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Posts by porzeczka  

Joined: 14 Jan 2009 / Female ♀ 		Last Post: 10 Jan 2012
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Posts: Total: 102 / In This Archive: 30
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porzeczka   
28 Dec 2009
History / 64th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising [71]

I just show you that you are as dirty as everybody else, take you down from the fluffy clouds and put with the face where we all belong :)

...take us down from the fluffy clouds but only to make more space there for Ukrainians :) If you really see yourself as 'dirty 'as everybody else are, why are you so afraid of this Ukrainian 'dirt'? There would be no need to talk about UPA crimes if you didn't try to cover them up.

I wouldn't deny killings of collaborators among which were Jews, Ukrainians, Polish and so on. You work with the enemy - you are an enemy. Do you disagree?

Being a Pole in Volhynia was equal to being a collaborator?

do you really believe that UPA had nothing better to do, fighting Nazi Germans, Russian NKVD far superior in numbers and attacked instead doctors and innocent kids, old grandpas and pregnant women like some like to put it?).

It seems that Banderists found ethnic cleansing of Poles to be military justified and not interfering with the rest of their activity, whatever it was. Killing innocent kids, old grandpas and pregnant women was much easier task than waging open war on Nazis. 60 thousand murdered Polish civilians against 3 thousand killed Nazis – UPA's military efficiency in 1943.

Regarding psychopathy - does it matter whether you are genetically psycopathic (if gene of psychopathy happens to exist) or you are a psychopath due to the environmental factors? Killing a human being on a regular basis causes psychopathic damage to your conscienceness even if it wasn't there before.

But isn't psychopathy primary determined by biological (inherent) factors? Environmental ones seem to be of secondary importance and won't play its role without presence of appropriate biological/neurological base.

Where I can read more about the life of this man, Porzeczka?

I couldn't find anything more about Vladimir Solov'ev - a Bandera activist.
porzeczka   
21 Dec 2009
History / 64th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising [71]

It seems that Kaminski was less Polish than en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremi_Wi%C5%9Bniowiecki Jeremi Wisniowiecki was Ukrainian :)

compare to your Jew-loving nation?

You deserve some eye-opening material for these words.

The UPA started drafting doctors, shoemakers, tailors, and others specialist of Jewish nationality. Expediency however proved fragile, and when circumstances changed it gave away to ideology and deep-seated resentments. As soviets troops continued to advance into Ukraine and the armed struggle appeared beyond hope, these Jewish doctors were executed by the UPA.

Through 1943 nationalists guerrillas, wherever they gained control, continued to hunt down Jews who survived Nazi extermination. In neighboring Rivne, according to a captured activist, the Bandera troops literally haunted for Jews, organizing round ups and combing the forest paths, ravines etc.

At any time in any nation or state you will find at least 1% deviants, inhumane creatures, sociopaths, psycopaths who will torture, rape and murder anyone or anything just for the heck of it.

Consider partisans/soldiers committing genocide - a demoralized by the war/brainwashed by ideology bunch who were simply following orders, and by the way vented their hate and human frustration on innocent civilians. It's well known that people are able to turn into beasts under certain conditions. It does not have to be connected with psychopathy.

Mentioning him, I didn't say that the Poles are murderers, like some "historians" here try to generalize things.

As far as I remember, according to you, Poles always have to take collective responsibility and pay for alleged, even hundreds years old crimes, contrary to 'morally superior' Ukrainians.
porzeczka   
3 Dec 2009
History / History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land. [116]

Mykhailo Hryshevsky "History of Ukraine-Rus'" and Orest Subtelnyj "Ukraine: A history" :)

I know Subtelnyj's book. From my knowledge, there were around 10 noted uprisings.
It was more about class struggle than about national liberation.

It is interesting to note that in 1569, on the eve of the agreement at Lublin to unite Poland and Lithuania, it was the Rus' magnates and gentry who for the most part wanted the remaining Ukrainian lands in Lithuania - Volhynia, Bratclaw, Eastern Podolia, and Kiev - to become as Galicia had previously, an integral part of Poland.

source

Regarding uprisings in the last decade of the 16th and the first half of the 17th century:

Throughout this whole period, the Cossacks never questioned the premise that they were the subject of the Polish king. In fact what they wanted was to become recognized as a distinct estate with 'its own traditional liberties' within Polish-Lithuanian society'.

source

Even Kmielnicky didn't clearly assume his role as a 'national liberator'.
porzeczka   
1 Dec 2009
History / History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land. [116]

I'm only pointing out that it is NOT surprising that Ukrainians had a grudge against us and this fact is also very sad.

