UKRAINIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES DOWNPLAYED

porzeczka - | 102

13 Jul 2009 / #31

Polish peasants were killed in Wolyn by angry mobs who lived through a lot and just couldn't keep it anymore. Was it wrong? Of, course, but there was no UPA army in it, no matter how hard you will try to smear our soldiers.

Are you serious? It is well acknowledged by both foreign and Polish historians that OUN/UPA organized genocide/ethnic cleansing of Poles in Vohlynia and Eastern Galicia. IPN is conducting investigation about it, under Article 118 of Poland's Criminal Code, which pertains to genocide.

There is no doubt which organization bears the responsibility for massacres. I don't understand how can you blame angry mobs for them. Some time ago you spoke differently.

The following paragraph summarizes OUN/UPA attacks well:

The OUN-B planned and organized attacks thoroughly. Through rapid concentration and swift convergence upon a targeted locations, the nationalists almost always had the element of surprise and superiority in numbers. After a village was overrun, mass murder, pillage and burning houses followed in quick succession. All vestiges of Polish existence were eradicated and by torturing its victims and mutilating bodies, the OUN-B/UPA made deliberate efforts to generate mass flight of the Poles.

source: books.google.pl/books?id=2c6ifbjx2wMC&pg=PA31&dq=immigration+to+asylum&as_brr=3

Roman Shukhevych completed studies at Lviv Politechnic Institute.

Nathan 18 | 1,349

14 Jul 2009 / #32

Roman Shukhevych completed studies at Lviv Politechnic Institute.

Cool, I have some friends who graduated from this university.
I still don't get how is education involved in here. It completely bewilders me. But again UPA took no part in killings of Poles. All this is done by some pseudo historians trying to undermine Ukrainian-Polish relations.

1jola 14 | 1,879

14 Jul 2009 / #33

It completely bewilders me. But again UPA took no part in killings of Poles. All this is done by some pseudo historians trying to undermine Ukrainian-Polish relations.

Is that what they teach you in Uki schools?

You don't have to go very far to get facts; they are well recorded. If you think that wiki is wrong on this, try changing it.

Stop whitewashing crimes of genocide on this board. You can go on some Ukranian chauvinist forum and spread lies there.

All this is done by some pseudo historians trying to undermine Ukrainian-Polish relations.

Go to the wiki link, read it and learn something, look at the sources, and get back here with a different attitude.

Read the reconciliation part and see how people like you are part of the problem not solution for Polish-Ukrainian relations.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

If you don't like the wiki entry on UPA, try to change it. Till then:

The Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Ukrainian: Українська Повстанська Армія (УПА), "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya," or "UPA"... played a substantial role in the killing and ethnic cleansing of much of Western Ukraine's Polish population.[4]

many eastern provinces responded with opening of memorials to their victims, the first one of which opened in Simferopol, Crimea in September 2007.[117]

That's in Ukraine, not Poland.

Monument to the Victims of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Simferopol

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

Now, look again what you wrote:

But again UPA took no part in killings of Poles.

A huge lie, isn't it.

porzeczka - | 102

14 Jul 2009 / #34

All this is done by some pseudo historians

Timothy Snyder is such historian for you? A Yale professor? ;)

trying to undermine Ukrainian-Polish relations.

Polish-Ukrainian 'friendship' can not be built on lies and victimization of Ukrainian side. The truth can not be forgotten nor sacrificed in the name of 'good relations'. We owe it to thousands of innocent people murdered by UPA in Eastern Poland/Western Ukraine.

Up until the collapse of Communism, it was not possible to do any research or publish any mention of the massacres of the Polish population in Volhynia and in Eastern Galicia perpetrated in 1943-1944 by the Ukrainians - so-called Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army. This subject was blocked by Communist censorship for two reasons:
1) after 1945 Ukrainians were treated as a friendly Soviet nation, a member of the USSR, and any mentions about Polish-Ukrainian conflicts should be avoided; they would be treated as Anti-Soviet
2) Volhynia and Eastern Galicia were territories lost by Poland in 1945, they were incorporated by the Soviet Union; any mentions about lost territories were not permitted by Polish Communist censorship; again they would be treated as anti-Soviet revisionism

Source: P. Machcewicz, The Institute of National Remembrance and Coming to Terms with a Difficult Past: World War II and the Communist Dictatorship, Collegium Civitas, Warsaw.

Cool, I have some friends who graduated from this university.

I got another curiosity for you - Dmytro Klyachkivsky, 'The butcher of Vohlynia', entered the Law faculty of the Jan Kazimierz University in Lwów. Cool?

Harry

14 Jul 2009 / #35

Timothy Snyder is such historian for you? A Yale professor?

So you agree that Poland ran a concentration camp in the interbellum years. Good to see that.

1jola 14 | 1,879

14 Jul 2009 / #36

You're a one trick pony, Harry. It's getting so old.

Yes, it housed future OUN/UPA butchers.

