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UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446  
11 Jul 2009 /  #1
The pro-business govenremtn of Donald Tusk is clearly downplaying the war-time massacre of 100,000 or so Poles in a Ukrainian genocidal frenzy. Possibly 5 times as many Poles were brutally slaughtered as compared with 22,000 "mercifully" killed with a bullet to the head in the Katyń Forest Massacre and other sites. Ukrainians decapitated Poles, impaled their heads on wooden poles, burnt them alive, threw babies down wells and engaged in medieval torture much the way the Serbs behaved during the 1990s conlfict in former Yugoslavia.

But Poland and Ukraine are co-hosting football's Euro 2012 and have various mutual business arrangements so Tusk & Co. prefer not to rock the boat and sweep things under the rug. The families of Ukrainian genocide victims have not only lost in the massacre, but in many cases are being denied the staisfaction of knowing where and when they were murdered.
Borrka 37 | 594  
11 Jul 2009 /  #2
I suggest you make some elementary school math.
It's easy even for web brigades.
BTW. I know your activities from Gazeta Wyborcza forums.

According to 1931 Polish census Polish was mother language for over 5 millions people living in Poland eastwards the Curzon line.

Given 1.5 millions post war deportations to the commie Poland, max. 1 million Poles still living in Lithuania, Belorussia, Ukraine, Russia, small groups taken with Anders Army to Iran (plus people who escaped to GG 1939) and all UPA killings ... two millions are missing.

This number is fully in line with all investigations made by historians but don't ask for links, just use Google.

I'm not looking for any excuses for Ukrainian nationalism but the real number of innocent Poles, mostly kids and women murdered by Russian communists is about 20 times higher than all UPA victims.

Two millions Polish people killed, starved, frozen to death in Gulags, Siberia, Kazakhstan etc.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
11 Jul 2009 /  #3
Pol3, how dare you comment on a situation you clearly know nothing about!!? You are a media hound who doesn't look beneath the surface. I'll get to the thread in a minute but do not make out like the Serbs impaled or beheaded others. That was done to them by the Mujas. Yes, Mladic was guilty of genocide but that isn't prolonged torture. He had his men line up Muslims and systematically kill them. Short treatment! RIP to those Muslims btw!!!

I have a simple comment for you. You should have dealt with it then. Stop the moaning and muckraking, they are long dead and nothing can bring them back. Start waking up to your frickin insularity, stop crying wolf/poor me and quit the sob stories. This was a thread for almost 70 years ago.

Ukraine is your friend now so stop souring the milk and kicking up dust!
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446  
11 Jul 2009 /  #4
It is easy for fat, flabby decadent Old Europe to worry only about their latest flat renovation, new car and planned holiday on Ibiza and accuse Poles of living in the past, because they have had time to come to terms with their history. Poles have not due to 6 years of Nazi-Soviet occuaption and 45 years of quasi-subjugation by Moscow. The past tow decades has encountered roadblocks iof various kinds (post-commies, Putin, Ukrainian nationalists, etc.). To people who have lost their loved ones in various massacres -- Katyń, Wołń, Naliboki or whatever -- these amtters have yet to be cleared up. A Pole accused of living in the past once replied by saying: History has long been our only true homeland. BTW my grandfather's family was burnt alive in their cottage in the Wołyń massacre -- anyone trying to flee the blazing building got bludgeoned or stabbed to death by blood-thirsty Rezuny.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Jul 2009 /  #5
I wonder, Seanus, if your advice goes to Jews as well? We get fed Holocaust daily and twice on Sunday to the point that most people start believing only Jews died during WWII.

The problem with some Ukranians is that they glorify UPA murderers, try to whitewash the genocide perpetrated on Polish civilians and then erect monuments to those beasts.

To me, it is equivalent to praising Einsatzgruppen for "fighting bolshevism."
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
11 Jul 2009 /  #6
My advice goes to Jews too, yes, but scale is scale ;)
1jola 14 | 1,879  
11 Jul 2009 /  #7
It is forbidden by law to even discuss the scale ;)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,307  
11 Jul 2009 /  #8
fat, flabby decadent Old Europe

Hey!
Sophie - | 10  
11 Jul 2009 /  #9
With respect to Polish deaths in the Ukraine in WW2: it is very relevant today, as are all genocides and murders by whichever party.

A few years ago I had the task of revealing to my mother, a survivor of the Siberian gulag at Semiplatynsk, that information relating to the disappearance of her father in 1939/40 had come to light by the partial release of documents by the Russian authorities. It is clear that he was part of the "Ukrainian List" (sic) and was murdered on Stalin's explicit orders at Kiev prison by the NKVD.

Although this release of information provided some kind of symmetry, the effects of such a momentous disclosure are not to be underestimated: it provoked a period of deep depression in my mother and a partial stroke.