Not every person having grudge goes on killing spree. I think OUN-B's ideology was more important factor.

The theory and teachings of the Nationalists were close to Fascism, and in some respects, such as insistence of 'racial purity', even went beyond the original Fascists doctrines. This was particularly the case with stronger, more radical and youthful sector split off by Stefan Bandera (commonly refereed as the OUN-B).
It stressed the distinct racial identity and racial purity of Ukrainians compared with inferior surrounding peoples

source: A history of fascism 1914-1945, Stanley G. Payne, Routledge, 1995
https://books.google.com/books?id=9wHNrF7nFecC&pg=PA428&dq=ukrainian+nationalism&hl=pl#v=onepage&q=ukrainian%20nationalism&f=false

And this was the result:

Ukrainians with Polish wifes were ordered to kill them, along with their children; disobedience carried death penalty. A seventeen year-old-boy, born form Polish-Ukrainian couple in the village of Doshne near Ratne was forced to help kill Poles; only in this way could he prove his ukrainess and earn his right to life.

source: 'Harvest of despair: life and death in Ukraine under Nazi rule', Karel Cornelis Berkhoff, Harvard University Press, 2004
books.google.pl/books?id=nd9WzIkTJrAC&pg=PA295&dq=Ukrainians+with+Polish+wifes+were+ordered+to+kill+them

Another factor was that thousands of OUN-B/UPA members were former policemen who helped Nazis to kill Volhynian Jews. It was nothing new for these men to kill innocent civilians on order.

Ukrainian national identity developed in XIX century. The Austrians sustained initially very weak Ukrainian nationalism and let it grow, because they saw it as possible counterweight to much stronger and more revolutionary Polish nationalism.

During nation-building process, Ukrainians created myths of 'resistance and revival'. You can read it in: 'Nation-building in the post-Soviet borderlands' by Graham Smith, Cambridge University Press, 1988.

Otherwise discrete events are made to fit into the schema of national resistance and revival. Peasant rebellions, such as the 1768 Kolivshchyna, are now argued to have been provoked by national rather than class grievances

porzeczka   
1 Dec 2009
Life / Kozak - compliment or insult in Poland? [12]

'kozaczyć' means 'cwaniakować' 'cwaniaczyć' - 'to show off', to play/pretend to be someone cool and brave to get attention.
And 'kozak' is someone stupidly brave.
news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Polar-Bear-Attack-At-Berlin-Zoo-Where-Famous-Abandoned-Bear-Knut-Is-Being-Raised/Article/200904215260029
This woman could be called a 'kozak'
porzeczka   
16 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

This ridiculous topic is full of Nazis! Stay out of it everyone if you feel civilized. Those Nazis can only destroy our good relations between Poland and Ukraine, which ment destroying those countries. But Nazis don't care. We, civilized people, Poles and Ukrainians, do.

I think you are overreacting... As for me, I'm mostly discussing Lviv architecture. Does it make me a 'Nazi', 'uncivilized person' or a 'despicable revisionist'?

Ukrainians can't accept the Polishness of Lviv and are afraid of it – that speaks volumes about 'our good relations'. I have no problems with acknowledging that some Polish cities have more German than Polish influences.

You have rejected almost all Soviet propaganda, but the myth of 'Polish pany' and 'Polish oppressors' is still alive.
What I've written is true, confirmed by scholarly sources. Please tell me why you don't agree with it (if you don't agree).
porzeczka   
16 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Polish nobility ware oppressing Ukrainians as it let to revolution of Chmielnicki... Polish nobility ware short sighted as they abuse Ukrainian population for their immediate gainif the nobility took different approach and granted rights to Ukrainians

Ethnic Ukrainian and Polish nobility was oppressing ethnic Polish and Ukrainian peasants.
Ukrainian nobility converted to catholic faith/acquired elements of Polish culture mostly voluntarily.
In the Cossack Hetmanate, the situation of peasants was a little better than in Rzeczpospolita. Still, the fact remains that they only changed one master for another. They now worked for landlords - Cossack nobles/officers who possessed a huge landed estates - just like 'Polish' magnates before.

