Poland and Ukraine

I know what you asked and I refuse to answer your questions because next thing, you will say something senseless as above, I refuse to prove I'm not a camel to the blind guy who haven't seen one!


Well,thats your problem, today everyone can have an opinion !


You and your weed, a barmy old monkey, I speak in my name and I'm discussing any subject I chose if you don't like it - eat banana!

I cannot comply to someone who has no idea what free speech[b][/b] means)))


hahahahahhahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!
You and who else? wee apes?))))))))))))))
If - make a big difference!


I couldn't care less!


Well, you are entitled to your opinion.
I think that you are living example that mass education is not good idea as you have been given tool too complicated for your fable mind to use it properly.

Some goes for your views on discussed subject.


Is it a tongue you are using at home - polruss? Missing old good times?


I don't demand pawian to leave, I challenged him to a duel but he shrank from it.
He is an idiot and not the issue to be discussed.
We are talking and exchanging views on the Internet there no states no diplomacy, only individuals expressing theirs opinion.
Poland is not going to declaring war on the Ukraine because of my views.
We are not talking about real politics and practical aims to achieve some goal.

I'm speaking my mind if you find argument's to change it and you are willing to try, go ahead!If not I will keep my view on the subject!


I was pointing to you that in the 1919 there wasn't single Ukrainian nation but at last two claimant to this title. One wanted capital in Kiev and second wanted capital in Vienna.

As for defending terrytory if boths sides were doing just that - who was right?
both?

He is not Polish he is Ukrainian...


This program shows truth ... :)

Absence of diplomacy on the internet as you claim doesn't mean you have to call names. A couple of dialogues above you asked me to not do it. Wy are offending other people?


Somehow there was Western Ukrainian People's Republic with capital in Lviv and Ukrainian People's Republic in Kijiv which united in 1919, January 22 if I am correct. So again you are wrong about that. And before the unification they didn't fight among each other and had common enemies. So what is your question?

Still it interests me what it has to do with Poland and Ukraine topic.

Nat it's so pathetically to read your weepy notions about Polish people... I'm about to shed a tear. The more I read you the more I'm amazed with you fantastically hypocritical and self-contradictory statements. In one thread you label Russians "bydlo" and "scum" with no objective reason (actually there's a good reason... you're like a deprived child forsaken and lonely, with no nationality, gone astray, bearing no kind feelings in his heart, malicious and chauvinistic), now you venture to speak about "name-calling" and offending other people?! Do you realize what you're saying? Or this goes subconsciously?

Pawy, is it really that weird for Poles to own such view as Ironside or Salomon do? Too many Russians for one thread, don't you think so? I'm off... :)))

Listen, Sash. Yes, I used these words. We have an agreement with Ironside to stop using them. So...
I have no hatred or love towards Russians. If I had no nathionality as you claim (because, maybe, you lack one) I wouldn't be here. But I am here because I am not indifferent to the future of my country. I don't want my kids to live in horrors my grandparents, parents and I were living in. I want my country to be in Europe where knowledge, culture and human being is appreciated and respected. You may cry your ass off with your crocodile tears. It is up to you - I know you have of them. And no matter how hard Russia and its agents try Ukraine will be there some day.

Hollow words.


I don't see any connection here...


Neither do I that for Ukraine. But approach such as yours eventually leads to all horrors and disasters in history...


So do I for both Ukraine and Russia. With people like you Ukraine won't be there ever because Europe doesn't need another pain in ass in the form of Ukraine that can't make up its mind, can't adjust politically and economically and where people like you still play "benderovci". You gotta firstly moderate your views, make up your mind on what you really want, elect trustworthy politicians and then... V dobry put! I wouldn't mind you stay away from Russia as long as it's your people's choice.

What is your view of the subject ?

I knew you would say sth like that! :):):)

But, if you answered correctly and to the point, why should I say it`s senseless??? I am certainly able to praise an accurate reply. The problem is that your replies with kings` names were a bit too vague. Yes, they set the time, but I think you should have been more specific. :):):)

Your replies:


And here are complete ones:


The correct answer: soczewica koło miele młyn. The times of £okietek, indeed.


Abdank (Habdank). The times of Krzywousty, indeed.


