacrificed in the name of 'good relations'. We owe it to thousands of innocent people murdered by UPA in Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine.


Source: P. Machcewicz, The Institute of National Remembrance and Coming to Terms with a Difficult Past: World War II and the Communist Dictatorship, Collegium Civitas, Warsaw.


I got another curiosity for you - Dmytro Klyachkivsky, 'The butcher of Vohlynia', entered the Law faculty of the Jan Kazimierz University in Lwów. Cool?

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]


Are you serious? It is well acknowledged by both foreign and Polish historians that OUN/UPA organized genocide/ethnic cleansing of Poles in Vohlynia and Eastern Galicia. IPN is conducting investigation about it, under Article 118 of Poland's Criminal Code, which pertains to genocide.

There is no doubt which organization bears the responsibility for massacres. I don't understand how can you blame angry mobs for them. Some time ago you spoke differently.

The following paragraph summarizes OUN/UPA attacks well:


source: books.google.pl/books?id=2c6ifbjx2wMC&pg=PA31&dq=immigration+to+asylum&as_brr=3

Roman Shukhevych completed studies at Lviv Politechnic Institute.

History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

Kazimierz Damian Bąbiński ('Luboń'), commander of the Union for Armed Struggle-Home Army Wołyń, in his April 22, 1943, order to AK partisan units stated:


source: ZWZ-AK Wołyń field report no 123/III, April 22 1943. UW library, sygn. 3312: books.google.pl/books?id=Mfy2IZcbmHgC&printsec=frontcover

All AK doings were merely response to OUN/UPA action of ethnic cleansing - genocide directed against defenceless civilian population. The goal of AK soldiers was to protect peaceful civilians, women and children. The goal of OUN/UPA was entirely different: to murder - purge Wohlynian/ Eastern Galician territory of rival ethnic group. Collective death sentence was imposed on all Poles, and UPA 'soldiers' were given orders to execute it. It was not a sudden outburst of random violence, but deliberate, systematic destruction of Polish ethnic group; premeditated, well planned, coordinated action, which goal was to obtain ethically clean territory - purely strategical decision.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


And how did the Jews threaten the safety? Please, write more about it. You know exactly that it was Nazi-German anti-Jewish propaganda. The real reason for establishing the ghetto in Warsaw was entirely different.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_ghetto


Men put in the Bereza Kartuska detention camp weren't random civilians. The purpose behind establishment of such facility/institution was clear - it's meant to be a prison for terrorists and those involved in political murders and assaults, radicals; political opponents. Although, common and financial criminals were incarcerated there too. Many of those people (involved in the campaign of arson, murders, assaults, robberies, financial malversations), would end up in ordinary prisons anyway.

Anybody who insists that it was dedicated against any particular ethnicity (like Jewish Ghetto or Kristallnacht) is wrong; it was not - Poles, Jews, Ukrainians, Bielorusians, even some Germans were imprisoned there. Please find me a source postulating that Ukrainians constituted majority of incarcerated (during the whole operation time). Establishment of Bereza Kartuska prison was inspired by assassination of Pieracki by OUN - not by 'Ukrainians'. It's obvious that such detention camp, because of use of the term 'political prisoners', wouldn't be acceptable nowadays. Prison conditions were extremely harsh and I don't approve them. I don't like idea of imprisoning 'political opponents' for what they preach either, though I approve imprisoning terrorists e.g. The case of Bereza Kartuska prison isn't one-dimensional for me.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


Especially open yourself to Viktor Idzio. Ukrainian historians are always trustworthy and non- biased completely.

Ukrainian historian, Viktor Idzio, states that according to official statistics, 176 men - by unofficial Polish statistics, 324 Ukrainians[clarification needed] - were murdered or tortured to death during questioning, or died from disease, while escaping, or disappeared without trace. Most were OUN members.[5][dubious - discuss]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_Detention_Camp


It's all about Ukrainians...


(Foreign historians - here you go)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_Detention_Camp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronis%C5%82aw_Pieracki


I wish you were, Nathan.


Change Polish to Ukrainian - and the whole sentence will apply to you.