Chmielnicki, he was just fighting for his country

Initially he wasn't fighting for any country.

Porzeczka

A building can be designed/built/rebuilt/remodeled/renovated/founded...
As to 'designed', I've got a list of more than 40 buildings designed in Lviv by Polish architects (and there are more) - it seems like a small sample of Polish contribution (against those 4 or 5 buildings).
porzeczka   
13 Oct 2009
History / Responsibility for Murder of Catholic Poles during WWII ? [172]

Ukrainian UPA murdered, according to various estimates, from 30 to 60 thousand ethnic Poles in Volhynia region.

30 thousand - must be some old estimates. 50 to 60 thousand Polish civilians in Volhynia alone, and around 100,000 altogether.
porzeczka   
13 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

In 1640, the edifice was purchased by Jakub Sobieski and was later inherited by his son, King Jan III Sobieski. The Polish-Lithuanian ruler remodelled it into a palatial residence, with spacious rooms and an audience hall where he signed the Eternal Peace Treaty of 1686.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korniakt_Palace

Picture # 15 (out of 16) Chapel of Boyim (one of my favorite chapels, small and so filled with details) - built in 1671 for a rich Hungarian merchant Boyim, where 3 generations of his family are buried. I have to acknowledge, though, that his wife was Polish. :) (does he count as Polish because of that?)

He never finished it. His son Paweł Jerzy did. ;)

Regarding Lviv University Ivana Franka

Lwów university was founded by Polish king Jan Kazimierz in 1661, who issued the diploma granting the city's Jesuit Collegium. The Jesuits had tried to create the University earlier, in 1589, but without success.

Don't have enough of talented people?

Some of those who created Lwów:
Zygmunt Gorgolewski, Sebastian Czepek, Antoni Popiel, Jan Sadłowski, Piotr Krasowski, Franciszek Olędzki, Piotr Polejowski, Julian Zacharewicz, Zbigniew Brochwicz Lewiński, Wincenty Rawski, Jadwiga Horodyńka, Julian Markowski, Tomasz Dykas, Stanisław Stroiński, Zygmunt Kurczyński, Jan Osiński, Roman Ducheński... and more

It will never be a city of some single heritage, since neither can be attributed even with 30% of pure input. And my post #181 (no matter how limited it is) proves it

I don't think so. My post would be extremely long if I wanted to name every building/monument, not to mention elements like paintings/stained glass/sculptures (for example in churches, and they have many authors) that are in Lviv now thanks to their Polish creators.

Lviv = Polish cultural heritage (not only, but mostly).

Many historical monuments are being renovated in L'viv and are in very good condition

And Poland (The Ministry of Culture and National Heritage of RP) is financing this, for example: zik.com.ua/pl/news/2009/02/16/169792.

Lviv was the center of Polishness, now it is the center of Ukrainian nationalism. It will always be a Polish city (in terms of cultural heritage), but I'm afraid there are small chances that the city will belong to Poland again.
porzeczka   
17 Jul 2009
History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

pathology

By writing something like that, in the context of the thread, you only showed your disrespect for the victims and their families.

There has been almost no attempt on the part of the Ukrainian diaspora to confront the issue of war criminality in a less defensive and more soul-searching manner. Instead, there persists a deafening silence about, as well as reluctance to confront, even well-documented war crimes, such as the mass murder of Poles in Volhynia by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)[7] and the cooperation of the Ukrainian auxiliary police in the execution of the Jews.[8]

source: John-Paul Himka, War Criminality: A Blank Spot in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora.

UPA monuments in Ukraine.

But please don't construct them in Poland, because the last one (illegal) was destroyed, which caused an outrage among Ukrainian authorities and they started crying about how much this 'act of vandalism' is harmful for Polish-Ukrainian relations.
porzeczka   
15 Jul 2009
History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

So tell me the difference between 'concentration camp' and 'internment camp'?
And does Norman Davies call it 'internment camp' or 'concentration camp'?
porzeczka   
15 Jul 2009
History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

Stop being whining pussies where English somehow betrayed you and Ukrainians killed you. I see many by now realized what kind of cry-babies you are.