A bear was let free by royal hunters on king`s order for hunting amusement, but it scared the queens` horse and she miscarried a child who could be a future ruler of Poland. The stupid king was Zygmunt Stary, indeed.

OK, my doubts about your Polishness are more or less dissipated. :):):):):):)


OK, the matter is settled. We shall both stick to our opinions.


OK, let there be free speech. Forgive me all my strong words directed to you and simultaneously I forgive you yours. Let there be peace, with difference of opinion maintained. :):):)

The reconciliation between Poland and Ukraine is a joke. Ukrainian government has never issued any apology for UPA crimes and ethnic cleansing. One of UPA leaders (Roman Szuchewicz) responsible for massacres of Poles recently got a monument in the centre of Lvov. Many Stefan Bandera's monuments are in Ukraine already. There will also be 'the street of UPA' in Lvov.


Maybe you would prefer photos from Poland's IPN site:

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/186/1465/Wolyn.html

These are only some examples of UPA atrocities, look carefully, so you can see how people were tortured and what you approve.


Do you really believe that's enough justification for what UPA did? So these innocent people just deserved it? You seem to forget that it was also deliberate, planned ethnic cleansing.


According to historians, OUN-UPA murdered 120 000 - 150 000 Poles.

Nobody really wants compensations, border change or Lwów. Just the truth. If Ukrainians cannot bear it, Poland should leave this useless and false 'partnership'.


And where is your respect for innocent victims of your 'heroes'?

Yes, I am Ukrainian at heart. :):):):)
Be sincere and say: I am Russian. :):):):) I am also Russian at heart so don`t be ashamed to admit it to me.


Yes, it does. But some info you provide in your posts is untruth. :):):)


Strange but I can`t see these characteristics in Nathan, especially chauvinistic. He just defends Ukraine`s right to exist as an independent state, that`s all, and despite Ukrainian problems, he expects to be treated as equal and has a full right to it. He doesn`t do anything what an average Pole or Russian wouldn`t do about his/her country.


:):):):) Hmm, let me think. I must say that their views, especially those suggesting a creation of a great alliance with Russia, can be shared by some Poles. How many, I don`t know. But surely less than a minority.

The views of Ironside and Solomon are alien to me. Why? Despite the similarities in languages and culture, and the fact that personal relations between Poles and Russians are correct in most cases, with most Poles/ Russians bearing no grudge to each other on a national level, I consider an alliance with Russia harmful to Poland.

Poland has definitely chosen the Western way, there are no doubts about it after we accessed NATO and EU. In fact, Poles` choice of the Western style of development took place in the 10th century by adopting and maintaining Catholic christianity till today.

Yes, between 10th and 20th century the course of action adopted various ways, Poland had its ups and downs and couldn`t really decide what it was, but today the country is westernizing decisively and I believe it is beneficial for us, Moreover, that`s what most Poles want (70-80% support for EU).

Whereas Russia is both West and East, or, frankly, neither West nor East. The Russian two-headed Eagle looks both sides. The Russian attitude to the West is a perfect mixture of admiration for the Western achievements with suspicion and resentment to Western decadence. I don`t suppose Russians might change even over a longer period of time.

An alliance with Russia would bring too much chaos into Poland. :):):) That is why I consider all guys with such views as Solo and Iron, no matter if they are Polish or other, as destructive and detrimental to the development of Poland.

Besides, their views are very close to the program that Polish nationalist party, Narodowa Demokracja, devised many years ago - an alliance with Russia against Germany. And I have always considered nationalists to be harmful guys.....

Last but not least, they propose flushing down such countries as Ukraine and the Baltics and I disagree with it. The more European countries there are in Europe, the better. The Baltics already consider themselves Western, Ukraine is still undecided but they are moving to it.

Did you get a transplant, pawian? ;) ;) Ukrainian at heart, eh?

Poland has solid enough relations with Ukraine. I'm not sure about this Timoshenko character though.

Thank you for helping. We have only 17 years of independance. Before that Russia ruled the country for 70 years and now we are 50 years behind the world's economies. At least we have freedom of speech whereas you can't say a word without looking over your shoulder. Sasha, fight for your country, make it free and on the way there try to mind your own business and not putting sticks in somebody else's spokes.