Nathan 18 | 1,349

14 Jul 2009 / #37

many eastern provinces responded with opening of memorials to their victims, the first one of which opened in Simferopol, Crimea in September 2007.[

You know why? Because eastern parts of Ukraine were occupied by Russians for centuries and millions people died from hunger exactly in these regions, the rest were deported to Siberia concentration camps and resettled by Russians. Now it is actually a huge probrem in my country as eastern part political forces aim to do everything to undermine the country. Russians as you know hate UPA as much as you do for the very reason of Ukrainian Povstanska Armija fight for my country's independance. They killed many Russians in the WWII who came as occupants and killed, raped and tortured as Polish units did. That's why we have this monument in the Crimea. Did you ask yourself why is it in Crimea (thousand km from Volyn') and not in Volyn'?

prewar Polish Wołyń Voivodeship and its environs, between late 1942 and early 1945, at the time of the German occupation

Can you reconcile these two parts from the source of knowledge called Wiki?

Go to the wiki link, read it and learn something, look at the sources, and get back here with a different attitude

I recommend you to do the same.

Yes, it housed future OUN/UPA butchers.

Come over and I'll house you. If you get out alive, we will have a beer and talk about friendship.

Filios1 8 | 1,336

14 Jul 2009 / #38

Nathan

Yes, keep shifting blame to the others Nathan, you pathetic liar.

At least be man enough to admit that this wasn't just some illiterate peasants running around with axes and shovels.

Nathan 18 | 1,349

14 Jul 2009 / #39

Listen, Filios. You present that UPA, which was an army, were fighting with axes, scythes and sickles. Anything wrong with the picture? Why do you always mention literacy? Illiterate peasants and stuff? I never said that peasants or illiterate forces were killing Poles. I have no idea who were the people - professors, doctors, miners..., but they were not UPA soldiers. I don't deny anything. There is a possibility that some UPA units took part in it, but to accuse the whole organization is simply wrong.

porzeczka - | 102

14 Jul 2009 / #40

Simultaneously steps were undertaken to eliminate 'foreign elements' in Ukraine. OUN-B posters and leaflets incited the Ukrainian population to murder Poles and 'Juedo-Muscovites'. Since the majority of Jews in German-occupied Ukraine had already perished at the hands of Nazis, the OUN-B concentrated its assault on Poles. In Februrary 1943, taking into account the possibility of Germany's defeat, the third conference of the OUN-B finalized its plans.

In the late winter and early spring of 1943 the assault on Polish settlements began. Backed by a peasant self-defence units, the OUNB detachments attacked Polish villages at night or in the early morning, butchering all inhabitants regardless of the sex or age. Bullets were often spared in favour of axes, knives and pitchforks. After the killings were completed, Polish house were looted and set on fire.

Source: Matthew J. Gibney, Randall Hansen, Immigration and asylum.

rsc.ox.ac.uk/index.html?gibney

Just as the Nazi instigators of the genocide of the Jews and Roma, the Banderites of 1943 were responsible for launching a murderous assault on innocent men, women, and children and for forcing civilian Ukrainians to participation.

Source: Karel C. Berkhoff, Harvest of Despair: Life and death in Ukraine under Nazi rule, Harvard University Press.
[i]hup.harvard.edu/catalog/BERHAR.html?show=reviews

UKRAINE REPORT 2003, No. 66: ARTICLE NUMBER TWELVE. IPN REPORTS ON INVESTIGATION INTO VOLHYNIA MASSACRES
By Jan Maksymiuk, "RFE/RL Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine Report"
Volume 5, Number 26, Prague, Czech Republic, July 8, 2003
artukraine.com/events/ukr_rep65.htm

(at the bottom of the page)

So you agree that Poland ran a concentration camp in the interbellum years.

You can call it internment camp.

victimization of Ukrainian side.

By this I meant making victims out of Ukrainians, depiction of Ukrainians as the victims of Poles, injured party, narrative of victimization used by Ukrainian historians.

Nathan 18 | 1,349

15 Jul 2009 / #41

Who is making victims out of Ukrainians? You cry incessantly about Volyn' and monuments to our UPA soldiers. Do I care if you cover the whole Poland with Armija Krajowa leaders' monuments or those of Dmowski or Pilsudski? I don't give the slightest crap. Stop being whining pussies where English somehow betrayed you and Ukrainians killed you. I see many by now realized what kind of cry-babies you are.

porzeczka - | 102

15 Jul 2009 / #42

Stop being whining pussies where English somehow betrayed you and Ukrainians killed you. I see many by now realized what kind of cry-babies you are.

Nathan, I wish you stop history falsification and denying of ethnic cleansing conducted by UPA in Volhynia/Eastern Galicia.
I understand that you agree with everything else I wrote in my comment and accept OUN/UPA's responsibility for the genocide of Poles.
Next time you write anything about 'polonization', 'colonization', Bereza Kartuska, Polish-Ukrainian war or 'oppression' of Ukrainians, I will call you: a 'whining *****' and 'cry- baby'. You can be sure of that.

Harry

15 Jul 2009 / #43

You can call it internment camp.

