Responsibility for Murder of Catholic Poles during WWII ?

those that never considered themselves Poles too? who's first language was Yiddish and who sometimes hardly spoke any Polish?

Not true. Hitler started raging about the Jews way before he ever started raging about "Lebensraum" in the East. Jews were his main target and as a civilian group the biggest group to perish. He foresaw a big group of Slavs as slaves, hence leaving them alive, while he did not see any future role for the Jews; they all had to die. I'm not talking about where the big game was played as we all know where that was, but about the group of ppl he wanted to vanish from the face of the Earth.

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M-G (tiens)

it doesn't reflect what you quote or I have some reading disorder - Poles can go to Israel yes - but I hardly can imagine they receive any residence status there - I bet they just stay and work there illegally (unless being of Jewish descent)

Read the section of the "naturalisation". It states it very clearly.

In case of reading disorders, you may want to consult a doctor? :)

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M-G (tiens)

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship through naturalization. To be eligible for naturalization, a person must have resided in Israel for three years out of the previous five years. In addition, the applicant must have a right to reside in Israel on a permanent basis. All naturalization requests are, however, at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior.

a wikipedia excerpt - you have to be legally residing in Israel for three year out of last five - do you think Polish people easily get (permanent) residency in Israel? what does the discretion of the Ministry of Interior mean - I guess it means they grant citizenship whom they wish

gumishu

You can get temporary visa - don't know for how long they are valid (I have never been to Israël), but I take it that if you are there based on those for 3 years out of the last 5, you can apply.


Yes - but isn't that the case with all countries? For example, if the Polish government doesn't want you to have a citizenship, they can refuse you this as well.

I read somewhere that if one has some sort of record of performing deeds of hatred towards Jewish ppl, be this in writing or in actual deeds, one will never be able to obtain citizenship in IL. This is normal, imo. And of course the laws concerning immigration and citizenship are stricter than other countries. One must not forget that the state of IL was created to provide a territory for the Jewish entity in the world after an attempt was made to exterminate them, which nearly wiped them off the face of the Earth. It's nothing more than logic that they sharpen the rules in order to protect the Jewish ppl for the future.

Have a look at this: ujia.org.il

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M-G (tiens)

I think you don't know what you are writing about. It's not that I do. But I am pretty sure you have next to zero knowlegde of the practice. (say permanent residence issues)

gumishu

Does anybody participating in this discussion? No, I never went through the process et al, so I cannot speak from experience, no. I have to go on what I read, just like everybody else here who has not gone through the process. Only difference is that some see it as some evil scheme and others do not.

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M-G (do you have practice experience?)

What do you mean?In my Kampf(1923) he writes about his plans both for Jews and Slavs.
If you mean with who he begann,he begann probably with Jews since Jews were living in Germany.But Nazis started exterminating Jews only after 1941 and the start of the russian campaign.This was no coincidence.


Not exactly.Poles were to become slaves,czechs would be germanized and assimilated into Reich with a question and russians would be extermined as a whole in european Russia to make space for germanic settlers.

This implies he would leave them alive to be of some "use" to the Germans. What good would a dead slave be? None. For Jews there was no room at all, not even as slave, if you catch my drift.


Indeed it was no coincidence, but this has two reasons:

1) there were simply more Jews in Eastern Europe than there were in the West and in most (not all) Western countries Jews were much more assimilated than in RU and to a lesser extent in PL as well. In Holland, for example, the Germans simply had to go to the citizens-register in the townhalls to pick out the Jews as upon registration everybody had to state their religion. Dutch Jews, being as Dutch as the non-Jewish Dutch, properly went to register themselves when asked by the Dutch government and had a "J" filled in the column for religion. Catholics had "RK", Protestants "Pr" and so on. So the Nazis only had to check those registers to see if anybody had a "J" in that particular column and pay them a visit afterwards.

2) the Nazis knew that they could do this in Eastern Europe rightaway and not in Western Europe, because anti-semitism wasn't as deeply rooted in the West as it was in the East. They knew if they would start shooting and killing Jews the way they did in PL or in RU, the Westerners would never accept that, hence cause a lot of unrest they didn't need. Therefore, they started shooting Jews immediately after the invasion in RU and in the West they started later on, slowly and not as drastic, calling it "resettlement" or relocating Jews to "work" in PL. The majority of the Western Jews even had to pay their own train ticket to the death camps to disguise the true intention of the "Umsiedlung" (relocation) project.

Edit: ps, the behaviour of the Nazis as described in point 2 was typical, their approach in the Western occupied territories was much different than in the East. This was mainly due to the fact that they saw the Westerners as more civilized and more closer to themselves. This does not take away the fact that when they saw that their approach was not successful, this approach turned a lot harsher.