It is not true - read the following:

"Kwasniewski (left) and Kuchma in Pavlivka on July 11, 2003 (epa)
According to Poland's National Remembrance Institute, in 1943 the UPA murdered some 60,000 civilian Poles in Volhynia, in anticipation of an independent Ukrainian state after the war and a plebiscite on which country, Poland or Ukraine, should possess the disputed area. The Polish AK subsequently resorted to retaliatory actions. According to Ukrainian estimates, the AK may have killed in retaliation as many as 20,000 Ukrainians in Volhynia.

The postwar period only added to the Polish-Ukrainian record of mutual wrongs and prejudices. In 1947, the Polish communist government forcibly resettled some 140,000 Ukrainians from their native areas in southeastern Poland to Poland's newly acquired northern and western territories. The official excuse for that mass expulsion was the desire to undercut the social base of support for the UPA in the area."


Where have you seen any word of disrespect to the victims? Porzeczka, of you are saying something support it first by quoting me. Don't lie.

"In 2002, Kwasniewski officially condemned the forcible resettlement of Polish Ukrainians by the communist authorities in 1947. Poles expected that Kuchma in 2003 would respond with an official apology for the wartime massacres of Poles in Volhynia. But Kuchma did not fulfill that expectation.

One should not expect any official apologies from either Yushchenko or Kaczynski in Pawlokoma. However, their meeting there seems to be a significant, even if small, step toward Ukrainian-Polish reconciliation."

Yes, Kwasniewski recognized wrongdoing in the forcible resettlement. But neither he nor Kuchma declared wrongdoing by UPA or Armija Krajowa. If it comes to this, we have on both sides to ban both organizations. On the other hand, I understand that as UPA so AK fought for independance of our countries from Nazi, Soviet Union (not sure about AK, but UPA fought Soviets as well) and each other. There were some groups within these organizations who did bestial things to innocent and I condemn them. If you start to tell me that 20,000 is much less than 60,000 and other stories, then there won't be any concensus on that either. Stop saying that I don't have respect to these victims. Don't make a beast out of me. But if you want to be just - be just to the end and don't stop in the middle of the road. If you consider to condemn and ban the organizations just on the basis of some retarded animals wrongdoings, then we have to ban them both so you can't see even those who never killed any innocent and put their head for their country.

No, it isn`t. It is working.


They need time. Step by step, little by little, Ukrainians will understand that such a formal declaration is important to Poles. Do you really need such formality?


Why do you see Ukrainian monuments and forget about Polish ones? Polish controvercial figures, including murderers of innocent people, also have their monuments in Poland and Poles don`t care when foreigners critisize. So, there is a draw.


I pity all victims and think it was incredible tragedy.
But why all bashers of Ukraine only present photos of atrocities and juggle with numbers of victims? Why do they forget there is never an action without a due cause?

Look, if in peace times of 1930s Poles organised a cultural and national cleansing (called polonisation) for Ukrainians by closing their schools, churches, organizations, sending pacification police units to Ukrainian vilages to arrest opponents and beat peasants, what do you expect that the oppressed people would do during the cruellest of all wars? Yes, UPA butchers were complete barbarians but can you also remember Polish grave mistakes in Ukraine?


IPN has big problem with credibility nowadays. It has released or sponsored too many controvercial publications recently. If you live in Poland, you should know sth about it.


Good. Let give Ukrainians more time to think things over. When they feel strong, they will come to terms with their gloomy past, just like Poles have serious problems with acknowledging their own pogroms of Jews. Do you know that people living in Jedwabne where the biggest massacre took place refuse to admit it or express regret? They boycotted all celebrations, they feel wronged, sort of......

So, if Poles can`t accept their dark past, why do you expect it from Ukrainians???

What it has do to do with Ukraine and Poland question?


But I will not do it anymore - satisfied?


At 22 Of January Lwów was in the hands of the residents not Ukrainians!

As for common enemies Poland had been allied with Petrula from Ukraine proper.?!

My question if both Poles and Ukrainians were defending their territory - who was right ? both?


Naprawdę? aż się posikałem ze szczęścia!)))


Well, I'm not so sure about you!


