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Poland and Ukraine


Ironside 50 | 10,989  
2 May 2009 /  #1
Listen, Ironside. I know you are not good at all in history and I can feel in logic, but if you explain your thoughts at above-mentioned quotations with what you say about Ukraine and Ukrainians as nation as compared to French and Burgundians and Germans and Saxonians, I will appologize for saying that you lack logic, Ok? And if you avoid that, then what I felt will just be true. I will accept an answer of no-existence of all 3 mentioned nations before 1812 (as was your statement in previous #).

Im saying that all connections that you claim to be between modern day ukrainians and cossacks from the past is not as important and significant as you think.

I think that there is no continuity between 17th century cossacks and 19th century ukrainians. The fact is ukrainians are one of the youngest nations in Europe - nothing wrong with it.

You had no litertaure, no elite, no dynasty or territory you could claim as your own no before 1848 anyway - take or leave a few years.

There never existed an independent ukrainian state before 1990, so what are we talking about?
The religion used by Moscow to rule over you, or language considered to be dialect even by yourselfs before 1848.

When a grup of the educated poeple which felt themselfs to be different - no Poles and no Russians but Ukrainians - they started looking for roots and naturaly tended to view past in the light of the existence of the ukrainian nation. Assigning motivations to the facts which could be explained qiute differently.

Well, differences beween Poles and Ukrainians were there in the first place but no greater then between Saxsonians and Bavarians for example.
If history would have taken other track those differences may have seen as those between Poles and mazowians.
Predestination is a concept I dont belive in!
There is no general rule by which one can explaine everything, to talk about France and talk about Germany is a different kettle of fish.

As for Germans they had a few coutrys very much unlike Ukraine, they had elite and language common for educated people although languages used in particural germanic states were different.

Germans belived to be a family but it could be said about Poles and Ukrainians.Decisive factor in creation of the single german nation and state was a war.

As you know one of those states conquered most of the remaining states.
Do you understand my postion, now, Nathan?
McCoy 27 | 1,269  
2 May 2009 /  #2
Listen, Ironside. I know you are not good at all in history and I can feel in logic

man, you have to accept yourself.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,989  
2 May 2009 /  #3
Whats your point?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443  
2 May 2009 /  #4
well, you have a problem with interpreting history, so it fits your way of thinking, which is obvious to some;)
OP Ironside 50 | 10,989  
2 May 2009 /  #5
If Im wrong - tell me why
If not - whats your point?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443  
2 May 2009 /  #6
If Im wrong - tell me why

Sorry, I didn't notice that it was addressed to Nathan:), wasn't it?
OP Ironside 50 | 10,989  
2 May 2009 /  #7
In a sense, but everyone view is welcome
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
2 May 2009 /  #8
Do you understand my postion, now, Nathan?

Yes, I understand your position - you stay on all four and suck like there is no tomorrow ;) But it is Ok. I am not going to write a book here because books are written for people willing to learn and grow intellectually, not for arrogant scum that knows only one's dick and looks for the way to suck it. There is so much BS in what you said that I find only the last sentence worth of quoting.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,989  
2 May 2009 /  #9
Well, Nathan you cannot insult me.
You are not able to provide - arguments - only insults, so be it.
I was hoping for interesting exchange but you have nothing to suport your view just yours belives and myths.
Which one have to swallow whole or there is nothing left.

Such chauvinistic moran like yourself are simply disgrace for the Ukrainians and their country, country you know nothing about.
I hve a news for you boyo - 1930s are over, get a life!
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
2 May 2009 /  #10
Well, Nathan you cannot insult me.

Ignorance can't be insulted.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,989  
2 May 2009 /  #11
Yet another insult, you'll never learn will you?
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544  
3 May 2009 /  #12
Well, since Poles can look for their roots in the Polan tribe, I don't see why Ukrainians could do the same in Cossacks, or even earlier in Kievan Rus.

