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Responsibility for Murder of Catholic Poles during WWII ?


scorpio 20 | 188  
26 Sep 2008 /  #1
I was recently invited to a neighbor's house for a cup of tea. As the hours progressed, three of us got into a historical debate. During World War II, from the beginning to the end, who was responsible for the death of most Catholic Poles...Germans, Russians, or Various Others? My answer to this question, in order, was: Germans, Russians, and Various Others. The two guests with me surprisingly stated: Russians, Germans, Various Others. Any opinions and numbers to support your statements? Thanks.
southern 75 | 7,096  
26 Sep 2008 /  #2
Catholic Poles

I know about Jews.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
26 Sep 2008 /  #3
most poles were/are catholic is that has nothing to do with anything.. germans killed most poles, closely followed by ther reds.. not sure about these various others though.. who?
Dekameron 1 | 146  
26 Sep 2008 /  #4
You composed the title wrongly, it should have said "who killed most Poles during WW 2" and the answer is tricky since i dont consider jewish citizens of Poland as Poles, i'd say Russians killed more though not in direct executions but rather by stuffing people in siberian gulags.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
26 Sep 2008 /  #5
jews in poland were and still are poles. don't be an arse.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
26 Sep 2008 /  #6
My answer to this question, in order, was: Germans, Russians, and Various Others.

Yep. However after all I would change Russians with Soviets.

Any opinions and numbers to support your statements? Thanks.

It depends If you mean Polish citizens or ethnic Poles... and even then It is difficult to give exact numbers as for example many Ukraininans and Belorussians were heavily Polonized, Nazi definition of a Jew included also Catholics with one Jewish grandparent... or It's hard to say, who was responsible for deaths of people killed by Red Army's artillery or air force, when the eastern front was going through Polish lands... or Poles forced to work in German factories, who died when they were bombed by allied (including Polish) air force... or If some child, who died because there wasn't any doctor - the only one in the area was a Jew, so was sent "to take a shower".

But I would say that in case of ethnic Poles that's more or less:
2-2.1 million for Gerries, 400-500k for Soviets and 100k for "others".

not sure about these various others though.. who?

Have mercy...
OP scorpio 20 | 188  
26 Sep 2008 /  #7
...most poles were/are catholic is that has nothing to do with anything...

Right and wrong. Indeed, it is essential to correctly identify who was who. Yes, most Poles were Catholic during that time, and about 10% of Poles were of Jewish origin. Just like in the USA today, you have Americans of various religions: Catholic Americans, Baptist Americans, Jewish Americans, Muslim Americans, Protestant Americans, etc. My question was to the point. I was identifying a specific ethnic and religious group that lived in Poland prior to WWII...Catholic Poles (who made up approximately 85% of the population during that time. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) in history today, the focus is usually on the holocaust of Polish Jews. My question is attributed to the WWII period "Polish Catholics".
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
26 Sep 2008 /  #8
Wrong. Indeed, it is essential to correctly identity who was who. Just like in the USA

USA is a country created by emigrants, so that's something different.

Catholic Poles (who made up approximately 85% of the population during that time.

NO. Only ~70%.
OP scorpio 20 | 188  
26 Sep 2008 /  #9
But I would say that in case of ethnic Poles that's more or less:
2-2.1 million for Gerries, 400-500k for Soviets and 100k for "others".

Grzegorz, your figures seem reasonable according to my historical investigations. Thanks for your input.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
26 Sep 2008 /  #10
Have mercy...

that's not helpful.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
26 Sep 2008 /  #11
You composed the title wrongly, it should have said "who killed most Poles during WW 2" and the answer is tricky since i dont consider jewish citizens of Poland as Poles, i'd say Russians killed more though not in direct executions but rather by stuffing people in siberian gulags.

In your opinion commies killed more than 3 million?

i dont consider jewish citizens of Poland as Poles

In this case, this is not important what you think. This is important how they considered themselves.

that's not helpful.