As for the general effects over long periods of time of such murders, whether known or suspected in the cases of those who have disappeared, it is very clear to me that these percolate through the generations in the form of deep psychological stigmata which are never truly resolved.

It is essential that everything becomes known: this is the only justice which remains to victims and is the starting point of civilised behaviour by nations and individuals.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441  
12 Jul 2009 /  #10
fat, flabby decadent Old Europe
Hey!

I agree. I found comments like that most annoying.
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
12 Jul 2009 /  #11
Saw some gruesome pictures, as well as heard some eye witness testimony about the crimes these Ukrainian barbarians commited on Poles today on the news.

Pregnant women's stomachs ripped open, cats and other rubbish thrown in, ears and noses torn off, force fed to friends/family, etc... Disgusting, absolutely disgusting.

And to think that most of these crimes were commited not by actual soldiers, but by these peoples neighbours. Family men who had lived by these people all their lives in peace, and who came home after a whole day of murdering, with no sense of guilt. Now they build monuments for these animals...

If any of these sick people are still alive, I'd gladly take a hand in exterminating the whole lot of them.
Sophie - | 10  
12 Jul 2009 /  #12
There's no future in that. The barbarities perpetrated by the Ukrainians on the Poles were a currency handed on to me by my parents' generation.

I reject it. It is a false currency for shysters with ulterior motives.
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
12 Jul 2009 /  #13
There's no future in that

Of course not, you're a woman.

You're excused. In a different age, time, place.. perhaps sweet retribution for the Polish family members of those murdered by Ukrainian animals.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
12 Jul 2009 /  #14
And to think that most of these crimes were commited not by actual soldiers, but by these peoples neighbours. Family men who had lived by these people all their lives in peace, and who came home after a whole day of murdering, with no sense of guilt. Now they build monuments for these animals...

This has happend time and time again all around the world....Remember how Germans treated German Jews? Or how Slovakians treated Slovakian Jews? Remember most recently the Balkans and how neighbours behaved...Im not sure what makes people behave like this but its a reacurring factor when war occur, people forget that they once shared a coffee with these people, they just see them as the enemy and turn in to animals.
Sophie - | 10  
12 Jul 2009 /  #15
As an atheist, I sometimes wonder about the essence of catholicism and the burden of guilt. Does revenge come from this?

We are all animals, but we are converted to humans, not the other way round.
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
12 Jul 2009 /  #16
Does revenge come from this

I'm not catholic woman, and I'd gladly bury these murderers. No guilt, no fear of going to hell. They had their choice before they committed their disgusting crimes. Can't say the same for the young children and women that were killed.

Times are changed however, and I'd be doing life without parole I'm afraid ;)

but we are converted to humans

Converted? Bad choice of word.
Sophie - | 10  
12 Jul 2009 /  #17
I'm following both Darwin and Catholic doctrine on that one! Not a bad achievement though I say so myself... have I left you somewhere behind love?
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
12 Jul 2009 /  #18
In a different age, time, place.. perhaps sweet retribution for the Polish family members of those murdered by Ukrainian animals

I wouldn't like Ukrainians to start murdering Polish animals as a sweet retribution for their atrocities. Grow up, son. Don't start your childish marasm again like your ancestors did. Let's wipe up the milk from our lips and move ahead.

If any of these sick people are still alive, I'd gladly take a hand in exterminating the whole lot of them.

You can start with Armija Krajowa veterans and Polish stszelcy groups. But I would recommend you to stop, take a deep breath and start working on making sure that there is no hostility among the two nations. I made peace with history and our contradictions and dark sides of our relations in the past should evaporate in front of multiple positive things we are able to achieve working together.
Borrka 37 | 594  
12 Jul 2009 /  #19
But I would recommend you to stop, take a deep breath and start working on making sure that there is no hostility among the two nations.

Touching, Nathan!
I'm already crying.

First you spend weeks or months insulting Poland and Polish forum members and now this dramatic cry for mutual understanding.
What a great contribution to Polish-Ukrainian peaceful coexistence lol !
Unfortunately (for me) it's an issue I do care about.

You are not in position to control your reactions when attacked, provoked, confronted with facts you don't like.
You are like an Internet troll: verbal paybacks are sweet !
Insult for insult !
Nonsense for nonsense.
No, they are just childish.

Sometimes I think this kind of behavior was a reason for our troubles in the past.
On the both sides.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
12 Jul 2009 /  #20
Ah, what the heck, let's sing it together.


lesser 4 | 1,311  
12 Jul 2009 /  #21
The pro-business govenremtn of Donald Tusk is clearly downplaying the war-time massacre of 100,000 or so Poles in a Ukrainian genocidal frenzy.

