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Poland and Ukraine


OP Ironside 53 | 12,422  
6 May 2009 /  #91
Whats the point ? You will say NO the Ukraine was there always even in Babylon 1200BC there was an ukrainian king Nathanbuzor!
Or you will start you too, you too..... check your own family for war criminals first!
You understand nothing so all that is pointless!
Thats all no more from me.
pawian 224 | 24,479  
6 May 2009 /  #92
but one issue should be clear that territory which belonged to Poland before the war should belong to Poland!

And naturally, new acquisitions in the West at the cost of Germany should be kept by Poland as well.

We deserve it because we are just Great.

:)
Nathan 18 | 1,349  
6 May 2009 /  #93
Pity that this is it, but why you spit in the neighbor's backyard and expect me to sit still and listen to your stories? I say Ukraine has its roots in Kijivska Rus' - how difficult it is for you to understand? You seem a bit out of yourself. I am not imagining things. Simple facts. Criminals are on both sides of the border, crimes were commited by both, so I consider we have to move on and have a nice halbu of beer somewhere in Lviv or Gdansk sometime and talk like friends and not like enemies. Sorry, I called you eel, it was a little metaphore, don't be offended and I take it back. Anyway, have a nice day, Ironside.
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 May 2009 /  #94
Ukraine should pay compensations for Poland as Germans paid for Israel. Ethnic cleansing made by Ukrainian SS wasn't solved form legal point of view as it was in other European cases. No body is talking about changing borders. As long as this issue isn't solved Ukraine should be blocked by Poland and opinion about Ukraine in Poland is changing very quickly ...

I have been listening to German debate and Erica Steinbach pointed out how Germans lost legal rights for properties lost in Poland. We are in much better situation and I would use Steinbach plan for getting back what German ally has stolen.

Modern Ukraine:

The same can be said of Poland - many war criminals live in your country or moved to England, France or to the very Canada. They are unpunished as well and you keep learning from them history - be careful.

Examples!
Nathan 18 | 1,349  
6 May 2009 /  #95
RT - Russian Television, well, 100% Pole...Salamon Salamonovich
OP Ironside 53 | 12,422  
6 May 2009 /  #96
And naturally, new acquisitions in the West at the cost of Germany should be kept by Poland as well.

You are confused as many people in Poland - What has to do with western border, do you thing that Germans will pity us and will not take back if oportunity arise?

This little map of yours you can ....... is incorrect as I was talking borders from 1939.
Anyways I was talking about terrtories which belong to the Ukraine now.
Nathan 18 | 1,349  
6 May 2009 /  #97
Ironside, a little info for you, because I know you love history:
The Kingdom of Galicia-Volhynia (Ruthenian: Галицко-Волинскоє Королѣвство, Latin: Regnum Galiciæ et Lodomeriæ), or Galicia-Vladimir, was a principality in post-Kievan Rus in the late 12th century and existed until the middle of the 14th century. It is also called Galicia-Volynia, Halych-Volhynia, Galicia-Volyn, and Galich-Volyn.

Western Galicia-Volhynia extended between the rivers San and Wieprz in what is now south-eastern Poland, while eastern territories covered the Pripet Marshes (now in Belarus) and upper Southern Bug in modern-day Ukraine. During its time, the kingdom was bordered by Black Ruthenia, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the Principality of Turov-Pinsk, the Principality of Kiev, the Golden Horde, the Kingdom of Hungary, the Kingdom of Poland, the Principality of Moldova and the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights.

Along with Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal, it was one of the three most important East Slavic powers to emerge from the collapse of the Kievan Rus'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia-Volhynia

It is interesting how you choose the time 1939. Now let's German choose time and then Ukrainians choose time and then French will choose their time because it is convenient to them. What if France picks up France in 1812? Where is Poland? Nowhere. So stop it because picking times is nonsense and I know you know it.