Nathan, I wish you stop history falsification and denying of ethnic cleansing conducted by UPA in Volhynia/Eastern Galicia.
I understand that you agree with everything else I wrote in my comment and accept OUN/UPA's responsibility for the genocide of Poles.
Next time you write anything about 'polonization', 'colonization', Bereza Kartuska, Polish-Ukrainian war or 'oppression' of Ukrainians, I will call you: a 'whining *****' and 'cry- baby'. You can be sure of that.
porzeczka   
14 Jul 2009
History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

Simultaneously steps were undertaken to eliminate 'foreign elements' in Ukraine. OUN-B posters and leaflets incited the Ukrainian population to murder Poles and 'Juedo-Muscovites'. Since the majority of Jews in German-occupied Ukraine had already perished at the hands of Nazis, the OUN-B concentrated its assault on Poles. In Februrary 1943, taking into account the possibility of Germany's defeat, the third conference of the OUN-B finalized its plans.

In the late winter and early spring of 1943 the assault on Polish settlements began. Backed by a peasant self-defence units, the OUNB detachments attacked Polish villages at night or in the early morning, butchering all inhabitants regardless of the sex or age. Bullets were often spared in favour of axes, knives and pitchforks. After the killings were completed, Polish house were looted and set on fire.

Source: Matthew J. Gibney, Randall Hansen, Immigration and asylum.

rsc.ox.ac.uk/index.html?gibney

Just as the Nazi instigators of the genocide of the Jews and Roma, the Banderites of 1943 were responsible for launching a murderous assault on innocent men, women, and children and for forcing civilian Ukrainians to participation.

Source: Karel C. Berkhoff, Harvest of Despair: Life and death in Ukraine under Nazi rule, Harvard University Press.
[i]hup.harvard.edu/catalog/BERHAR.html?show=reviews

UKRAINE REPORT 2003, No. 66: ARTICLE NUMBER TWELVE. IPN REPORTS ON INVESTIGATION INTO VOLHYNIA MASSACRES
By Jan Maksymiuk, "RFE/RL Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine Report"
Volume 5, Number 26, Prague, Czech Republic, July 8, 2003
artukraine.com/events/ukr_rep65.htm

(at the bottom of the page)

So you agree that Poland ran a concentration camp in the interbellum years.

You can call it internment camp.

victimization of Ukrainian side.

By this I meant making victims out of Ukrainians, depiction of Ukrainians as the victims of Poles, injured party, narrative of victimization used by Ukrainian historians.
porzeczka   
14 Jul 2009
History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

All this is done by some pseudo historians

Timothy Snyder is such historian for you? A Yale professor? ;)

trying to undermine Ukrainian-Polish relations.

Polish-Ukrainian 'friendship' can not be built on lies and victimization of Ukrainian side. The truth can not be forgotten nor sacrificed in the name of 'good relations'. We owe it to thousands of innocent people murdered by UPA in Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine.

Up until the collapse of Communism, it was not possible to do any research or publish any mention of the massacres of the Polish population in Volhynia and in Eastern Galicia perpetrated in 1943-1944 by the Ukrainians - so-called Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army. This subject was blocked by Communist censorship for two reasons:
1) after 1945 Ukrainians were treated as a friendly Soviet nation, a member of the USSR, and any mentions about Polish-Ukrainian conflicts should be avoided; they would be treated as Anti-Soviet
2) Volhynia and Eastern Galicia were territories lost by Poland in 1945, they were incorporated by the Soviet Union; any mentions about lost territories were not permitted by Polish Communist censorship; again they would be treated as anti-Soviet revisionism

Source: P. Machcewicz, The Institute of National Remembrance and Coming to Terms with a Difficult Past: World War II and the Communist Dictatorship, Collegium Civitas, Warsaw.

Cool, I have some friends who graduated from this university.

I got another curiosity for you - Dmytro Klyachkivsky, 'The butcher of Vohlynia', entered the Law faculty of the Jan Kazimierz University in Lwów. Cool?
porzeczka   
13 Jul 2009
History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

Polish peasants were killed in Wolyn by angry mobs who lived through a lot and just couldn't keep it anymore. Was it wrong? Of, course, but there was no UPA army in it, no matter how hard you will try to smear our soldiers.