This government is only pro-big business with already established position in the market. Anyone willing to compete with them need to face with tones of socialist regulations aimed to kill initiative already at the beginning.

While I don't see their attitude towards Ukraine especially controversial. They generally reduced number of historic issues which are constantly raise by various politicians in Poland and this is good. If you search for hypocrites who used to raise historical issues in political demagogy, it is PiS. Those people just love to talk about German and Russian faults and always downplayed Ukrainian issue. This is simply their political line.

I agree. I found comments like that most annoying.

Truth is always so annoying. Soon Poland fully join them as well.
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
12 Jul 2009 /  #22
Armija Krajowa veterans and Polish stszelcy groups

Don't insult real war veterans, who actually fought Nazi and Soviet soldiers alike, (even if it did mean killing a few traitor civilians here and there). Unlike Ukrainian peasants who allied themselves with Nazis and butchered unarmed Polish women and children. You can really be proud of that, my friend.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
12 Jul 2009 /  #23
Don't insult real war veterans, who actually fought Nazi and Soviet soldiers alike

It is good you respect your veterans. I respect my veterans as well. UPA soldiers fought against German, Russian and Polish armies, because these forces occupied UKRAINIAN TERRITORY - not POLISH or RUSSIAN or GERMAN, but UKRAINIAN TERRITORY. There were peasants, no doubt, who went on a rampage after having lived through Polonization, Pacification, Bereza Kartuska concentration camp, burnt churches, closed school, killed and raped women and kids. Are you surprised? You wonder about the proportions of 60,000 Polish people (don't feed me with Davies' 200-500 thousands exact numbers). I'll tell you now - if Polish killed my only child - I am not sure how many of theirs I would kill. I might not stop until I am dead. Are you surprised? Is it something that goes out of the range for people who suffer under injustice, imprisonment, native language and religion prohibition, devastating war and at the end to have one's kid killed by those centennial oppressors? I don't defend such behavior, but I understand it absolutely. And now when some of you keep on drooling about UPA and Ukrainians, look deep into your past, put yourself at the place of these people and frankly say what you or better your ancestors do in their place.

I talked to one Pole who was saying to me that RP was a fore-runner of EU and how democratic Poles were along their history. I think some of you need to be hit hard into the dumb head so dormant brain cells could at last wake up.

Austrians who are neither our neighbors, nor Slavs had thousand times more decency and respect towards minorities of the Austrian empire than Poland would even in the boldest dreams ever be able to have.
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195  
12 Jul 2009 /  #24
Really. Since when, again, did your oft-cited Polonisation procedure include the killing of people's 'only children'? Or first-born son, or whatever else you'd think would justify UPA atrocities if only it had actually ever happened? And don't tell me they went to Bereza Kartuska, either. Killed and raped women and kids, what?

Though, I suppose the last part does need mentioning given that UPA was famous for it. Those people were such primitive savages, the Polish and Soviet armies actually worked together to wipe them out. Which isn't something that happens every day.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
12 Jul 2009 /  #25
And don't tell me they went to Bereza Kartuska, either. Killed and raped women and kids, what?

What should I tell you a fairy-tale before you fall asleep? What? Keep on reading Polish war accounts and dream of saintly holy Polish warriors. Polish raped women and killed children, is it something new to you?

the Polish and Soviet armies actually worked together to wipe them out.

Of course, you worked together with Soviets. They paid you off, right?

I just gave you a simple example what sometimes happens when injustly dies one person, be it a kid, a woman or a man. I wasn't talking about UPA as they didn't kill civilians. I was talking about peasants who lived through hell.
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
12 Jul 2009 /  #26
because these forces

Right you are. It takes real men to butcher pregnant women, children and babies that are not fighting back. I'd like to see how your cowardly UPA would act in the face of an actual army.

It didn't help you much in the long run though, did it? Soviets destroyed your UPA for stupidly siding with the Nazis (but who would have thought at the time that Hitler had no intentions of respecting his alliance with a few primitive units of Slavic (Ukrainian) soldiers! It would have taken a true genious to foresee that.

went on a rampage after having lived through Polonization, Pacification, Bereza Kartuska concentration camp, burnt churches, closed school, killed and raped women and kids.

Trouble is, UPA was behind many of these blood baths, not just uneducated peasants. And it wasn't just Wolyn. In 20 or so villages and towns, the same methodical killings took place. You must have learnt this precision from the Nazis.

Are you trying to say that Polonization involved butchering women and children of Ukrainian descent, cutting off their limbs and burying them alive? Please, you faced even worse occupation by the Russians over the years, yet you did not commit similar crimes against them. Probably because Russians actually had army units stationed nearby, and the UPA was too cowardly to murder Russian children and women as long as they were there.