Any examples ?


How many people had been killed ?
What about Ukrainian terrorist organizations finances by foreign governments?
(they murdered polish minister)
Are you equal that with Wolyn massacres ??
Well, maybe you are Pole but strange one.


Our land back or at last some of it.

Please spare me these parallels between the USSR being a big country (the statement "Russia ruling you" is wrong) and you falling 50 years behind the world economies). I don't mention that if you didn't inherit soviet industry, the eastern part of Ukraine would all move to Russia (now it's partially in Russia and partially wherever else money are since you don't seem to build up any viable economy) and the western one as the most wide-mouthed and the most poor would starve to death. Poor Nat.


What the hell you smoke Nat? This's not a serious discussion any longer... Are you in kindergarten? Who "we"? Citizens of Canada? Your Ukrainian "freedom of speech" is same as Russian in terms of that you only free to speak about what our governments think is free to speak out. Quit smoking weed and get back to the real world.


Anatoly my country is far from being perfect and I'm unlike you can admit that not shifting the blame to anybody. Don't worry I do my best to make it better place to live in... But what are you doing?

Ironside, back to your question.. Sorry, I didn't see your message.


Well... this is true that along history Ukrainians have been lack of self-directed policy and were not as distinct as its two greater neighbours. This is somewhat of an explanation of Nathan-like people existence who are revanchist per se and are eager to compensate the "deficiency" of history by rewriting and ridiculing it. So we can't blame Nats for their inferiority complexes. (Once I read the opinion of Ukrainian historian who seriously asserted that Ukrainians were nobody but founders of European civilization). However it's not correct to state they're the youngest or didn't have their own culture, language... etc. Ukrainian people migrating (or unfortunately being forced to migrate) to the east and west played large role in originating of the Rus' and future Russia as well as they impacted Rech Pospolita. For Nat I may be moscal whereas he might reckon himself as a great Ukrainian creature, but for me there's no reason to treat Ukrainians in general some other way than Russians as we're in a way two sides of same apple, our folks tightly interlaced along the history. Ukrainians in average beautiful people both physically and mentally. They don't have culture?.. look at Gogol... why can't we share him? The only reason he wrote in Russian didn't mean he wasn't any related to Ukraine... actually he was Ukrainian by birth. Isn't it their literature?

I believe that future of Poland, Ukraine (and Russia) is not in a land sharing, rubbing each other's nose into the dirt of bygone mistakes or manipulating history. The future is in good neighbourhood, treating each other as brothers. Sounds unachievable? Why not to try at least?

Wise words, Sasha. If there is more people like you in Russia then
the future looks bright for Russian-Polish-Ukrainian relations.

Cheers! :)

smjert ljacham

Where that happened? Particularly which part of Ukraine? Lvov?

tak, Lwow. as you see, some ukrainians came and vandalized the cross pleaced to commemorate polish profesors and their families executed by germans in '41

I admitted that I was somehow provocative towards Nathan.

The Rus country's were destroyed by the Tatars, one part survived and fund its way to grow.
Republic of Great Novgorod and the Grand Duchy of Moscow which later become czarist Moscow by assuming despotic power and killing and enslaving free citizen of the republic.

Kiev and the surrounding areas become part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and thus only Rus state were Duchy of Red Rus which had close ties, dynastic, economic and military with the Kingdom of Poland.

When Russ dynasty died King of Poland inherited that territory and made it part of the Crown, the same rule applied as for Burgundy or Provence.

And that finished Russ in this part of the Europe.
Only thing that left was religion.
After Union between Grant Duchy of Lithuania and Kingdom of Poland, province of Kiev and Wolyn become part of the Kingdom about 1560s.
It was almost empty land, sparsely populated, local nobility encouraged immigration of workers from the densely populated Kingdom.
In about 100 years that land have seen three things:
Rapid grow of the province in terms of the economic and demographic.
Local nobility started to think about themselves as a part of the Polish Commonwealth.
Immigrants from Poland integrated fully with local traditions and religion.
In that melting pot between Cossacks, Crown, Grand Duchy, Tatars and Moscow Rusyn tradition, language and culture had been born.