And also I am not sure about that Black Ruthenia. Where was it? And who lived there? You know? I am not sure.
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 May 2009 /  #98
RT - Russian Television, well, 100% Pole...Salamon Salamonovich

In which point do they lie ?
Ilativ - | 10  
6 May 2009 /  #99
Ukraine should pay comensations for Poland as Germans paid for Israel.
**********************************************************

Poles were saints in relation whit to the Ukrainians? Thid Poles
not destroyed Ukrainian Village Ukrainian church was not burn?
In those days the no saints were not among Ukrainians not in The Poles!

youtube.com/watch?v=Kh7hT6p7Ks8
youtube.com/watch?v=auLnflERLT4
pawian 224 | 24,479  
6 May 2009 /  #100
Honestly saying Poland is the last country in Europe who supports them and in my opinion they are not able for selfgovern - lets see how they are going to govern their country without support of Polish pan's they hate so much.

First of all, half Ukraine (eastern part) was under communist rule from 1921 to 1991. They suffered gigantic human losses at communists` hands, especially during Great Famine years, counted in millions.

Poland was in communist yoke from 1945 to 1989 and we still haven`t overcome communist habits and culture, there is still chaos and mess, especially in politics. Look at what is happening now in the Sejm.

What do you expect from Ukrainians, then?

Secondly, if they can`t govern themselves, it means that Polish pany didn`t teach them that. The only thing Ukrainians were expected by Poles was to labour in the fields, not to participate in governments.

I dont really care what he want to feel connection to cossacks, Russians or martians but one issue should be clear that territory which belonged to Poland before the war should belong to Poland!

For what reason should they belong to Poland?

Look honestly at Polish achievements in Ukraine - what are they? Pure exploitation of peasants, that`s all. And don`t tell me about Lvov because it was a multicultural and multiethnic city - there were many minorities which contributed to its greatness. Poles did too but they weren`t alone.

OK, even if you persist in taking Lvov as an example of Polish great work in the East, what else? Nothing. Look at Germans and what they did in their partition zone which is in Poland today - they built and developed infrastructure, railways, roads, facilities, cities, which stand till today and are used by Poles in 21 century.

What infrastructure did Poles build in Ukraine? The truth is sad, I know, and it hurts but it is just truth - nothing.

I prefere Russians and our in some cases tense contacts with them are caused by Polish support for Ukrainians. Lets forget about them and talk straight to Russians because they are nation with common sense.

In my opinion alliance with Soviets in 1939 would be much better for Poland than allinace with UK and France who couldn't help Poland on time.

Sasha or Constantine, or another Russian in disguise, stop this propaganda, OK? :):):):):) Ukraine is our strategic partner and despite a few Poles` blindness and anger over the past, it will stay such. :):):) Luckily, Polish elites from left to right have been unanimous on this since 1991. Poland was the first country which acknowledged the independent Ukrainian state.

Ukraine should pay compensations for Poland as Germans paid for Israel. As long as this issue isn't solved Ukraine should be blocked by Poland

Fortunately, you are not and won`t be in the Polish government. :)

pawian:
And naturally, new acquisitions in the West at the cost of Germany should be kept by Poland as well.

You are confused as many people in Poland - What has to do with western border,
do you thing that Germans will pity us and will not take back if oportunity arise?

Hey, man, what are you talking about? Are you talking about war with Germany??? :):):)
Please, be reasonable.

This little map of yours you can ....... is incorrect as I was talking borders from 1939. Anyways I was talking about terrtories which belong to the Ukraine now.

But why do you limit your demands to Ukraine only? Why not take all lands which once were under Polish Lithuanian rule? Especially those in today`s Russia, and the Baltics and Belarus. And keep the ex-German lands too? Don`t you think it would be great to have Great Poland?

:):):):)

And I provided such a map because there aren`t any other available. Luckily ... :):):) it means most Poles are fairly reasonable and they realise that Ukraine seperates us from Russia which has always been an imperial state with a tendency to spread its borders and influence. Russian average people are great, I love them, but Russian elites have never stopped their desire to revive the old empire, once tsarist, later Soviet. Today it is oligarchic crippled empire but the Russian dream of greatness is still lively.

The moment Russia incorporates Ukraine it will become a fully imperial state again, with tragic consequences for herself and her neighbours, including Poland.
That is why Ukraine must remain independent, it is a Polish strategic interest. Poles should do everything to help Ukrainians. Anybody who doesn`t understand it is a political baby. :):):):)

PS. Ironside, last question. You are not Polish, are you? :):):)
Nathan 18 | 1,349  
6 May 2009 /  #101
pawian

Pawian, I agree on all that you said. I am very glad that pure reasoning and understanding without childish pretense are in your words. Poland and Ukraine will be able to reach so much if there are more people like you. Also

Polish elites from left to right have been unanimous on this since 1991. Poland was the first country which acknowledged the independent Ukrainian state.

is very appreciated by Ukrainians. Thanks.
Torq  
6 May 2009 /  #102
Map

I like your map Pawian, but we could use a border with Hungary you know.