You wonder about the proportions of 60,000 Polish people (don't feed me with Davies' 200-500 thousands exact numbers)

I didn't, but now that you mention it, 60,000 is probably minimum number.

I am not sure how many of theirs I would kill. I might not stop until I am dead.

Good for you. Spoken like your UPA brothers in arms. What would be your weapon of choice? A sickle to hack the babies? Or would you start on the women first?

put yourself at the place of these people and frankly say what you or better your ancestors do in their place.

I could put myself in the place of anyone in history, and wonder about what I would do. Facts are, that my grandfather, great uncle, etc, fought like true soldiers, against armed combattants.

hit hard into the dumb head so dormant brain cells could at last wake up.

Same could be therefore said about your idiotic leader, who only makes new monuments to these barbarians, instead of shedding light on what really took place.
Borrka 37 | 594  
13 Jul 2009 /  #27
I wasn't talking about UPA as they didn't kill civilians. I was talking about peasants who lived through hell.

Now you are presenting Volhynia slaughter as some spontaneous outburst of frustration among Ukrainian peasants ?
Nice try but not quite true.

No doubts about their frustration - II Rzeczpospolita wasn't milk and honey land for Ukrainians - but the decision was prepared and taken by elite of OUN/UPA.

They decided to start ethnic cleansing in Western Ukraine and mass killings in Volhynia.
And they weren't for sure poor peasants but some well educated politicians.
If you are looking for analogies with Polish Interbellum it's like Pilsudski would have decided to kill all Ukrainians in order to get rid of rebels, terrorists, troublemakers.

Or maybe only those of them living in ethnic Poland , Cracow for example ?
BTW. Do you know Bandera asked Hitler to "give" him Cracow ?

I see some similarity to the first years of Pilsudski - OUN made kind of underground but the only legitime authorities and today they are national heroes for some Ukrainians (by far not for all of them - UNA/UNSO result was under 0.5% voters).

But there were some differences as well.
In spite of his tendencies for dictatorship he wasn't a mass murder.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,019  
13 Jul 2009 /  #28
To me, it is equivalent to praising Einsatzgruppen for "fighting bolshevism."

THere is allowed to lighten up candles for SS members in Norway or something, can't remember in detail. I think they were in Soviet union back then fighting bolschewism. I know outrage!
porzeczka - | 102  
13 Jul 2009 /  #29
Kazimierz Damian Bąbiński ('Luboń'), commander of the Union for Armed Struggle-Home Army Wołyń, in his April 22, 1943, order to AK partisan units stated:

I forbid the use of the methods utilized by the Ukrainian butchers. We will not burn Ukrainian homesteads nor kill Ukrainian women and children in retaliation. The self-defence network must protect itself from the aggressors or attack the agressors but leave the peaceful population and their possessions alone.

source: ZWZ-AK Wołyń field report no 123/III, April 22 1943. UW library, sygn. 3312: books.google.pl/books?id=Mfy2IZcbmHgC&printsec=frontcover

All AK doings were merely response to OUN/UPA action of ethnic cleansing - genocide directed against defenceless civilian population. The goal of AK soldiers was to protect peaceful civilians, women and children. The goal of OUN/UPA was entirely different: to murder - purge Wohlynian/ Eastern Galician territory of rival ethnic group. Collective death sentence was imposed on all Poles, and UPA 'soldiers' were given orders to execute it. It was not a sudden outburst of random violence, but deliberate, systematic destruction of Polish ethnic group; premeditated, well planned, coordinated action, which goal was to obtain ethically clean territory - purely strategical decision.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
13 Jul 2009 /  #30
And they weren't for sure poor peasants but some well educated politicians.

Where were they educated in Bereza Kartuska concentration camp?

BTW. Do you know Bandera asked Hitler to "give" him Cracow ?

I knew only of Paris and Vienna, but maybe, Krakow was there as well.

Kazimierz Damian Bąbiński ('Luboń'), commander of the Union for Armed Struggle-Home Army Wołyń, in his April 22, 1943, order to AK partisan units stated:
I forbid the use of the methods utilized by the Ukrainian butchers. We will not burn Ukrainian homesteads nor kill Ukrainian women and children in retaliation.

Fairy-tales for Polish kids. I can find you many things said, but completely other things done. Feed somebody else with this. UPA was the army who fought soldiers and not kids and women as you, Polish, always present. When we talk about Cossack victories you say that you were split, that Cossacks were brutal and ignorant robbers, that there were only three Poles with two horses with whooping-cough on the battlefield etc. With UPA you again try to do everything possible to undermine the army. Polish peasants were killed in Wolyn by angry mobs who lived through a lot and just couldn't keep it anymore. Was it wrong? Of, course, but there was no UPA army in it, no matter how hard you will try to smear our soldiers.

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