Are you serious? It is well acknowledged by both foreign and Polish historians that OUN/UPA organized genocide/ethnic cleansing of Poles in Vohlynia and Eastern Galicia. IPN is conducting investigation about it, under Article 118 of Poland's Criminal Code, which pertains to genocide.

There is no doubt which organization bears the responsibility for massacres. I don't understand how can you blame angry mobs for them. Some time ago you spoke differently.

The following paragraph summarizes OUN/UPA attacks well:

The OUN-B planned and organized attacks thoroughly. Through rapid concentration and swift convergence upon a targeted locations, the nationalists almost always had the element of surprise and superiority in numbers. After a village was overrun, mass murder, pillage and burning houses followed in quick succession. All vestiges of Polish existence were eradicated and by torturing its victims and mutilating bodies, the OUN-B/UPA made deliberate efforts to generate mass flight of the Poles.

source: books.google.pl/books?id=2c6ifbjx2wMC&pg=PA31&dq=immigration+to+asylum&as_brr=3

Roman Shukhevych completed studies at Lviv Politechnic Institute.
porzeczka   
13 Jul 2009
History / UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED [57]

Kazimierz Damian Bąbiński ('Luboń'), commander of the Union for Armed Struggle-Home Army Wołyń, in his April 22, 1943, order to AK partisan units stated:

I forbid the use of the methods utilized by the Ukrainian butchers. We will not burn Ukrainian homesteads nor kill Ukrainian women and children in retaliation. The self-defence network must protect itself from the aggressors or attack the agressors but leave the peaceful population and their possessions alone.

source: ZWZ-AK Wołyń field report no 123/III, April 22 1943. UW library, sygn. 3312: books.google.pl/books?id=Mfy2IZcbmHgC&printsec=frontcover

All AK doings were merely response to OUN/UPA action of ethnic cleansing - genocide directed against defenceless civilian population. The goal of AK soldiers was to protect peaceful civilians, women and children. The goal of OUN/UPA was entirely different: to murder - purge Wohlynian/ Eastern Galician territory of rival ethnic group. Collective death sentence was imposed on all Poles, and UPA 'soldiers' were given orders to execute it. It was not a sudden outburst of random violence, but deliberate, systematic destruction of Polish ethnic group; premeditated, well planned, coordinated action, which goal was to obtain ethically clean territory - purely strategical decision.
porzeczka   
1 Jul 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

A description which precisely matches the official justification for the establishing of the Warsaw ghetto. That was set up because, officially, Jews threatened the safety of the rest of the population of Warsaw. Am I to assume that you consider the establishing of the Warsaw ghetto to have been perfectly acceptable?

And how did the Jews threaten the safety? Please, write more about it. You know exactly that it was Nazi-German anti-Jewish propaganda. The real reason for establishing the ghetto in Warsaw was entirely different.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_ghetto

Kristallnacht was triggered by the assassination of German diplomat Ernst vom Rath by Herschel Grynszpan, a German-born Jew. Should I conclude that you consider Kristallnacht to have been perfectly acceptable?

Men put in the Bereza Kartuska detention camp weren't random civilians. The purpose behind establishment of such facility/institution was clear - it's meant to be a prison for terrorists and those involved in political murders and assaults, radicals; political opponents. Although, common and financial criminals were incarcerated there too. Many of those people (involved in the campaign of arson, murders, assaults, robberies, financial malversations), would end up in ordinary prisons anyway.

Anybody who insists that it was dedicated against any particular ethnicity (like Jewish Ghetto or Kristallnacht) is wrong; it was not - Poles, Jews, Ukrainians, Bielorusians, even some Germans were imprisoned there. Please find me a source postulating that Ukrainians constituted majority of incarcerated (during the whole operation time). Establishment of Bereza Kartuska prison was inspired by assassination of Pieracki by OUN - not by 'Ukrainians'. It's obvious that such detention camp, because of use of the term 'political prisoners', wouldn't be acceptable nowadays. Prison conditions were extremely harsh and I don't approve them. I don't like idea of imprisoning 'political opponents' for what they preach either, though I approve imprisoning terrorists e.g. The case of Bereza Kartuska prison isn't one-dimensional for me.
porzeczka   
1 Jul 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Open yourself to the world, read historians from other countries.

Especially open yourself to Viktor Idzio. Ukrainian historians are always trustworthy and non- biased completely.