Also - why did you leave Województwo £otewskie and Hospodarstwo Mołdawskie
outside our borders??? It's scandalous, mate.

Oh, yeah - and you forgot to incorporate Chociebuż (which Germans call Cottbus).
It's a Polish city so should be in Poland. As a matter of a fact all German lands
east of £aba (Elbe) should be Polish (ask Crow!).

P.S. I won't even mention all the Ukrainian vojvodships, which on your map
are marked with dark yellow and not green colour for some reason.

LOL
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 May 2009 /  #103
Look honestly at Polish achievements in Ukraine - what are they? What infrastructure did Poles build in Ukraine? The truth is sad, I know, and it hurts but it is just truth - nothing.

It was Austrain partition zone (the poorest one). Secondly after 1918 (partition) Poles have started to industralize this arena.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Industrial_Region_(Poland)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Industrial_Region_(Poland)

The 5-year long project was initiated by a famous Polish economist, deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Treasury, Eugeniusz Kwiatkowski. Its goal was to create a heavy industrial center in the middle of the country, as far as possible from any borders, strengthen the Polish economy and reduce unemployment. The four-year plan for the development of COP was scheduled from 1 September 1936 until 30 July 1940 and was interrupted by the outbreak of the Second World War and the German invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939. Nonetheless, the COP project succeeded in vastly expanding Polish industry

Secondly, if they can`t govern themselves, it means that Polish pany didn`t teach them that. The only thing Ukrainians were expected by Poles was to labour in the fields, not to participate in governments.

After 1918 there was no nobility and slave laubor was forbiden. In 17 century Polish peasants had the same life las Ukrainian one ...

Nothing. Look at Germans and what they did in their partition zone which is in Poland today - they built and developed infrastructure, railways, roads, facilities, cities, which stand till today and are used by Poles in 21 century.

It was the Poles. Greater Poland always was one of the richest regions in Poland.

What is more : Gdynia has been build by Poles as well as railways ect.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdynia

The decision to build a major seaport at the Gdynia village was made by the Polish government in the winter of 1920, in the midst of the Polish-Soviet War (1919-1920). Poland realized the need for a port city it was in complete control of, economically and politically.

What is more I see that you don't know history of Western Poland and use harmful stereotypes..

Sasha or Constantine, or another Russian in disguise, stop this propaganda, OK? :):):):):) Ukraine is our strategic partner and despite a few Poles` blindness and anger over the past, it will stay such. :):):)

LOL :) It is not Russian propaganda, more and more people see the truth face of this county. I am not talking about invading them but they shouldn't receive anny support form Poland as long as thy haven't payed compensations.

Don`t you think it would be great to have Great Poland? :):):):)

Are you German agent ? LOL :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland_Uprising_(1918-1919)

The Greater Poland Uprising of 1918-1919, or Wielkopolska Uprising of 1918-1919 (Polish: powstanie wielkopolskie 1918-19 roku; German: Großpolnischer Aufstand) or Posnanian War was a military insurrection of Poles in the Greater Poland region (also called the Grand Duchy of Poznań or Provinz Posen region) against Germany. The uprising had a significant effect on the Treaty of Versailles, which granted reconstituted Poland the area won by the Polish insurgents plus some additional territory, at the cost of the territories of Germany

Ukraine is our strategic partner and despite a few Poles` blindness and anger over the past, it will stay such. :):):) Luckily, Polish elites from left to right have been unanimous on this since 1991. Poland was the first country which acknowledged the independent Ukrainian state.