Quotes from other websites should ideally contain no more than 100 words and be marked at "quote" using the "quote" function.

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


Do you have to insult me? Do you think your arguments are more convincing because of that?
Whatever you say, Ukraine wasn't recognized as an independent/separate country. Look at the maps of Europe before and after WW2 (1939, 1945). Ukrainians served in the ranks of Soviet Army and Soviets, as Harry wrote, were invited to the Victory Parade. They surely fought for their homeland and I undestand that, but do you really expect separate invitation to be posted to Ukrainian SSR? You can't compare European Union to Soviet Union, please...


Your generalization is very unfair, Nathan. I doubt you've ever read any Polish historical book.


Stop whining about whining! And don't use such words as "decency" and "respect".
I'm really fed up with you :(

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]


Maybe because there was no such country as Ukraine before and after WW2, only Ukrainian SSR - a republic of the Soviet Union. Ukrainians fighting on eastern front (on allied side) were Soviet Army soldiers (4.5-7 million ethnic Ukrainians). Unlike them, Polish soldiers fought also on western front with French and British armies. I don't know if Soviets were invited to the Victory Parade in London.

The campaign in Poland had not finished yet when Polish troops abroad started to form. The government of Poland in exile that emerged in Paris adopted as its main goal the fight at the side of the Allies and creating a Polish army in France. This was the beginning of the Polskie Siły Zbrojne (PSZ - Polish Armed Forces) in the West which fought until May 1945 in three theatres of war: Western Europe (1940 and 1944-1945), North Europe (1940) and Mediterranean (North Africa in 1940-1942, Italy 1944-1945).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II

ww2.pl/Polish,Armed,Forces,in,the,West,23.html
ddayhell.pl/index_pl.php?go=12

History / Poland and Ukraine [240]


60 000 is the number of victims in Volhynia, I wrote about all Polish victims of UPA (120 000 - 150 000). It's from IPN site too.


I've heard only about one. IPN released one controversial publication about Wałęsa (by Gontarczyk). Does that mean the number of UPA victims is not correct? As for Zyzak's book - it was not published or sponsored by IPN.


Look, there should be no doubt that genocidal policy was pursued and implemented by the OUN/UPA. It's not about some random killings or few instances but about consistent, well organized actions of exterminating Polish civilians. The OUN equated Ukrainian independence with ethnic homogeneity. The way the killings were commited makes UPA hardly comparable to any other organization.

It's said that some A.K soldiers from Wohlynia were destroying Ukrainian villages in retaliation. The estimated number of killed vary from 2 000 to 20 000. I haven't heard about any investigation concerning it. But these killings don't define A.K. Armia Krajowa never pursued genocidal policy.


You're talking about ordinary people and their reactions. I'm talking about responsibility of authorities to ensure that genociders and their deeds are officially condemned. Kuchma made mistake, Juschenko's attitude makes situation only worse. New monuments of UPA leaders, war criminals responsible for mass-murders of Poles: Stefan Bandera's, Roman Szuchewicz's, „Wohlyn butcher's” - Dmytro Klaczkiwśkij's are popping up in western Ukraine. Roman Szuchewicz was awarded the highest honour - the title „hero of Ukraine”. This is what Szuchewicz wrote in one of his orders:

„Śmierć jednego Lacha to metr wolnej Ukrainy, albo będzie Ukraina albo lechicka krew po kolana, Polaków w pień wyciąć.
W związku z sukcesami wojsk sowieckich konieczne jest przyspieszenie likwidacji Polaków, muszą zostać całkowicie zgładzeni, ich wioski spalone (...) ludność polską należy zniszczyć.”


A monument of a person responsible for genocide of thousands of innocent civilians. Where is such monument in Poland?


Judging by their national 'heroes'... I would not be surprised if anti-polish sentiment was prevalent there.


If you can justify ethic cleansing/genocide conducted by OUN/UPA, then you can do the same with Polish politics in Ukraine. Just put it in the right context.


It could - you had Andrii Melnyk, OUN-M or even Taras Bulba Boroviec...