Ukrainian historian, Viktor Idzio, states that according to official statistics, 176 men - by unofficial Polish statistics, 324 Ukrainians[clarification needed] - were murdered or tortured to death during questioning, or died from disease, while escaping, or disappeared without trace. Most were OUN members.[5][dubious - discuss]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_Detention_Camp

Yes, please, be so kind and expand on that, historian jola. Just give an example for validity of incarcerating 4,500 Ukrainians in this Polish concentration camp in 1938, not mentioning those who already died tortured before.

It's all about Ukrainians...

The Bereza Kartuska prison or detention camp was a Polish prison for mostly political prisoners that was operated in 1934-39 at Bereza Kartuska in the former Polesie Voivodeship (today in Belarus, near the city of Brest). It was intended to accommodate persons "whose activities or conduct give reason to believe that they threaten the public security, peace or order."
On 15 June 1934 Pieracki was assassinated by a Ukrainian nationalist. His death gave impetus to the creation of the Detention Camp Bereza Kartuska with the first detainees being 6 members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists arrested on July 6-7, 1934 in connection with themurderof such prominent politician. Eventually, a total of 176 members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) were detained at the camp.Not a single death was reported among them in spite of draconian living conditions.[1]

(Foreign historians - here you go)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_Detention_Camp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronis%C5%82aw_Pieracki

Be a bit more polite towards people you don't know.

I wish you were, Nathan.

Look at your writings and tell me they are coming from a person who read anything besides biased Polish school forage you keep on munching all the time.

Change Polish to Ukrainian - and the whole sentence will apply to you.

Quotes from other websites should ideally contain no more than 100 words and be marked at "quote" using the "quote" function.
porzeczka   
22 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

Why do you have to put your innocent ignorance in every matter, on every subject?

Do you have to insult me? Do you think your arguments are more convincing because of that?
Whatever you say, Ukraine wasn't recognized as an independent/separate country. Look at the maps of Europe before and after WW2 (1939, 1945). Ukrainians served in the ranks of Soviet Army and Soviets, as Harry wrote, were invited to the Victory Parade. They surely fought for their homeland and I undestand that, but do you really expect separate invitation to be posted to Ukrainian SSR? You can't compare European Union to Soviet Union, please...

I am not surprised what your historical books look like when even in the kindergarten they put racistic BS degrading respect towards other nations.

Your generalization is very unfair, Nathan. I doubt you've ever read any Polish historical book.

Have some decency and respect to those who paid by their life for giving me and you an opportunity to be here and stop whining.

Stop whining about whining! And don't use such words as "decency" and "respect".
I'm really fed up with you :(
porzeczka   
22 Jun 2009
History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

We never asked for invitation and will never whine about not being there like you.

Maybe because there was no such country as Ukraine before and after WW2, only Ukrainian SSR - a republic of the Soviet Union. Ukrainians fighting on eastern front (on allied side) were Soviet Army soldiers (4.5-7 million ethnic Ukrainians). Unlike them, Polish soldiers fought also on western front with French and British armies. I don't know if Soviets were invited to the Victory Parade in London.

The campaign in Poland had not finished yet when Polish troops abroad started to form. The government of Poland in exile that emerged in Paris adopted as its main goal the fight at the side of the Allies and creating a Polish army in France. This was the beginning of the Polskie Siły Zbrojne (PSZ - Polish Armed Forces) in the West which fought until May 1945 in three theatres of war: Western Europe (1940 and 1944-1945), North Europe (1940) and Mediterranean (North Africa in 1940-1942, Italy 1944-1945).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II

ww2.pl/Polish,Armed,Forces,in,the,West,23.html
ddayhell.pl/index_pl.php?go=12
porzeczka   
18 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

It is not true - read the following

60 000 is the number of victims in Volhynia, I wrote about all Polish victims of UPA (120 000 - 150 000). It's from IPN site too.

IPN has big problem with credibility nowadays. If you live in Poland, you should know sth about it. It has released or sponsored too many controversial publications recently.

I've heard only about one. IPN released one controversial publication about Wałęsa (by Gontarczyk). Does that mean the number of UPA victims is not correct? As for Zyzak's book - it was not published or sponsored by IPN.

If you consider to condemn and ban the organizations just on the basis of some retarded animals wrongdoings, then we have to ban them both so you can't see even those who never killed any innocent and put their head for their country.