Ukraine is neo - nazi country oppressing half of its citiens. Gloryfing people who murdered Poles... It is going to be worst Polish enemy. I am not talking about changing the borders but simple we shouldn't care much about them.
Ilativ - | 10  
6 May 2009 /  #104
Ukraine is neo - nazi country oppressing half of its citiens. Gloryfing people who murdered Poles... It is going to be worst Polish enemy. I am not talking about changing the borders but simple we shouldn't care much about them.

nonsense!!!
in Ukrainian society and the Ukraine elite is no any anti-Polish movement!
So why its be worst Polish enemy?
I my self half Polish half Ukrainian! there no problems between Poles and Ukrainians!
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,437  
6 May 2009 /  #105
there no problems between Poles and Ukrainians!

on PF there is, in real life it is a totally different story:)
Torq  
6 May 2009 /  #106
there no problems between Poles and Ukrainians!

I'm happy to hear that, mate. Let's hope it stays that way in the future.
Salomon 2 | 436  
6 May 2009 /  #107
I my self half Polish half Ukrainian! there no problems between Poles and Ukrainians!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
Ilativ - | 10  
6 May 2009 /  #108
on PF there is, in real life it is a totally different story:)

What is PF??
in Real life in Poland dominant view like Giedroyc view! and this is good!

I understand the indignation Poles in issue of UPA!

I also understand why the Ukrainian people were in the UPA, and fought against the "soviets"
Like I said There also Kilings Ukrainians civilins by Polish AK and other military organizations!
These were dark times for the Poles and Ukrainians!

But now I do not meet any hostility towards each other in REAL LIFE! not on internet forums! in this there supid people from each side!

I suggest watch the film by Jerzy Hoffman about Ukrainian history and not make mistakes that were made in the past
OP Ironside 53 | 12,422  
6 May 2009 /  #110
Secondly, if they can`t govern themselves, it means that Polish pany didn`t teach them that. The only thing Ukrainians were expected by Poles was to labour in the fields, not to participate in governments.

Where did you find this rubbish? In the UPA booklets "Why Poles are our enemy" or NKVD leaflet "kill pany"?

For what reason should they belong to Poland?

Because it was part of the Crown and border issue wasn't settlet between Ukraine and Poland but by the arbitrary decision of the one man, Stalin.

Look honestly at Polish achievements in Ukraine - what are they? Pure exploitation of peasants, that`s all. And don`t tell me about Lvov because it was a multicultural and multiethnic city - there were many minorities which contributed to its greatness. Poles did too but they weren`t alone.

What kind of psychobubble is that ?
I can see that you are deeply confused man pawian.
First of all what ukraine, then were and when, and last whats your point.

OK, even if you persist in taking Lvov as an example of Polish great work in the East, what else? Nothing. Look at Germans and what they did in their partition zone which is in Poland today - they built and developed infrastructure, railways, roads, facilities, cities, which stand till today and are used by Poles in 21 century.

I can see you are very deep thinker but surely you cannot expect simple mind like myself to understand would care to explain.
You compare Germans and 120years of their rule mainly in the XIX century and 20 years of polish rule in the eastern malopolska.

Hey, man, what are you talking about? Are you talking about war with Germany??? :):):)

Well, why not, Poland could surrender after 1 hour and then Germany could build and develop infrastructure in Poland.)0)
What war all Im saying is that Germans want their land back and because as you put it nicely they bulit .......and so on, )Im sure they also printed books you were reading about useless and lazy Poles.

But why do you limit your demands to Ukraine only? Why not take all lands which once were under Polish Lithuanian rule? Especially those in today`s Russia, and the Baltics and Belarus. And keep the ex-German lands too? Don`t you think it would be great to have Great Poland?

Because we are talking about prewar borders and because contrary to some I recognise existance of the ukrainian nation and polish rights do not extand to all the terrytory of the present ukrainian state.

And I provided such a map because there aren`t any other available. Luckily ... :):):) it means most Poles are fairly reasonable and they realise that Ukraine seperates us from Russia which has always been an imperial state with a tendency to spread its borders and influence. Russian average people are great, I love them, but Russian elites have never stopped their desire to revive the old empire, once tsarist, later Soviet. Today it is oligarchic crippled empire but the Russian dream of greatness is still lively.

Blah ablah .............
Do I propose to destroy Ukraine?NO!

That is why Ukraine must remain independent, it is a Polish strategic interest. Poles should do everything to help Ukrainians. Anybody who doesn`t understand it is a political baby. :):):):)

Better to be political baby then old fool.
It's all about interest, so Poles should look after their interest and Ukrainian after theirs and if they want polish assistens they should courting us.