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M-G (shopping soon)

You don't understand the german logic.Germans divided the occupied nations into those who are fit for manual work and those who are unfit for manual work.Poles were regarded as fit for manual work and so they were allowed to survive although they were not allowed to be educated at all.(that is why nazis exterminated all polish professors,higher class members etc).A Pole would be allowed just to learn to read and make his signature.The same with the ukrainian.

On the other hand the Russians,the Jews,the gypsies,the gays etc were condemned as not capable of manual work and so they had to die.

But he would be left alive. Not killed straightaway. That's what I'm trying to say all the time.

Edit: in addition to my previous post: they did start immediately in the West, but the measures were different: Jews were slowly, but surely, removed from public life. They were refused all the things that made them Jewish and were removed from positions they held in pre-war times. After that, the relocations began.

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M-G (tiens)

Yes,the Pole and the Ukrainian.The Russian and the Belarus had to die because he was judged unfit for manual work.That is what I write.Hitler made distinctions between Slavs:

1.Plan for assimilation of Czechs if they were proved to be germanized soon enough
2.Plan for turning Poles into slave wrokers for the Reich
3.Plan for extermination of Russians and settlement of germanic settlers all over russian land and Ukraine


Is this a joke?Germans would kill Jews anyway no matter if they located in western,eastern or southern Europe.Their fate was meant to be the same.

The difference is that after invading SU,they captured a huge number of Jews who could build the concentration camps needed for the project.Maybe till 1941 the Nazs planned simply to relocate the Jews to another continent but after having to deal with vast numbers they abandoned the idea and they went straight for use of Jews in armament production in concentration camps where work and death were connected.

There were discussions in nazi headquarters if it is better to exploit the Jews as workers(like POWs from France etc) or kill them straight away.A similar discussion was made about russian POWs.In the beginning there was some killing but after the colossal demands for worker hands in armament production(german women were not allowed to work unlike in western countries where they boosted gun production facilities),Germans decided to examine Jews and Russians and those who were found fit for work were allowed to work in the concentration camps,the rest ending straight into the gas chambers.

Gradually the Germans were amazed by the russian ability for manual work and begann to change their views drastically but it was too late.

I don't think you understand what I am saying in that post. Pls read it again. They didn't start killing them straightaway in the West. They made life harder and harder for them and eventually they were to be exterminated in the camps in PL. I never said that it was the goal of the Nazis to leave the Western Jews alive. I just said that the approach was different than in the East. But pls, read again, you will see.

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M-G (tiens)

the same in Poland they did not start killing them straight away.First they built the Warsaw ghetto,then they enclosed them inside,then they built the concentration camps and then they started the project.Methodical they were for sure.

In Greece the same happened.One day in 1943 after two years of occupation the Germans gathered 40000 Jews living in Salonika and sent them straight away to Auschwitz.Noone came back.

southern

Dutch cities had gettos too. Most notably the one in Amsterdam. They didn't build walls around it though: they just used the geographical features: they closed all access to the getto by pulling up all bridges that lead to the getto and in A'dam, to access any part of the city, you will have to cross a bridge sooner or later.

Yep the fate of the Jews living on Korfu is also well known in the West.

Edit: like I stated earlier on, perhaps here lies the reason why the emphasis in post-war regulations concerning the punishment of Holocaust-denial: the extermination of Jews, Gypsies, etc, was an international thing - it happened all over Europe, where the extermination of Slavs was a much more localised thing, hence may not appeal as much to other nationalities who don't live in the affected area.

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M-G (let's say that all exterminations in WW2 on civilians were the biggest blunder ever made by humans - no wonder Mother Nature tries to kill us nearly every year)

That is why Poles dismiss the western version of WW2 as irrelevant.

Like they were the only ones to suffer, you mean? It does fit in the self-pitying behaviour they have shown so far.

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M-G (surely that can't be true)

You are thick. I keep telling you I am a man but you keep on.


What has been happening for 2000 years? This should be interesting.


I thought you were all against violence, racism, and all the other socialist/communist slogans.



Jewish smears. For the first two years of the war, the Jewish population in Poland was working dilligently for the Reich while Poles were dying on the battlefield and others were tortured and executed. There was no plan to exterminate the Jews then and they thought they could sit the war (it;s not our war) out if they only were useful to the Germans.


Judeophobia was universal throughout time whenever Jews came in contact with other nationalities, be it Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Europeans. The question is why? Give your best shot at the answer but you are at a disadvantage since you don't know much about Judaism. Here is a hint. If you consider me "unclean" and will not sit down to the table with me, I might not like you.

You said yourself that your nick was a girl's name. But it doesn't matter anyway.