Ukrainains, Lithuanians, Jews, Slovaks, to mention few.
pawian 173 | 12,577  
26 Sep 2008 /  #12
But I would say that in case of ethnic Poles that's more or less:
2-2.1 million for Gerries, 400-500k for Soviets and 100k for "others".

Grzegorz, your figures seem reasonable according to my historical investigations. Thanks for your input.

Yes, these figures are quite correct. From 1.700.000 to 2.000.000 ethnic Poles were killed due to German war activities or extermination.

Ukrainains, Lithuanians, Jews, Slovaks, to mention few.

Ukrainian UPA murdered, according to various estimates, from 30 to 60 thousand ethnic Poles in Volhynia region.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
26 Sep 2008 /  #13
Ukrainains, Lithuanians, Jews, Slovaks, to mention few.

they were killing poles? hmm

thanks lesser
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
26 Sep 2008 /  #14
In this case, this is not important what you think. This is important how they considered themselves.

Most considered themselves Jewish, not Polish. As per Czeslaw Milosz's memoirs most Jews in Poland didn't even speak Polish.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
21 Feb 2009 /  #15
Perhaps this has been answered before in other forums here but can someone give me information on Jewish involvement with the Soviet army during WWII? Of particular interest is the invasion of Poland on Sept 17 and after. Were Jews pointing out Poles for death, etc?

Thank you (in advance)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
22 Feb 2009 /  #16
Jewish involvement in mass murder of Poles.

When in 17 sept 1939 the Red Army attacked Poland Jews ( including the population of Jedwabne ) took a massive and active part in pointing out Poles for deportation, later on Jews joined NKVD, the NKVD units in the Eastern Poland were almost exclusively jewish.

Question, why did the Jews turn so easily on their former friends, neighbours clients and employees ? Does the subject of jewish genocide on the polish nation gets enough publicity ? Is Polocaust a justified term here ?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
22 Feb 2009 /  #17
Well, let's start from the criticism levelled against the Poles by Jews. Many identified Poland with Anti-Semitism, more or less synonymous.

youtube.com/watch?v=N294FMDok98 some comments here are relevant

They had to escape pogroms like in Kielce for example.

This is one side of the argument, I'll explore the other is people show interest.
sjam 2 | 541  
23 Feb 2009 /  #18
the NKVD units in the Eastern Poland were almost exclusively jewish.

Where is the documentary evidence of this statement? You have previously mentioned that IPN have such a document which validates your statement, please, what is the title of this document, and page(s) which records 'NKVD units in the Eastern Poland were almost exclusively jewish'?

They had to escape pogroms like in Kielce for example.

And from years just before WWII with the rise of Nazi styled fascist elements in Poland:

Starting in early 1935, boycotts of Jews spread all through the Polish countryside. These were followed by pogroms: window-smashing, the overturning of Jewish market stalls, beatings, arson, and finally murder. The details of these brutalities are repetitive and terrible.

In 1935 pogroms took place at Radomsko in April, at Radosc (near Warsaw) and Grochow in May, at Grodno in May. In December [1935] these isolated occurrences began to harden into a campaign: disturbances in Klwow, Lodz, Katowice, Kielce, and Hrubieszow were followed in January 1936 by attacks on Jews in Cracow and Warsaw, among other places.

On March 9, 1936, a pogrom occurred at Przytyk, where two Jews were killed and many houses burned: Bombs were thrown in those same months in 13 more towns, including Minsk Mazowiecki; there a second pogrom occurred in early June and, after four Jews had been killed, most of the Jewish population left for Warsaw.

During 1936 and early 1937 the pogroms became a daily occurrence in Poland, and clearly indicated increasingly better oganization. In Czestochowa riots started in June 1937 with a fight between two porters; a well-organized boycott movement against the Jews prolonged the unrest there for months. In the course of the Czestochowa pogrom, the Endek paper Ganiec Czestochowski gave lists of streets on which Jews had not as yet been robbed. 75 Jews were wounded in this particular outbreak.