Right now, there is some who want to be part of Russia, some who don't care and some who want independent country - let them sort it out by themselfs!

PS. Ironside, last question. You are not Polish, are you? :):):)

Are you ? After your last post I have my doubts !

Like I said There also Kilings Ukrainians civilins by Polish AK and other military organizations!

Well, what do you know...define civilian!
Do you know that:

youtube.com/watch?v=enVnQgCx5FY

Were are you from?
Nathan 18 | 1,349  
11 May 2009 /  #111
Well, what do you know...define civilian!

Well, define babies and women...
OP Ironside 53 | 12,422  
11 May 2009 /  #112
Civilian is noncombatant in most basic meaning someone not carrying a weapon.
Why I'm not surprised that you don't know....
Nathan 18 | 1,349  
12 May 2009 /  #113
Civilian is noncombatant in most basic meaning someone not carrying a weapon

That's the reason you ask to define this word. I know what it means and Ilativ as well.
isthatu2 4 | 2,694  
12 May 2009 /  #114
Ukraine should pay comensations for Poland as Germans paid for Israel.

So,how much is a life worth then,in Dollars say? Some people dont put $ signs on human life or try to profit from historical misery unlike some others do....

Civilian is noncombatant in most basic meaning someone not carrying a weapon.

Nope,a spy or informer may not carry a weapon but still be "legally" shot in wartime....

Lets face it,tit for tat about who was more beastly to who during the last war in that region is a pointless exercise.There were sick murderous f*ckers on all sides. Jews killing Poles,Poles killing Ukrainians,ukrainians killing Jews, and every f*cker taking a pop at the Roma...
Salomon 2 | 436  
12 May 2009 /  #115
So,how much is a life worth then,in Dollars say? Some people dont put $ signs on human life or try to profit from historical misery unlike some others do....

Ok lets not talk about humans but about properties.



Poland was on the right side durring WWII and I don't understand why some private properties changed the owners and now Lwów is whole in SS Galtizen posters as their heros...
Nathan 18 | 1,349  
12 May 2009 /  #116
Lviv was Ukrainian from the beginning when it was built by Ukrainian king Danylo Halickij for his son Lew (this is the reason the city was named like that) in 1256.

100 years later in 1349 it was occupied by Polish kingdom. During Khmelnickij city was recaptured for awhile and then lost till in 1772 Austro-Hungarian empire took it. Then Ukrainians took over in 1918, but Poland again occupied it till 1939. Since then it remains Ukrainian as it was at the beginning. I agree Opera and Ballet Theatre is magnificent. Come over and have fun, especially during upcoming 2012 soccer championship.
Salomon 2 | 436  
12 May 2009 /  #117
The problem is that Poles never expeled annybody from Lwów. There were some tensions before WWII but nobody lost annything.

Durring WWII Poland was on allies side...

What is more before WWII city was strongly Polish and what I want to repeat ... Ukrainians never were forced to lose properites there ...

It wasn't Poland who stared WWII.

Ukrainians simply allied with the Germans and cleaned this beautiful city form the Poles.

Lwów was part of different countries durring history but population when Poland was regaining independece was Polish.
pawian 224 | 24,479  
12 May 2009 /  #118
P.S. I won't even mention all the Ukrainian vojvodships, which on your map are marked with dark yellow and not green colour for some reason.

I know it has many shrotcomings, but as I said, it is the only map of that ****** kind available on the Net. :):):):)

It was Austrain partition zone (the poorest one). Secondly after 1918 (partition) Poles have started to industralize this arena.

First of all, during Austrian partition Poles in Galicia region had advanced autonomy. They governed such branches as economy, culture and education. Also, Poles took part in the main Austrian government, twice a Prime Minister was Polish.

The 5-year long project was initiated by a famous Polish economist, deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Treasury, Eugeniusz Kwiatkowski. Its goal was to create a heavy industrial center in the middle of the country, as far as possible from any borders, strengthen the Polish economy and reduce unemployment.

As for COP, it was never implemented in Eastern regions, so you are talking about plans, not reality.

After 1918 there was no nobility and slave laubor was forbiden.

No nobility?? So, who owned land in Galicia after 1918??

In 17 century Polish peasants had the same life las Ukrainian one ...

Yes. You suggest that Poles didn`t develop their own country, neither Ukraine.