Are you really so ignorant or are you just pretending you are? Jews have been the victims of willfull killing thru all times. Every time the crop failed - the Jews got the blame; the Jews were to blame for the plague because they were supposed to have infested the water AND because they didn't get as many sick as the Christians did. While in truth it was spread by rats and the fact that Jews didn't get that many plague-deaths was only because they had strict hygienic laws, washed their hands much more often and so on. In York, in the heart of the Middle Ages locals killed the Jews because they didn't want to return the money they had borrowed from the Jews. I could go on and on and on. Fact is that every other generation there came a incompetent loser who, of course, blamed the Jews for his own failures and mobilised ppl to kill them. The Holocaust was just a culmination, a bloody depth in a long "tradition".


Violence is usually a right-wing method to reach their goals. I consider a slap on the butt of a child no violence and it has a correcting purpose and nobody has gotten any worse from a good slap on the butt when misbehaving. But it should remain a slap on the butt and not turn into outright abuse. Racism is also usually a right-wing method and has nothing to do with correcting your child.


Let me tell you: I am Jewish AND I am from the West. And aside from my grandmother, it was never an issue as such. We didn't go to synagogue nor did we go to any church. We just lived our lives as Dutch ppl. Until I got in contact with Eastern Europeans. Suddenly I got remarks like "but you're Jewish". "Yeah, so?" "You're Jewish!" "So, does my beer taste less because of that? Does a girl's breasts fall off when I kiss her?" and so on. When I joined this forum it became even more apparent. Never had that before in all my life. So apparently Jews or Jewishness is an issue in the East. Hence the case that anti-semitism (or Jews/being a Jew) is much more an issue in the East than in the West is easily proven.


Hm, how about the forced moving to ghettos within months of PL's defeat? How about restricting life for Jews? How about Bab Yar? Yes - they worked and the "Endlösung" wasn't on until January 1942, but there were random killings all over the place. To the same extent as they executed Poles, even more. I will not involve those brave Polish army corpses that fled to the West and bravely fought here and there. Those are heroes without a doubt and in Holland they get the honour they deserve. In my area ppl speak highly about the Polish paratroopers at Arnhem, they got medals and several memorials. Tusk was in Arnhem last September to commemorate the 65th anniversary of the battle of Arnhem.


See previous answer. All of my friends are non-Jewish ppl, be it Dutch, German or Irish. So I think it's all between the ears of most Poles that Jews don't want to talk to them. Or maybe they don't want to talk to them because there were traitors among the Poles (like among any ppl that were occupied)? However, fact is that Jews nowadays interact quite normally with non-Jews, but on this forum it seems that this is in PL not the case. But I don't think that this forum is representative for the Polish society. A Polish girl can fall in love with a Jewish boy and a Jewish girl can fall in love with a Polish boy, it's as simple as that. On this forum there are too many ppl still living in the past, that's the problem. But if this forum is a true repro of PL society, then I think both groups need to give in a little otherwise it won't work. Poles as well as Jews.

Like said, I am Jewish, but I am not religious at all. If I consider somebody "unclean" then it's solely because he didn't wash his hands after the toilet or has other, hygiene related issues. It's just a basic sense of cleanliness, nothing to do with religion as such. Yeah, we're not supposed to eat pork, but I eat pork nevertheless and I don't like lamb at all. Maybe they won't sit at the table with you because they just don't like you? You cannot be liked by everybody, you know.

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M-G (it's time some ppl here should start viewing Jews as normal ppl, just like everybody else)

Yes,Jews were the only nation which refused to accept the hellenistic culture.They revolted all the time.

That's strange because I always understood that the Jews and Greek got along very well and there was no such thing as anti-semitism in Greece.



The White Tower of Thessaloniki, on the edge of the Jewish quarter of Thessaloniki, "Mother of Israël".

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M-G (ancient cultures alike)

I speak about ancient times.In Old Testament there is huge passage about jewish revolutions and struggles against Greeks.


Yes,this is true.Our archibishop was the only one in Europe during occupation to express officially complains to the german authorities about the deportation of Jews.

We also helped many Jews to escape by providing them with identity cards with greek names.

so what is an apostate jew? an arab?

here is a page that deals with that by well researched writer:

According to the current Jewish-American press, about half of the Jews in Israel today are Negroes and dark-skinned Orientals. A constant tug of war goes on, with continuous charges of "discrimination" raised by Oriental and Negro Jews against the Western Jews.

--

and probably to answer why there is such an outcry among jews to remember their holocaust but none others.. well jews are men but gentiles are beast, sub-human, not worthy of remembering. Pretty simple in the mind of talmudic jews.

You need to study the history of the bolshevik revolution from the russian perspective (you may not get truth from 20th century western history about this) to understand why, in Russia today, there are groups attemping to outlaw judiaism in russia altogether.

The real Jews seem to have a slightly different view of the Western, in this case Dutch, role and attitude toward the Jews.

From the Jerusalem Centert of Public Affairs:


jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=442&PID=0&IID=1215#

Read the whole article and tell me your reaction.

As to the other issues, you seem to miss the point of my post altogether.