I could, but I wouldn't, because concentration camp is the correct term. Timothy Snyder agrees with me. So I assume you do to. Or do you only respect his views when he is talking about Poles being victims?

porzeczka - | 102

15 Jul 2009 / #44

So tell me the difference between 'concentration camp' and 'internment camp'?
And does Norman Davies call it 'internment camp' or 'concentration camp'?

Bialynia - | 2

15 Jul 2009 / #45

I'm new to the forum but thought I would comment. Coming from a family that fled Wołyń because of the actions of the UPA I am of the belief that we should remember it but not dwell on it. Sometimes the only interest Poles seem to have in Wołyń is the UPA atrocities, it doesn't make us very welcome tourists and doesn't help us rebuild Polish-Ukrainian relations in the area. I have traveled to Wołyń a few times and have simply not made WWII and UPA an issue on my agenda, which was surprisingly pleasant to the Ukrainians I met.

Sokrates 8 | 3,345

16 Jul 2009 / #46

Stop being whining pussies

Seriously Nathan stop calling a nation that kicked your ass in virtually every war pussies, if we're pussies and we kicked your ass all across the history books then who're you :)))

1jola 14 | 1,879

16 Jul 2009 / #47

I am of the belief that we should remember it but not dwell on it

Welcome,

I think most will agree with you and serious steps have been taken to put things behind us. Our disagreement here is with comparing UPA with AK and not aknowledging the role of UPA in mass murder.

Sometimes the only interest Poles seem to have in Wołyń is the UPA atrocities,

I don't see Nathan being very interested in telling us about Wołyń. I would be interested in some info if you have any. I love travelling and am not interested in spending my złoties in the Euro zone since the exchange rate is so poor at the moment. Ukraine sounds fine to me.

Sophie - | 10

16 Jul 2009 / #48

I'm too cynical to get involved in this warmongering stuff. It all ends in failure.

I had a good schoolfriend in the UK when I was growing up who was Ukrainian, my mother was not keen, I expect his mother was not keen, but they all grew out of it.

Peace! or take some bromide.

Just now worried about the NKVD tactics being used in Russia (aka Soviet Russia) to silence dissidents. Learned habits.......

Filios1 8 | 1,336

16 Jul 2009 / #49

Sophie

Did you take a lot of heavy drugs when you were younger?

1jola 14 | 1,879

16 Jul 2009 / #50

Just now worried about the NKVD tactics being used in Russia (aka Soviet Russia) to silence dissidents. Learned habits.......

Huh? Are you OK?

Sophie - | 10

16 Jul 2009 / #51

Filios1:
No I didn't, but think you shd! xx!

1jola 14 | 1,879

16 Jul 2009 / #52

xx!

Is that a foot stomp?

Sophie - | 10

16 Jul 2009 / #53

Yes. But don't get any ideas, thinking about it, that's not something to worry about either!

Filios1 8 | 1,336

16 Jul 2009 / #54

Sophie

Seriously, get help woman...

Nathan 18 | 1,349

16 Jul 2009 / #55

Seriously Nathan stop calling a nation that kicked your ass in virtually every war pussies, if we're pussies and we kicked your ass all across the history books then who're you :)))

Exactly, we were beaten on every possible field. So what is hurting your ass now, pouring crocodile tears over our army? You can't lose like a normal country, you have to write books glorifying your "courage" and telling that other country's army was murdering your women and kids. Grow up, pu*s*-cat. Jee, I hate woosies. Golota-style.

I love travelling and am not interested in spending my złoties in the Euro zone since the exchange rate is so poor at the moment. Ukraine sounds fine to me.

Buy some tourist guide and voila. How do you travel to other countries - by visiting their forums? Not a bad idea, though. Try it.

comparing UPA with AK

Who compares them? UPA were fighting for Ukraine's independance and the other - for Polish. We have our heroes and you have yours. The only problem I see is cry-babying and whining on your side. Both sides committed atrocities during the war. The only difference is your constant Polish way of dealing with things - slobber incessantly. I would be more than happy not to see monuments of AK soldiers in Poland, but I have news for you - I don't give a crap about them because it is not my land. My recommendation on your pathology - get some treatment if you have problems with UPA monuments in Ukraine.

1jola 14 | 1,879

17 Jul 2009 / #56

We have our heroes and you have yours.

Your UPA heroes were a bunch of death squads guilty of what amounts to genocide.

I think that is a well established fact. Take your propaganda elsewhere.

porzeczka - | 102

17 Jul 2009 / #57

pathology

By writing something like that, in the context of the thread, you only showed your disrespect for the victims and their families.

There has been almost no attempt on the part of the Ukrainian diaspora to confront the issue of war criminality in a less defensive and more soul-searching manner. Instead, there persists a deafening silence about, as well as reluctance to confront, even well-documented war crimes, such as the mass murder of Poles in Volhynia by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)[7] and the cooperation of the Ukrainian auxiliary police in the execution of the Jews.[8]

source: John-Paul Himka, War Criminality: A Blank Spot in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora.

UPA monuments in Ukraine.

But please don't construct them in Poland, because the last one (illegal) was destroyed, which caused an outrage among Ukrainian authorities and they started crying about how much this 'act of vandalism' is harmful for Polish-Ukrainian relations.