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Responsibility for Murder of Catholic Poles during WWII ?


porzeczka - | 102  
13 Oct 2009 /  #31
Ukrainian UPA murdered, according to various estimates, from 30 to 60 thousand ethnic Poles in Volhynia region.

30 thousand - must be some old estimates. 50 to 60 thousand Polish civilians in Volhynia alone, and around 100,000 altogether.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
13 Oct 2009 /  #32
Germans, Russians, or Various Others?

You just answered yourself, Germans, Russians, Jews, Ukrainians - in that order.
MarcinK - | 36  
13 Oct 2009 /  #33
not sure about these various others though.. who?

The OUN-UPA, chauvinist Ukrainians.

As per Czeslaw Milosz's memoirs most Jews in Poland didn't even speak Polish.

I know a Jewish Holocaust survivor who was 17 when the war broke out, he told me that he was part of the first generation of Jews living in Poland that actually had to learn Polish, his parents didn't speak it, they either spoke Yiddish, German and a little bit of Hebrew, the dominate languages in Jewish areas. The same went for his ancestors.

Both mostly they spoke Yiddish.
caprice49 4 | 224  
21 Oct 2009 /  #34
This is one side of the argument, I'll explore the other

This might highlight a few suppressed facts:- geocities.com/.../jedwabne_a_zbrodnie_na_kresach_2.htm
cheehaw 2 | 263  
21 Oct 2009 /  #35
I keep running across a lot of this type of information looking from the Russian side of things.

Alexander Solschenitsyn, "200 Jahre zusammen." Die russisch-jüdische Geschichte 1795-1916 (200 Years Together. The Russian-Jewish History 1795-1916), Herbig, Munich 2002, 560 pp., €34.90; "Zweihundert Jahre zusammen," Die Juden in der Sowjetunion (200 Years Together. The Jews in the Soviet Union

vho.org/tr/2004/3/Strauss342-351.html

The Prop-Masters
Perpetrators of the holocaust against Christian Russia transform themselves into "survivors" of "the Holocaust"
revisionisthistory.org/communist.html

A lot of anti-jewish raving from that end..

I have not looked real hard at things from the German side at this point in time, there is so much propaganda out there about Germany, Hitler this and Hitler that, so that's more difficult.

I do know a little bit, firsthand, having known older Germans here and there over the years, even a few that fought for Germany in WW2, I even knew an older German couple who were 'Hitler Youth'.. got to know them pretty well, they really took a liking to me, I was about 30 at the time.. and there was absolutely no indication from these people whatsoever that they did not like me because I was Polish.. quite the opposite, they were constantly inviting me over to their house, the old man telling me his war stories, the old lady impressing me with her pastry recipes. They were definitely pretty reticent about what went on in Poland.

I have not known many real Russians in my lifetime, just one younger Russian jew in NYC, a woman about my age, in particular, who was a very good friend until I converted to Christianity, at which point she refused to talk to me again. Which surprised me a lot because we were pretty good friends, would hang out, eat dinner together, etc. Another male jewish friend from college, same thing. And we had been pretty close friends for at least a decade.

so, just going on how people have treated me over the years (i'm late 40's now), attitudes and stuff.. I don't think Germans in general would have outright killed Polish people simply because they were Catholic, many germans are catholic, many more lutheran, baptist etc.. I do know the Jewish Talmud teaches that Jesus is in hell boiling in a vat of excrement and that 'goyim' (gentiles, non-jews) are low-life.

difficult question.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
21 Oct 2009 /  #36
I have not known many real Russians in my lifetime, just one younger Russian jew in NYC, a woman about my age, in particular, who was a very good friend until I converted to Christianity, at which point she refused to talk to me again. Which surprised me a lot because we were pretty good friends, would hang out, eat dinner together, etc. Another male jewish friend from college, same thing. And we had been pretty close friends for at least a decade.