Nothing. Look at Germans and what they did in their partition zone which is in Poland today - they built and developed infrastructure, railways, roads, facilities, cities, which stand till today and are used by Poles in 21 century.
It was the Poles. Greater Poland always was one of the richest regions in Poland.

It isn`t only about Wielkopolska. Look at the map of railway network in today`s Poland. Do you see the difference between the east and west?

f

It was even worse in Ukraine. Despite partitions, Poles controlled economy in Galicia all the time. Since 14 century when Lvov was incorporated into the Polish kingdom till 1939, when Nazis-Soviets dismembered Poland.

What is more I see that you don't know history of Western Poland and use harmful stereotypes..

Look at my stereotypes in the railway map. :):):):)

I am not talking about invading them but they shouldn't receive anny support form Poland as long as thy haven't payed compensations.

I would prefer to call it a draw. Both nations harmed each other in the past and it is time to settle all conflicts. What you propose, is provoking more conflicts between Poles and Ukrainians.

Let me ask, whose interest is it if Poles and Ukrainians are conflicted??? :):):):)

Are you German agent ? LOL :)

Even if I am an agent of a foreign power, I am Polish and I am talking about matters which are vital to Poland. What about you? :):):):)

Ukraine is neo - nazi country oppressing half of its citiens. Gloryfing people who murdered Poles... It is going to be worst Polish enemy.

I can see you are really losing your temper here. Man, calm down. :):):)

Brutal methods such as beheading, disembowelling, and killing with knives and axes were employed against Polish people. In addition to the UPA, Ukrainian peasants also participated in the violence, and large groups of armed "bandit" marauders, unafiliated with UPA, brutalized civilians. The estimates of the number of Poles murdered in Ukraine range from 100,000 (Edward Prus, 2006) to 500,000 (Norman Davies, 1996)

Hmm, maybe the brutality of Ukrainian UPA was a result of Ukrainians` good memory? Who massacred a few hundred (300) Ukrainian inhabitants of Lvov (together with 70 Jews) after the city was captured by Polish forces in 1918? As you gladly quote Norman Davies above, read an excerpt from his book "Ethnic Diversity in Twentieth Century Poland."

At the end of a long battle for the city, elements of victorious Polish soldiery went back into certain streets and massacred inhabitants. An estimated 340 innocent people were killed. About 2/3 of them were Ukrainians. The remaining 70 or so were Jews.

Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko joined several public Ukrainian organizations in calls for reconciliation, pensions, and other benefits for UPA veterans that would equate them in status with the veterans of the Soviet Army, and aid the understanding of their role in the chaotic times of UPA operations. In 2007, president Yushchenko awarded the title "Hero of Ukraine", the country's highest honour to UPA leader Roman Shukhevych.

Joining or calling isn`t the same as passing the law. Do you see the difference? Here, in Poland, various groups also call for sth, but does it mean that all Poles support it?
Salomon 2 | 436  
12 May 2009 /  #119
First of all, during Austrian partition Poles in Galicia region had advanced autonomy. They governed such branches as economy, culture and education. Also, Poles took part in the main Austrian government, twice a Prime Minister was Polish.

Bismarck and the "Polish Question."
Speech to the Lower House of the Prussian Parliament, January 28, 1886.
h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/speech.html

Read Bismark speach ... Poles dominated Prussian parlament and that is why Bismark dissolved it.

I love this part of his speach:

Finally, [there was] the peculiar capacity of Germans, not found among other nations, to not only get out of their own skin but to get into that of a foreigner (laughter) and completely to become, in a word, something like a Pole, Frenchman, or American. I remember from my childhood learning the most popular melodies in Berlin about the old Polish general:

Remember, my brave Lagienka; (laughter)
Ask no one of my destiny;
My Fatherland...


But that was not the German Fatherland, rather the Polish, that the Berlin organ grinders were lamenting. The appropriate twin of this was the interest in all things French. Who, of my age, has not heard with enthusiasm the recitation of, for example, "Bertrande's Farewell? Or the poetry of Baron von Gaudy or other glorifications of Napoleon I, who thoroughly mowed down the Germans, for which they demonstrated their gratitude in a way I may not describe with a zoological adjective.