However, I do see selectivity in regards to who they see as fit for being their predecessors. Yaroslav I the Wise and his nobles, certainly, but Ruthenian nobles in times of Rzeczpopsolita, no certainly not. That would, God forbid, mean that their forefathers also had something to do with the fate of Cossacs and Ukrainian peasants.

After all, what would an Ukrainian be without his Polish Pan. ;)

Well, since Poles can look for their roots in the Polan tribe, I don't see why Ukrainians could do the same in Cossacks, or even earlier in Kievan Rus.

It shoueld have read:

Well, since Poles can look for their roots in the Polan tribe, I don't see why Ukrainians couldn't do the same with Cossacks, or even earlier with Kievan Rus.
southern 75 | 7,096  
3 May 2009 /  #13
After all, what would an Ukrainian be without his Polish Pan. ;)

Ha,ha.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
3 May 2009 /  #14
That would, God forbid, mean that their forefathers also had something to do with the fate of Cossacs and Ukrainian peasants.

What did you mean by that, Einstein?

As I said ignorance cannot be insulted. Sticks will keep on selling BS on this forum about their superiority over Brits, Ukrainians, Germans etc. Spilling some garbage about some Slavia insanity. Who wants to be even close to that retarded companionship? Who wants it? Personally I would deal with anyone in the world, but you. You see - you are so scared of being inferior that you end up licking others' soles - US, Germany, Russian etc. But why do you spill your retarded anger in childish statements like these. Ironside wasn't able even to check dates like 1990 and 1848 which are wrong at best. Read your verbal diarrhea and tell me that you believe in it.

Ha,ha.

Exactly.
Salomon 2 | 436  
3 May 2009 /  #15
Name Ukraine was invented by Poles. U - kraja (border), I have heard that Ukrainians are stealing whole Polish companies who invested there ... they simple come and tell that this factory should be their - as to me nothing changed there.

Honestly saying Poland is the last country in Europe who supports them and in my opinion they are not able for selfgovern - lets see how they are going to govern their country without support of Polish pan's they hate so much.

I prefere Russians and our in some cases tense contacts with them are caused by Polish support for Ukrainians. Lets forget about them and talk straight to Russians because they are nation with common sense.

Crimeria is Russian - nobody considers themselves as Ukrainian there. In case of integration with NATO there will be rebel. Makeing form them Ukrianians is like makeing from east Germans - sparate Slavic nation - racist non sens.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
3 May 2009 /  #16
Russia was invented by Peter, but who cares? Support? Give me a break. You support your interests and nothing else. Go ahead and do business with Russians. Who keeps you? Crimeria - what a fcuk is it? Cream factory you wanted to say, hm? Selfgovern? Ha -ha cool kacapok, keep on! ;)
Salomon 2 | 436  
3 May 2009 /  #17
You support your interests and nothing else.

I have some doubts if Ukraine in shape you show us is in Polish interest... :)
southern 75 | 7,096  
3 May 2009 /  #18
Ukrainians are stealing whole Polish companies who invested there

Not only polish.But they are cool.
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
3 May 2009 /  #19
After all, what would an Ukrainian be without his Polish Pan. ;)

Well, the Polish had Russian cookers, why shouldn't the Ukrainians have Polish pans?

Russia was invented by Peter

So would a Russian pan be a Peter Pan?
Salomon 2 | 436  
3 May 2009 /  #20
But they are cool.

But they need 20 years to create modern society structures. Now they are just group of people called Ukrainians.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
3 May 2009 /  #21
Well, the Polish had Russian cookers, why shouldn't the Ukrainians have Polish pans?

;)0 Good one!

Intellectual polish superiority explain only one thing to me, please:
"The Cossack Hetmanate began in 1649 as a result of the Khmelnytsky Uprising and lasted until 1775 when it was taken over and dissolved and taken over by the Russian Empire. The Hetmanate had a very high literacy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_literature

"The Poles suppressed the Ukrainian educational system, reducing the number of Ukrainian-language schools from 440 to 8. Higher education became unattainable for Ukrainians in Poland. In the middle schools in Volhynia only 344 (14%) Ukrainians were enrolled in comparison to 2599 Poles (1938)."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland

You had no litertaure, no elite, no dynasty or territory you could claim as your own no before 1848 anyway - take or leave a few years.