Might I ask what was your former religion and wherever you are Jewish by ethnic origin? It would help me to better understand this situation.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
21 Oct 2009 /  #37
I converted to Christianity

From what? Muslim? Or Judaism? In the last case it's like the smoker that stops smoking - no more fanatical anti-smokers than ex-smokers. Or is it just because of these two incidents that you hate your former co-religionists? I'm not religious, but if I would be then I would be a Jew.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
cheehaw 2 | 263  
22 Oct 2009 /  #38
Might I ask what was your former religion and wherever you are Jewish by ethnic origin? It would help me to better understand this situation.

Just wasn't any religion really. Was raised catholic sort of, attend church on sundays as a little kid with the family like most polish people, but I hadn't been to church in many years.. was never a serious thing in our family.

you can try to understand it, I don't understand why they did that to this day. serious, we were real good friends.

From what? Muslim? Or Judaism? In the last case it's like the smoker that stops smoking - no more fanatical anti-smokers than ex-smokers. Or is it just because of these two incidents that you hate your former co-religionists? I'm not religious, but if I would be then I would be a Jew.

stick your own hate up your dupa you stupid polish hating kapusta head.

quit judging me. I love jews, they are still some of my best friends, I have others. Now my jewish friends are messianic christians though heh.

they are great tailors, key to success.. :)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
22 Oct 2009 /  #39
scorpio

According to Wikipedia the numbers were like this:

Total Population: 34,849,000
Militairy Deaths: 240,000
Civilian (non Jewish) deaths: 2,380,000 to 2,580,000
Jewish Deaths: 3,000,000
Total Deaths: 5,620,000 to 5,820,000
Percentage of total Pop.: 16.1% to 16.7%

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ww2_deaths)

It's impossible to determine how many non-Jewish Poles were killed by whom, also to exactly determine how many deaths there were in total as it was such a mess, it will always remain estimates as far as the non-Jewish Poles are concerned. For the Jewish Poles it's safe to assume that the Nazis were responsible for, say, 98% of the killings.

stick your own hate up your dupa you stupid polish hating kapusta head.

I don't hate, I never do. I just called you upon your one-sided reporting of things and your questionable sources.

>^..^<

M-G (hurry)
1jola 14 | 1,879  
22 Oct 2009 /  #40
It's impossible to determine how many non-Jewish Poles were killed by whom, also to exactly determine how many deaths there were in total as it was such a mess, it will always remain estimates as far as the non-Jewish Poles are concerned.

Whoever uses the term "non-Jewish Poles" should also refer to himself "a non-Muslim Dutchman."

While we have laws enforcing the numbers of Jewish deaths imposed on us, we silly Poles just don't know who died in our country because it is impossible to determine. lol
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
22 Oct 2009 /  #41
Whoever uses the term "non-Jewish Poles"

It was just meant to differenciate between ppl of Catholic faith and Judaic faith. But I thought that was obvious. I personally prefer to name just the nationality, but since there are some lost souls on this forum who will start shouting "but the Jews were not Poles", I decided to call it like this. And again it's not ok. Some ppl just cannot be pleased, it seems.

While we have laws enforcing the numbers of Jewish deaths imposed on us

Maybe that's because the killing of the Jews in WW2 was a much more international thing than the killing of Poles? There were Jews from all over Europe being killed, while the Poles that were killed were from Poland.

>^..^<

M-G (now stop nagging)
Harry  
22 Oct 2009 /  #42
While we have laws enforcing the numbers of Jewish deaths imposed on us,

You wouldn't happen to have the name of that law handy would you? Either that or the Journal of Laws entry number. I've just had a search through Lex and can't find anything about that of which you speak.

Wouldnt know, i reported it yesterday it takes weeks, last time we nailed someone it took them 23 days so patience young padawan.

Perhaps you should give the police another call. It's been some 35 weeks now.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
22 Oct 2009 /  #43
Harry

Indeed, now you mention it. Germany and Austria are, as far as I know, the only countries who actually have laws that can put you into jail if you deny the Holocaust. No other country has such laws, except that it's generally not acceptable in Western countries if you do so. I don't know about Poland in that regards, but I take it that it's not accepted there either. But I'm not sure, given the self-pity I see some Poles display here on this forum.