Look, there should be no doubt that genocidal policy was pursued and implemented by the OUN/UPA. It's not about some random killings or few instances but about consistent, well organized actions of exterminating Polish civilians. The OUN equated Ukrainian independence with ethnic homogeneity. The way the killings were commited makes UPA hardly comparable to any other organization.

It's said that some A.K soldiers from Wohlynia were destroying Ukrainian villages in retaliation. The estimated number of killed vary from 2 000 to 20 000. I haven't heard about any investigation concerning it. But these killings don't define A.K. Armia Krajowa never pursued genocidal policy.

Do you know that people living in Jedwabne where the biggest massacre took place refuse to admit it or express regret? So, if Poles can`t accept their dark past, why do you expect it from Ukrainians???

You're talking about ordinary people and their reactions. I'm talking about responsibility of authorities to ensure that genociders and their deeds are officially condemned. Kuchma made mistake, Juschenko's attitude makes situation only worse. New monuments of UPA leaders, war criminals responsible for mass-murders of Poles: Stefan Bandera's, Roman Szuchewicz's, „Wohlyn butcher's” - Dmytro Klaczkiwśkij's are popping up in western Ukraine. Roman Szuchewicz was awarded the highest honour - the title „hero of Ukraine”. This is what Szuchewicz wrote in one of his orders:

„Śmierć jednego Lacha to metr wolnej Ukrainy, albo będzie Ukraina albo lechicka krew po kolana, Polaków w pień wyciąć.
W związku z sukcesami wojsk sowieckich konieczne jest przyspieszenie likwidacji Polaków, muszą zostać całkowicie zgładzeni, ich wioski spalone (...) ludność polską należy zniszczyć.”

Why do you see Ukrainian monuments and forget about Polish? Polish controversial figures, including murderers of innocent people, also have their monuments in Poland and Poles don`t care when foreigners criticize. So, there is a draw.

A monument of a person responsible for genocide of thousands of innocent civilians. Where is such monument in Poland?

Anti-Polish sentiments might again rise in Ukraine.

Judging by their national 'heroes'... I would not be surprised if anti-polish sentiment was prevalent there.

I believe Polish politics in Ukraine was incredibly stupid and blind. And it finally brought about the massacre.

If you can justify ethic cleansing/genocide conducted by OUN/UPA, then you can do the same with Polish politics in Ukraine. Just put it in the right context.

It just couldn`t end another way. I am so sorry...

It could - you had Andrii Melnyk, OUN-M or even Taras Bulba Boroviec...

Nope! We shall never leave Ukraine! In good and bad times, Poland and Ukraine must keep together!!!

We are already partners and friends.

That's crazy. With such friends, who needs enemies?
porzeczka   
13 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

The reconciliation between Poland and Ukraine is a joke. Ukrainian government has never issued any apology for UPA crimes and ethnic cleansing. One of UPA leaders (Roman Szuchewicz) responsible for massacres of Poles recently got a monument in the centre of Lvov. Many Stefan Bandera's monuments are in Ukraine already. There will also be 'the street of UPA' in Lvov.

The picture you posted doesn`t present the Polish victims of UPA

Maybe you would prefer photos from Poland's IPN site:

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/186/1465/Wolyn.html

These are only some examples of UPA atrocities, look carefully, so you can see how people were tortured and what you approve.

/topic/612921/Ukraine/30063/Lithuanian-and-Polish-rule

Do you really believe that's enough justification for what UPA did? So these innocent people just deserved it? You seem to forget that it was also deliberate, planned ethnic cleansing.

Tens of thousands isn`t 500.000, is it???? So, stop lying about history, Solo. The numbers are much lower and range from 30 to 70 thousand

According to historians, OUN-UPA murdered 120 000 - 150 000 Poles.

Nobody really wants compensations, border change or Lwów. Just the truth. If Ukrainians cannot bear it, Poland should leave this useless and false 'partnership'.

I want my country to be in Europe where knowledge, culture and human being is appreciated and respected

And where is your respect for innocent victims of your 'heroes'?
porzeczka   
4 May 2009
History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]

Two hypotheses were discarded only on the notion that it happened within short period of time.

I don't think your conclusion is correct.