In May 1937 another outbreak occurred at Brest Litovsk, where a number of Jews were killed and some 200 wounded.

Between May 1935 and January 1937, 118 Jews were killed and 1,350 wounded; 137 Jewish stores were destroyed. A total of 348 separate violent mass assaults on Jews were counted during the period, and the compilation was termed both "unofficial" and "incomplete". Another compilation showed that between the end of 1935 and March 1939, 350 Jews had been killed and 500 wounded.

The wave of pogroms did not abate throughout 1937 and 1938. In August 1937 five severe outbreaks occurred in central Poland, and anti-Jewish demonstrations occurred in seven towns, including the capital.

One result of these events was an increased movement of the Jews from smaller places, where they felt themselves exposed, to the larger towns, where they thought they would be safer.

But in early 1938 the riots spread to Warsaw, and from then on attacks on Jews in the larger cities became a normal occurrence. In 1938 and 1939 the anti-Jewish boycott movement became more and more effective. Again, it was mainly the small Jewish communities that were hit, and in this a parallel to the experience in Germany can clearly be discerned. These boycott actions were usually organized by the Endeks, but by early 1939 the government OZN group also supported them.

Question, why did the Jews turn so easily on their former friends, neighbours clients and employees ?

So simply revenge by Polish Jews could have been a strong motivating factor to take into consideration.
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
23 Feb 2009 /  #19
they were killing poles? hmm

You might consider that both the Nazis and the Soviets had regiments made up of people from places like Lithuania, Latvia (Lenin's bodyguard were Latvian) and Ukraine. In some cases they may have been "ethnic Germans" or people who wanted to have a go at the Poles for past times.

Both Sovs and Nazis were very good at exploiting historical ethnic hatreds.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
23 Feb 2009 /  #20
Well gentlemen (and ladies?) I appreciate the follow-up and indeed will attempt to verify all these "pogroms" and other actions attributed to Poles in the 1930's. This post WWI activity surprises me as my reading of Norman Davies books about Poland shows a Polish history of welcoming Jews (in general). That's why there were so many Jews in Poland in the first place.

Now, I am still interested in specific Jewish crimes against Poles following the Soviet invasion in September of '39. Anyone?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
23 Feb 2009 /  #21
jews in poland were and still are poles. don't be an arse.

I agree with the guy, Jewish nationality excludes being Polish, you're either a Pole or a Jew, you can be a jewish citizen of Poland but that doesnt make you a Pole.
Harry  
23 Feb 2009 /  #22
Jewish nationality excludes being Polish, you're either a Pole or a Jew

Fortunately the laws of Poland disagree with you.

Which reminds me, the police haven't come knocking on my door yet. Haven't you followed up on your threat to report my criminal behaviour?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
23 Feb 2009 /  #23
Fortunately the laws of Poland disagree with you.

Ah but they do, they treat Jews as citizens.

Which reminds me, the police haven't come knocking on my door yet. Haven't you followed up on your threat to report my criminal behaviour?

Wouldnt know, i reported it yesterday it takes weeks, last time we nailed someone it took them 23 days so patience young padawan.
sjam 2 | 541  
24 Feb 2009 /  #24
Fortunately the laws of Poland disagree with you.

Fictions are nothing new to Sokrates. Using the term 'Polish Concentration Camps' was claimed to be banned in Poland by Sokrates which is just not true either!

Which reminds me, the police haven't come knocking on my door yet. Haven't you followed up on your threat to report my criminal behaviour?

Delusional fantasist!
celinski 31 | 1,258  
24 Feb 2009 /  #25
Whats amazing is even "Katyn" can point at Polish anti-Semites as the cause if the writer wants to slander Polish. Such a horrific massacre and to have this finger pointing is ill.

. Also, the arithmetic of KatyƄ, like that of Schindler's List and Defiance, is dwarfed by that of the Nazi Holocaust, much of which occurred on Polish soil with the tacit complicity of many Polish anti-Semites.

observer.com/2009/o2/brutal-art-house-drama-describes-stalin-s-atrocities

cheehaw 2 | 263  
13 Oct 2009 /  #26
I was wondering how many Poles really died during WWII also. I guess that could include afterward as well since the soviets occupied till 1989.