>^..^<

M-G (the majority of the Poles are decent ppl though)
vetala - | 382  
22 Oct 2009 /  #44
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Poland
Harry  
22 Oct 2009 /  #45
Yes I know about that law. But my reading of that law is that it covers denying the holocaust, not questioning the numbers and 1jola said "we have laws enforcing the numbers of Jewish deaths imposed on us".
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
22 Oct 2009 /  #46
vetala

Thank you. I wasn't aware of that and I didn't have time to look it up myself. But it's good that it's so widespread in order to prevent this cancer of society to come up again.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
George8600 10 | 636  
22 Oct 2009 /  #47
Surely, Hitler/Himmler and Stalin did see Polish Catholicism as an inferiority in the Polish society, however regardless of what Poland was religiously, they would have most likely done the same things that they did. So I agree, the Catholic part is irrelevant.
cheehaw 2 | 263  
22 Oct 2009 /  #48
Sokrates:
Jewish nationality excludes being Polish, you're either a Pole or a Jew

Fortunately the laws of Poland disagree with you.

There is some logic to this... The Poles granted citizenship to the jews, who, according to my research, were invited to live in Poland when they were expunged from western Europe. (18th century?). So, jews became Poles.. however perhaps it is worthwhile noting that though Jews may be Poles via immigration, Jews do not consider Poles to be Jews, eg; Poles are not granted jewish citizenship in Israel.

So Jews are Poles, but Poles are not Jews. A bit of a discrepancy there. They are us but we are not them.

Which is a rather illogical equation that only adds up in Poland.

I guess, since it seems to be the jews holding onto their jewish identity and not the Poles enforcing that identity upon them, we could say that Jews are different from Poles because apples are different oranges. Even though both are fruit and grow in groves.

I am also sure there were probably a good number of jews who made a successful transition from jew to Pole and mixed into the general population. And no doubt, if you do genetic testing you will find jewish blood among the Poles, and polish blood within the Israeli population. I know this is true in my family for instance, because I have sister with genetic defect which is commonly known as a jewish disease in medicine, yet, my family are not jews. Most likely, many jews converted to Catholicism in Poland as well. There is absolutely no way, jewish or Polish marriage customs aside, that these two people lived side by side so many hundreds of years and kept their bloodlines entirely distinct from the other.

Which can also be said of any nation where jews resided. there is a lot of inter-marriage between people of semetic decent and people of european decent in the US as well. The only ones enforcing the idea of separatism are those who hang onto the idea that jews are a distinct race of people.. as in Israel. The Palestinians are another example.. though Israel denies them Israeli ctizenship, they are essentially the same people as the jews, they are the actually same race in that context, among them many people who simply left the 'tribe' many years ago.

Which in reality leaves us only in the position of saying.. you are a jew if you decide to call yourself a jew. A Pole if you decide to call yourself a Pole.. A Russian, a German etc. because all of these nations had large intermingling jewish and germanic/slavic populations.

But none of this allows us to escape the fact that certain of the jewish population follow what is known as the Oral law, the Talmud and it's counterparts, making a wide distinction between themselves and the 'goyim', the non-jewish people of the nations. It is widely agreed that some of Luther's writings did in fact even inspire Adolf Hitler. Those writings, are ravings from Luther concerning the Talmud. Luther was German and thus also, it's not hard to imagine that the German's would give serious thought to his writings.

On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
by Martin Luther (1483-1546)

humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

I would say, yes, this writing probably led to much anti-semitism amnog the Germans.

However, rarely is the Talmud (or Cabala) examined for it's racism, of which Luther wrote. And quite possibly, Hitler convinced himself that Jews were Poles and Poles were Jews also, even though Israel does not accept that as a basis for allowing Poles to claim Israeli citizenship.
Harry  
22 Oct 2009 /  #49
Jews do not consider Poles to be Jews

What utter rubbish! A Jew is a Jew, regardless of nationality! You might as well claim that Jews do not consider Americans to be Jews.
cheehaw 2 | 263  
22 Oct 2009 /  #50
not a problem. Jews do not consider Americans to be Jews.

in your own words, is that utter rubbish?