Personally I wouldn't consider it valid and jump to the conclusion that the organization was totally responsable for the murders that occurred. As Zajac said the leaders of the organization didn't know of what was going on at that region at that time.

The whole OUN isn't reponsible, only OUN-B/OUN-UPA is.

Zajac says: The whole action, because of its scope, size, precision of the strikes, element of surprising the Poles, had to be planned and prepared in advance. In the process of investigation, version about random character of killings was eliminated. On the basis of the evidence, one hypothesis is considered to be the most likely - that the decision to take action against Polish population was made alone by OUN-B leadership in Volhynia without the consent of Central Prowid OUN. This decision was made personally by OUN-B leader in Volhynia - Dmytro Kljaczkiwśkij, alias "Kłym Sawur” (posiblly with his close associates) who was in the command of whole UPA and directly of UPA Volhynia.

Many massacres, and I don't deny them, were committed by Ukrainian peasants who just took forks, scythes etc. and went on killing people. It wasn't organized as many want it to present. You have to take into consideration that Polish government did in the Polonization that started in 1930s were thousands of Ukrainian schools, churches were closed...

I see what pushed them to such actions which remind me of 17th century were again religion

Nathan, I don't think you understand. People were horibbly tortured before their deaths - women, men, children, whole families. Do I have to go into details? 'Forks , scythes'? '17th century rebelion'? UPA had more than 300 ways of torturing people. It's not only about killings but how they were done! There will never be an excuse for the monstrous cruelty of UPA and its peasants. The motives behind these atrocities can be disputed, but the main goal of OUN-B is clear - to obtain lands ethnically clean before any possible postwar peace talks could be conducted.

According to Polish historians 60,000 Poles were murdered

Only in Vohlynia. Volyn is the best known case. But Poles were murdered in other places too. According to historians, the number of Poles slaughtered by OUN-UPA range from 120 000 to 150 000.

Zajac said that retaliation is less murderous because it was done in consequence of murders committed by Ukrainians

He only stated the fact – the reprisal actions occured, these actions were the consequence of UPA crimes.

I think we should end this discussion here.
porzeczka   
1 May 2009
History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]

That you present me the names of the people murdered and Wikipedia unsupported materials

Wikipedia - yes, unsupported - no, that's why I wrote - "check references".
The other link I posted, was to show that UPA murdered Poles not only in Volyn.
I said that you are "bezczelny", because it's like laughing in someone's face, when you say: "documents of Volyn' and Katyn' are still lying in Moskow's archives". You know exactly that these documents will never be revealed and they have been probably already destroyed.

According to prosecutor Piotr Zając, Polish Institute of National Remembrance in 2003 considered three different versions of the events in its investigation. In all versions, Ukrainians were responsible, not NKVD. This hasn't changed.

You know Polish, so please read this, there are enough hard proofs to tell who is responsible for massacres of Poles in Volyn: miasta.gazeta.pl/lublin/1,35640,1568390.html

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/186/1465/Wolyn.html - actuall IPN site says explicitly who did it. We already know the truth.
porzeczka   
1 May 2009
History / Taras Bulba - the movie [115]

If there are documents that support UPA killings of innocent Poles, I bring my apology to all Polish people and feel deeply sorry that it happened. But as I know KGB documents of Volyn' and Katyn' are still lying in Moskow's archives and they will definately shed a light on what happened, when and how many people and who murdered.

Nie wierzę. Jesteś tak bezczelny Ukraińcu. I sincerely hope that you will apologise.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volyn_massacre - READ IT!!! Check references!

And not only in Volyn!
stankiewicze.com/ludobojstwo/lwowskie_a.html
porzeczka   
29 Apr 2009
Love / do polish girls consider a english man a good catch ? [126]

do polish girls consider a english man a good catch ?

No.

prestige, rather than money , I would say.

Lol, keep dreaming.

Westerners are usually better looking, I`m afraid.

Eastern Euro men are better looking IMO.

They can have the ones we dont want

No, thank you, we don't need them. We still have a big population of decent men in Poland, and we can always import some Czechs or Hungarians ;).
porzeczka   
14 Jan 2009
News / What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others? [1108]

Sorry, if it's offtop but maybe this will interest you - the British Government has officially expressed regret for NOT INVITING Polish Combatants for the famous V-Day parade in 1946.

polandinexile.com/vp3.htm