That's crazy. With such friends, who needs enemies?

History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

The reconciliation between Poland and Ukraine is a joke. Ukrainian government has never issued any apology for UPA crimes and ethnic cleansing. One of UPA leaders (Roman Szuchewicz) responsible for massacres of Poles recently got a monument in the centre of Lvov. Many Stefan Bandera's monuments are in Ukraine already. There will also be 'the street of UPA' in Lvov.


Maybe you would prefer photos from Poland's IPN site:

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/186/1465/Wolyn.html

These are only some examples of UPA atrocities, look carefully, so you can see how people were tortured and what you approve.


Do you really believe that's enough justification for what UPA did? So these innocent people just deserved it? You seem to forget that it was also deliberate, planned ethnic cleansing.


According to historians, OUN-UPA murdered 120 000 - 150 000 Poles.

Nobody really wants compensations, border change or Lwów. Just the truth. If Ukrainians cannot bear it, Poland should leave this useless and false 'partnership'.


And where is your respect for innocent victims of your 'heroes'?

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


I don't think your conclusion is correct.


The whole OUN isn't reponsible, only OUN-B/OUN-UPA is.

Zajac says: The whole action, because of its scope, size, precision of the strikes, element of surprising the Poles, had to be planned and prepared in advance. In the process of investigation, version about random character of killings was eliminated. On the basis of the evidence, one hypothesis is considered to be the most likely - that the decision to take action against Polish population was made alone by OUN-B leadership in Volhynia without the consent of Central Prowid OUN. This decision was made personally by OUN-B leader in Volhynia - Dmytro Kljaczkiwśkij, alias "Kłym Sawur” (posiblly with his close associates) who was in the command of whole UPA and directly of UPA Volhynia.



Nathan, I don't think you understand. People were horibbly tortured before their deaths - women, men, children, whole families. Do I have to go into details? 'Forks , scythes'? '17th century rebelion'? UPA had more than 300 ways of torturing people. It's not only about killings but how they were done! There will never be an excuse for the monstrous cruelty of UPA and its peasants. The motives behind these atrocities can be disputed, but the main goal of OUN-B is clear - to obtain lands ethnically clean before any possible postwar peace talks could be conducted.


Only in Vohlynia. Volyn is the best known case. But Poles were murdered in other places too. According to historians, the number of Poles slaughtered by OUN-UPA range from 120 000 to 150 000.


He only stated the fact – the reprisal actions occured, these actions were the consequence of UPA crimes.

I think we should end this discussion here.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


Wikipedia - yes, unsupported - no, that's why I wrote - "check references".
The other link I posted, was to show that UPA murdered Poles not only in Volyn.
I said that you are "bezczelny", because it's like laughing in someone's face, when you say: "documents of Volyn' and Katyn' are still lying in Moskow's archives". You know exactly that these documents will never be revealed and they have been probably already destroyed.

According to prosecutor Piotr Zając, Polish Institute of National Remembrance in 2003 considered three different versions of the events in its investigation. In all versions, Ukrainians were responsible, not NKVD. This hasn't changed.

You know Polish, so please read this, there are enough hard proofs to tell who is responsible for massacres of Poles in Volyn: miasta.gazeta.pl/lublin/1,35640,1568390.html

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/186/1465/Wolyn.html - actuall IPN site says explicitly who did it. We already know the truth.

History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]


Nie wierzę. Jesteś tak bezczelny Ukraińcu. I sincerely hope that you will apologise.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volyn_massacre - READ IT!!! Check references!

And not only in Volyn!
stankiewicze.com/ludobojstwo/lwowskie_a.html

Love / do polish girls consider a english man a good catch ? [126]


No.


Lol, keep dreaming.


Eastern Euro men are better looking IMO.


No, thank you, we don't need them. We still have a big population of decent men in Poland, and we can always import some Czechs or Hungarians ;).

News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]

Sorry, if it's offtop but maybe this will interest you - the British Government has officially expressed regret for NOT INVITING Polish Combatants for the famous V-Day parade in 1946.

polandinexile.com/vp3.htm