A person cannot claim Israeli citizenship simply because they are an american.

You are using a double standard here which delegates rights to jews that are not given by jews to others and you are defending the double standard.

Only Jewish Americans are Jews. And only Polish Jews are Jews. So Jews are Polish according to you, but Polish and other Americans are not Jews according to the law of return in Israel.

that, my friend is also utter rubbish as a perspective.

It logically can only follow that jews are not Poles. and neither are americans, jews.

hello.

Perhaps you are trying to voice some sort of opinion which would make it possible for jews to return to Poland and claim land rights via the EU?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
22 Oct 2009 /  #51
however perhaps it is worthwhile noting that though Jews may be Poles via immigration, Jews do not consider Poles to be Jews, eg; Poles are not granted jewish citizenship in Israel.

A person cannot claim Israeli citizenship simply because they are an american.

Just for your information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizens

And then especially this phrase:

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship through naturalization. To be eligible for naturalization, a person must have resided in Israel for three years out of the previous five years. In addition, the applicant must have a right to reside in Israel on a permanent basis. All naturalization requests are, however, at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior.

So if you're American or Polish and you have lived in Israël for a sufficient amount of time, you can become an Israeli citizen. Again you talk nonsense. If these are the results of your investigations, I suggest you better start baking a real good cake or make a casserole.

Edit: oh dear, you are trying hard to make the Jews look bad again and again it's easily rebuked...What did the doctor say to you about saying bad things about the Jews? Exactly. Now, don't do it again.

>^..^<

M-G (tsk, it was just widely available on Wiki again)
cheehaw 2 | 263  
22 Oct 2009 /  #52
Your comprehension is not good MG. Please read the page you linked to carefully.

Wherein it plainly states

The Law of Return defines that all Jews possessing an Oleh's certificate shall become Israel nationals and allowed to immigrate to Israel. Such a certificate would almost automatically turn into Israeli citizenship upon arrival in Israel if so desired. In the 1970s the Law of Return was further expanded, and it was defined that the spouse of a Jew, the children of a Jew and their spouses, and the grandchildren of a Jew and their spouses would also be covered under the Law of Return and thus be eligible for an Oleh's certificate provided that the Jew on behalf of whom they request the certificate did not practice a religion other than Judaism willingly (he or she may, however, be a non-observant Jew).

Edit: oh dear, you are trying hard to make the Poles look bad again and again it's easily rebuked...What did the doctor say to you about saying bad things about the Poles? Exactly. Now, don't do it again.

>`..`<
ooooh
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
23 Oct 2009 /  #53
The Law of Return

Exactly - the laws of return that is something completely different than not allowing non-Jews into the country.

Edit: the laws of return don't deny non-Jews into the country. It nowhere states that. It's just what you want to read as you don't like Jews and you are desperate to find anything bad about Jews.

I read the whole page and just for your information, you "forgot" to mention this:

Israeli legislators chose to make a clear distinction between the Law of Return, which allows for Jews and their descendants to immigrate to Israel, and between Israel's nationality law, which formally grants Israeli citizenship based on the Oleh's certificate. In other words, the Law of Return in and of itself does not determine Israeli citizenship; it merely allows for Jews and their eligible descendants to permanently relocate within the territory of Israel. The state of Israel does, however, grant citizenship to any applicant who immigrated to Israel via the Law of Return if the applicant so desires, though this is not mandated by the Law of Return itself

No matter how you turn or bend it, when a Pole wants to emigrate to Israël he can. This, btw has only effect on Jews, all other nationalities can get Israeli citizenship when they want to, but based on other laws.

Now go bake a cake, you're probably better at that, and don't say bad things about the Jews again.

>^..^<

M-G (again cheehaw was easily rebuked)
cheehaw 2 | 263  
23 Oct 2009 /  #54
you either have very low iq or are willfully deceitful.