My mom had a friend who had a tattoo on her arm from a concentration camp, in Poland, Treblenka if I remember correctly, and the woman was full-blooded polish, not a jew. There were polish people in concentration camps and many died i know for sure. That woman verified it.

I ran into this article at jedwabne.net:

A memorial plaque that was erected at the site of the barn after the war read: "Here is the site of the massacre where the Gestapo and Hitler's gendarmes burned alive 1600 Jewish people. 10.VII. 1941." Such was the official version of history for almost 60 years, until the appearance of the book Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community of Jedwabne, Poland by Jan T. Gross, a Polish-born Professor at NYU. In the course of his research, Gross discovered that, in fact, it was not the recently arrived Nazis, but local Polish residents who had carried out this massacre. The book, first published in Polish in May 2000, caused a painful and far-reaching public debate. The dispute was fueled by the realization that the book would soon appear in English, making the story widely known beyond Poland's borders

But I am not sure if is just pro-jewish propoganda overlooking what was done to the polish people by Bolsheviks prior to the war, Nazis, and then Soviets. There are german documents - Generalplan Ost - that state the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Poles along with the jews, all slavs in fact. The concentration camps were not just jews.
Crow 139 | 8,280  
13 Oct 2009 /  #27
Responsibility for Murder of Catholic Poles during WWII ?

hardly that murderers of Poles in WWII had intention to murdering exclusively Catholic Poles. Target were all the Poles

but, considering that Germans represent biggest murderers of Poles in general we can ask how is that possible when among them we can found significant number of Catholics. So, how is this possible?

simple answer is that in the eyes of hostile non-Slavs, all Slavs- no matter Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant represent infidels which are destined to be subjugated to the masters on so called west.

On the other side we must ask how is possible that head of all Catholics (Vatican) failed to protect Catholic Poles from Catholic Germans. This is real question

well, as a Serbian, i understand this situation. Vatican failed to protect Catholic Serbs, too. Somehow, germanization always founds way to bypass Vatican. Agressive German interests are above power of Vatican. Think about that
sjam 2 | 541  
13 Oct 2009 /  #28
My mom had a friend who had a tattoo on her arm from a concentration camp, in Poland, Treblenka if I remember correctly

Treblinka? I think your memory is incorrect.
Harry  
13 Oct 2009 /  #29
My mom had a friend who had a tattoo on her arm from a concentration camp, in Poland, Treblenka if I remember correctly, and the woman was full-blooded polish, not a jew.

That is exceptionally unlikely. There are several reasons:
a) Treblinka was not a concentration camp.
b) Treblinka was an Aktion Reinhardt and Jews were sent to Aktion Reinhardt camps, not Catholics (although a number of Roma were executed at Belzec).

c) Tattoos were not put on people at Treblinka (they weren't going to be there long).
d) Some 800,000 people were sent to Treblinka. 40 survived.
cheehaw 2 | 263  
13 Oct 2009 /  #30
Well it doesn't really matter which camp she was at, it wasn't aushwitz that's a for sure. She had a blue tattooed number on her arm and she was definitely held at a concentration camp as a child.

She died about 15 years ago. The woman was cold as a stone.

There is a big problem with the vatican I am aware of that. I grew up near buffalo NY where every Polish person is catholic.

I did leave that church I admit. Still a Christian though. I respect the faith of catholics, i know many faithful catholics. There is just a problem there, most of them don't want to explore that. The problem is not the catholic people, something with the vatican, political things, liasons. There is too much too go into, one of those endless trails, I've tried.

1.5 million armenian christians were killed by nazis too, killed by turks actually if history is correct.

I am aware that the genocide was against all Poles, how many altogether though?

I have rarely met a german catholic over here, mostly lutherans, baptists.

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