My post trying to have you use your brain to some of the causes of anti-Semitism in history:


You didn't understand and replied:


The Jews I know are my friends and are not followers of Judaism so we often chow together. This has nothing to do with me nor my friends. Think about it.

1jola

Did they, when they invaded Western Europe immediately start rounding up the Jews and shooting them, like they did in the Ukraine and Belarus? Don't think so.

Oh, I did understand your posting, I just wanted to take it out of the religious sphere. As I am not religious at all and was not raised according to Judaic traditions, I never saw the point of reacting to ppl based on some religious morality or guideline. But of course, I don't understand. You are so smart and enlightened that us mere mortals never will get a grasp of the wisdom of your words. And all of it is to find some justification for what is not to be justified by any means nor for any reason.

I am very well aware of Dutch collaboration during WW2. Dutch mentality has always been one to kinda "adjust" to new situations. It has a Dutch word for it: "schipperen", which means that you just adhere to the new bosses, no matter who they are, and live to the new rules. 80% of the Dutch did so. Heck, even the Dutch Jews were doing so. And about the stealing: you got golddiggers everywhere, criminals and vagebonds, so I am also aware of that. Read Jacques Presser's "Ashes in the Wind" and you will have a clear view on what most Dutch did during the war from a Dutch perspective. My own family has been betrayed by a Dutchman, he was my family's neighbour. Why? Because before the war he was jealous of those rich Jews, so he became a National Socialist. In the War, he saw his chance. But that's a very long story, not suitable for this thread. I spoke to him while on University, doing research on Dutch mentality during WW2. He only realised later on during the interview that I was descending from the ppl he had betrayed, apologized, cried and told me why he did it. In short, I do know what was going on. There is no need to quote some Israelian source about Dutch behaviour when everybody in Holland knows what was going on and admits to it as well, unlike the Poles do. And also unlike the Poles, the Dutch seek the fault within themselves and do not try to blame others for it - that is, besides the obvious things to be blamed on the Germans.

The causes of anti-semitism? Well, you can try to find some higher reasons, some deeply noble and understandable causes, but the main reason for anti-semitism is jealousy, plain and simple. Jealousy of being not able to accomplish what some other group has, venting your frustration of some mishap that has happened to you on some other group, diverting attention away from your own crimes by pointing at "THEM", wanting to find scapegoats for your own failures. It's easy to understand, you don't need to bother to find some religious reasons; they may have existed in the very early stages of Jewish settlement in Europe, but they became quickly irrelevant as Jews were outsiders, newcomers, hence the easiest to blame. It's all so primitive, but it's a clear case of "us" against "them". And that is what anti-semitism is all about. Nothing else. So, pls, don't try to find some religious ground as justification as there is none. It's much more primitive, it's like what's currently happening in Europe concerning the Muslims. They're the newest group, the easiest to blame for all the mishap.

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M-G (and what are you trying to prove? That the Dutch were not clean? Everybody in Holland knows that and unlike the Poles, they do not try to wash themselves clean -there is a reason why NL is such a vivd supporter of Israël)

Just when I think we are comunicating, you come up with the above. Back to square one.


Judeophobia has existed long before anyone could be jelous of the Jewish achievements. How do you explain the Greeks and Romans considering the Jews as "enemies of humanity?" The first quote above shows you don't understand what "unclean" is in Jewish eyes. It's important to understand that people like you, non-religeous, are a very recent occurence. So, once again, how do you think a Greek, a Roman, a Frenchmen, felt toward a group of people who considered him "unclean", a mere beast-lke creature. This concept you will find in Judaism. I wonder if you know that "DO NOT STEAL" applies to only fellow Jews, not gentiles. "Love your neighbour?" Well, sorry, that doesn't apply to the goyim.

Besides, what would the Romans be jealous of some strange tribe with their very primitive laws and whose culture amounted to separation from the rest of citizens. Surely, later on iin Europe there might have been resentment involved, but who likes tax-collectors, money lenders, and middle-men who consider others as unclean animals.

In all this, it is improbable that all througout the ages different races and nationalities just coincidentaly didn't like Jews. The answer is perhaps in their extremely racist and offensive beliefs.

I don't have to imagine your anger at the thought the Germans considered you a "sub-human". Now replace untermenschen with goyim.

Basically the Jews refuse to assimilate.

Yes, they have been accused of not keeping the social contract in their host country.

I don't think so Western Europe wasn't as deeply rooted or less anti- semitic than Eastern Europe, it was even more anti -semitic. Read some books about Holland, Belgium, France and how meny Jews were betrayed and transported to the concentration camps "polish camps"?. Read some books about the countries which populations were against deportation of Jews, Bulgaria, Greece not forgoten how many Poles were exterminated because of helping Jews. Read about Dutch, French-colaborateurs and than give some statements.