It was even worse in Ukraine. Despite partitions, Poles controlled economy in Galicia all the time. Since 14 century when Lvov was incorporated into the Polish kingdom till 1939, when Nazis-Soviets dismembered Poland.

No body pushed annybody there, anny land has been confiscated, they sold land and Poles build city there...

It isn`t only about Wielkopolska. Look at the map of railway network in today`s Poland. Do you see the difference between the east and west?

I know that people form Lesser Poland has the custom to put themself down... that is why long before Germans and Russians ... somebody started to call "Greater Poland" Pozań region and Lesser Poland "Kraków region". What is more palaces in Greater Poland are also bigger than in Lesser Poland ...

What is more ... :

Trasa, Autostrada A2 Poznań



It is new ... it is not the Germans it is mr. Kulczyk and his company Autostrada Wielkopolska, what is more it has been build before Polish accession to EU.

What is more : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

Prussia's Germanisation policies in the Province of Posen mostly failed. Although most of the administrative measures aimed against the Poles remained in force until 1918, between 1912 and 1914 only four Polish-owned estates were expropriated, while at the same time Polish social organizations successfully competed with German trade organizations and even started to buy land from the Germans. The long-lasting effect of the Polish-German conflict in the area was development of a sense of Greater Polish identity, distinct from the identity common in other parts of Poland and primarily associated with nationalist ideas rather than socialism, prevailing in other parts of the country in the 20th century.

How to say it ... eastern Germans are were also weaker ... so it is not only story about Lesser Poland and Greater Poland.

I can see you are really losing your temper here. Man, calm down.

Stop puting yourself down. All Polish tribes have such nice names. Mazovians, Pomeranians, Podlesians, Silesians ect. and you have your name for a reason.


If we take Davies as reliable source 300 isnt like 500 000 people.

Secondly: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lwów_Eaglets

Lwów Eaglets (Polish: Orlęta Lwowskie) is a term of affection applied to the Polish child soldiers who defended the city of Lviv during the Polish-Ukrainian War (1918-1919).

Maybe after the battle this kids have done someting bad ...

Going back to infrastructue. Don't you think that enviroment means a lot. Most of Jews were living in eastern Poland some cities had Jewish majority. Białystoks population was in 60% Jewish. If you are looking for German/Jewish/Polish theories... I'd say that enviroment and mentality means a lot.
pawian 224 | 24,479  
12 May 2009 /  #120
Where did you find this rubbish? In the UPA booklets "Why Poles are our enemy" or NKVD leaflet "kill pany"?

I guessed it from your posts. :):):):):):)

pawian:
For what reason should they belong to Poland?

Because it was part of the Crown and border issue wasn't settlet between Ukraine and Poland but by the arbitrary decision of the one man, Stalin.

OK, when you die, go and meet Stalin and tell him off.
For the time being, leave the matters to be settled by Poles and Ukrainians and stop trying to revoke old conflicts between two nations.

BTW, the same Stalin gave Poland Western lands, in case you forgot.

What kind of psychobubble is that ?
I can see that you are deeply confused man pawian.

It is because I am in contact with you. :):):):):):)

You compare Germans and 120years of their rule mainly in the XIX century and 20 years of polish rule in the eastern malopolska.

Not 20 years but 600 years from 14 to 20 century.

Because we are talking about prewar borders and because contrary to some I recognise existance of the ukrainian nation and polish rights do not extand to all the terrytory of the present ukrainian state.

What Polish rights are you talking about?

Why do you interfere into Polish Ukrainian matters? It is none of your business. :):):)

Blah ablah .............

Thank you for this informative remark. :):):):)

Do I propose to destroy Ukraine?NO!

Thanks God. Keep the nukes in silos and let them rust there. :):):)

It's all about interest, so Poles should look after their interest and Ukrainian after theirs.

And here is where disagreement lies because I think the opposite. And fortunately Polish political elites share this opinion.

Right now, there is some who want to be part of Russia, some who don't care and some who want independent country - let them sort it out by themselfs!

Poland should support the independent ones, that`s obvious.

pawian: PS. Ironside, last question. You are not Polish, are you? :):):)

Are you ? After your last post I have my doubts !

Yes, I am. And let me see if you are. :):):) What Polish words were once used in the past to check the national identity of disguised guys and differentiate them from real Poles? Say these words now...... :):):):):):):)

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