I was hoping for interesting exchange but you have nothing to suport your view just yours belives and myths.

Please, don't repeat BS again. Thank you.
Salomon 2 | 436  
3 May 2009 /  #22
Nathan

So why do you suppres so strongly Russians in eastern part of Ukriane and try to Ukrainize them ? Give them freedom of choice. Why you force them to speak Ukrianian if they prefere to be Russian and to speak Russian ? :)
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
3 May 2009 /  #23
Give me an example where exactly they are suppressed. Facts, please and links, but not to ru.com if you can.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,989  
3 May 2009 /  #24
HM

Talking to this Nathan character is pointless.
I dont really care what he want to feel connection to cossacks, Russians or martians but one issue should be clear that territory which belonged to Poland before the war should belong to Poland!
Salomon 2 | 436  
3 May 2009 /  #25
Give me an example where exactly they are suppressed. Facts, please and links, but not to ru.com if you can.

Russian

Percentage of people who prefer to use Russian according to 2003 survey by KIIS (in macroregions).

This people are strongly pro - Russian and don't want to see Ukriane in western structures. In case of Ukrainians membership in NATO there is going to be home war.

In my opinion Russians are absolutely right when they cliam that Ukraine is too nationalistic country.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,989  
3 May 2009 /  #26
Its what I was hoping for ... but after so many insults....and your hatred and chav attitude I don care...maybe if you say sorry ....but somehow I doubt that lol
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
3 May 2009 /  #27
In my opinion Russians are absolutely right when they cliam that Ukraine is too nationalistic country.

Yes, especially russians can say that after murdering millions of people, nations and cultures. Of course, we are.

They better watch out :)

In case of Ukrainians membership in NATO there is going to be home war.

Nobody is planning to go into NATO, just stupid politicians trying to stir the population and wake up no-dead yet older generation.

Russian language population received 12 times less state funds then the tiny Romanian-speaking population in 2005-2006.

Romanians constitute 1% of population of Ukraine as of 1989 and they received 12 times more funding than Russian schools? ;) I wish it was true.
Salomon 2 | 436  
4 May 2009 /  #28
Nobody is planning to go into NATO

good.

Yes, especially russians can say that after murdering millions of people, nations and cultures. Of course, we are.

So now you are going to give the choice for people living in eastern Ukraine - die or be Ukrainian ?

It seems that people you claim to be first Ukrainians (the Cossacks inhabited eastern Ukraine) don't want to be Ukrainian ... so where does your history start ?
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
4 May 2009 /  #29
Salomon, you seem to know what people think. But Ukrainians in Eastern as well as Western Ukraine will eat your coronoid artery off if they hear your baseless blah-blah theories. For your own safety, work on your Russian background and enjoy fresh air of Siberian forests. Good luck.
Salomon 2 | 436  
4 May 2009 /  #30
You come here and talk about the Cossacks ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks

The term Cossacks (Ukrainian: Козаки́, Kozaki; Russian: Каза́ки́, Kazaki; Polish: Kozacy) is applied to specific militaristic communities of various ethnicities living in the steppe regions of Ukraine and also southern Russia.

It seems that they prefere to be Russian than Ukrianian so how can you talk about Polish - Ukrianian wars when this people don't want to be Ukrainian it is not your history. It is history of people who prefere to be Russians ... and they are suppresed by your nationalistic state.

Here is your history : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

from late spring 1944, the UPA and OUN-B - faced with Soviet advances - also cooperated with the German Wehrmacht and Waffen SS, SiPo and SD against the Soviets and Poles. The army played a substantial role in the killing and ethnic cleansing of much of Western Ukraine's Polish population.

Outside of Western Ukraine, support was minimal, and the majority of the Soviet (eastern) Ukrainian population considered the OUN/UPA to have been primarily collaborators with the Germans.


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