I guess you should explain at this point why the palestinians and arabs, who previously lived in the israeli occupied territory, are not granted israeli citizenship with full and equal rights to the jews who immigrate from europe.

and why hundreds thousands more have been forced to lived in refugee camps or come to America.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
23 Oct 2009 /  #55
But my reading of that law is that it covers denying the holocaust, not questioning the numbers and 1jola said "we have laws enforcing the numbers of Jewish deaths imposed on us".

If you insist that 4 million Jews died at Auschwitz the thought police will leave you alone, but if your research yields 1 million, you will quickly fall under the Holocaust Denial Laws. So, much for the precision of Jewish victims. Both numbers have been used for Auschwitz, yet we must firmly believe 6 million Jews died overall. Let me quote you M-G again:

It's impossible to determine how many non-Jewish Poles were killed by whom, also to exactly determine how many deaths there were in total as it was such a mess, it will always remain estimates as far as the non-Jewish Poles are concerned.

Let me simplify your statement: we are sure 6 million Jews were murdered and we are certain some Poles died too, but we just don't know how many so let's not bother with unimportant details. Repeat after me, there is only the Jewish Holocaust.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
23 Oct 2009 /  #56
you either have very low iq or are willfully deceitful.

Sure. I still wonder how the hell I got that honoured Master's that I have and that Bachelors'. But that is not on trial here. You statement was that Poles are not allowed citizenship in Israël and in your mysterious ways you found this yet another way of critizing the Jews, whom you claim to love. Dr Strangelove comes to mind. Well, as I pointed out, they are allowed to acquire citizenship in Israël and to live as an Israeli. So your point has been proven as being not correct. And of course by doing this I have a low IQ and am willfully deceitful. Of course. This statement is just a confirmation that I am right :)

And the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government is a different topic of discussion and I most pertinently don't agree to the way they are handling things, but don't divert the topic pls. And as a matter of fact: why do you think Israël participates in the Eurosongfestival and the European football leagues while it's an Asian country? One of the reasons is that the Arab states surrounding them are not allowing them to participate in their competitions. So, I guess the same goes for the Arab-Israeli citizenships.

>^..^<

M-G (now go bake a cake)
sjam 2 | 541  
23 Oct 2009 /  #57
If you insist that 4 million Jews died at Auschwitz the thought police will leave you alone, but if your research yields 1 million, you will quickly fall under the Holocaust Denial Laws.

How many Poles have been arrested or fallen under Polish Holocaust Denial Laws for claiming less than 4 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
23 Oct 2009 /  #58
At least 15 million and it's an outrage :)

>^..^<

M-G (sorry, couldn't help it)
1jola 14 | 1,879  
23 Oct 2009 /  #59
Any historical event that requires law to enforce it, smacks of fraud. We can see that clearly in Russia today.

How many Poles have been arrested or fallen under Polish Holocaust Denial Laws for claiming less than 4 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust?

You are avoiding the issue. How is it that Polish deaths are an unccountable estimate, but Jewish deaths are countable? And why do you need a law to enforce only the Jewish tragedy? Are Jews special in some way?

You also forgot to site the source of your pogrom list. You may do so now.
Harry  
23 Oct 2009 /  #60
If you insist that 4 million Jews died at Auschwitz the thought police will leave you alone, but if your research yields 1 million, you will quickly fall under the Holocaust Denial Laws.

I would suggest you make an urgent phone call to the Auschwitz museum: they say the death-toll was 1.1 million and Jews made up less than a million of that!

Both numbers have been used for Auschwitz

If you want to place any reliance at all in the figures provided by the Commies, well, that's your problem!

How is it that Polish deaths are an unccountable estimate, but Jewish deaths are countable? And why do you need a law to enforce only the Jewish tragedy?

Polish deaths are countable but a lot less research has been done into the subject. Hopefully a lot more reseach will be done now that it can be done but I think my hopes may well be dashed.

Are Jews special in some way?

Yes: they haven't got foreskins. Which is very much their loss: foreskins are very useful.

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