So, all references to middle ages Rus are irrelevant.
Rusyns were new phenomena but not necessary destined to become nation, only fall of the Polish Commonwealth were the reason that in the XIX century Rusyns started to build modern nation similar to Italy and Germans .

And for it's name funny enough they had taken the word from polish language Ukraine -meaning country at the edge or at the end( of the Polish Kingdom).

That closeness To Russia is result of many years of the Russian rule over that territory.
Notice that country's like Belarus and Ukraine are on the territories of the former Polish Commonwealth, they were different enough not to be devoured by the big Russian tyrannic Empire.

I have no problem with Ukraine proper and existence Ukrainian nation or first Ukrainian independent state ever.
My reservation are limited to some territory which should belong to Poland.
With that thing sorted out we all can have a one big happy family,
I suppose Russia doesn't want to be allies with Poland?? better to frighten children with story's about bad Poles kicking **** out of the poor innocent Cossack or ruling in Moscow with terror.LOL

That my view.

I don't need any revanche. I need nothing of Russia. I don't claim any land and not pretend history what it is not. Mention or quote me on one thing were I demanded revanche (which would mean killing millions of Russians, plundering your lands etc.) or anything in even remote sense. Find these and put 'em here, Sasha.


You talk of Gogol like he is the only writer out there. He was born in Ukraine, wrote in Russian, mostly of Russia - take him, he's all yours. We have enough writers and poets to give you some more if you need, just ask. :)


Good words, bravo. I desire and wish it as well. But I don't want to be brothers. I prefer to be neighbors who respect each other like business partner with no extra blubbery familiar dribble. The rest is fine. I would shake your hand right now.


Lol. All you can reserve is a kopniak w dupe. :)


Lol. ;)


Lol. ;0


Some brainless scum did it. Non-human rejects.

Lwów begs Kraków for help in organising EURO 2012 ...

LOL LOL LOL ...

Pure business deal. If Ukraine sees that L'viv won't be able to accept as many tourists, it proposes to Kraków to take some tourists into their hotels. Don't you think it is good for Poland? (Well, you are not Polish and you wouldn't want any benefit for that country to have). More tourists - more money through hotels, shopping, museums, church-visiting etc... But as far as I know, L'viv mayor Roman Sadovyj said that everything goes according to the plan, so I hope everything will be well underway till Noverber's next check-up. Lol.

ive got much better bussines deal. we say fcuk you to lwow, they are not ready in november and Poland gets more games, more tourists, more money ...

Now being totaly sarcastic if you are such a business guy ho doesn't believe in normal neighbourhood ... just business... you must understand that if you fail Poland is able to host more games ...

Kazaczok

What is to you neighborhood, having sex on the border line? If we are not ready, then we are not ready. I would be disappointed not to go to my native L'viv for a football match, but on the other hand, I always wanted to visit beautiful Kraków and Częnstachowa, Wawel castle etc. I would be happy for Poland and hope for some other time when we would be more prepared. But from what I hear, we will be ready, despite jealous anger of some Russians here.


You can say, nothing else. If you want more, you can suck, nothing else. :)

Oh yes, lick me here ... ;-)


good

Yes.

Józef Kuraś - a Polish highlander, before the war was a non-commissioned officer. During WW2 Germans killed his father, wife and a child. First he was in AK, then in the leftist underground. Cooperated with Soviet partisans and Red Army entering the region of Podhale. He actively led a propaganda war against AK underground in the area (accused AK of cooperation with Gestapo). After the war he became a local chief of militia (communist police), then of secret police. Not trusted by his communist superiors, he deserted, taking his men into the forest to fight against communists until his death in combat in 1947. During this period his soldiers executed some Jewish people, especially on trains and buses travelling through the area. His units were also known for harassing Slovak minority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Kura%C5%9B

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Kura%C5%9B

Let`s be frank about Kuraś - I think the dark side got him. If he hadn`t been fired by his superiors, he would have worked as a chief of communist secret police for many years. With his talents, he could have even made a career in their main headquarters in Warsaw, next to Berman, Radkiewicz etc.

His monument is in Zakopane but I won`t show it. The guy isn`t worth it. :):):):)


I don`t equal them, but I consider the WW2 Wolyn massacre a direct result of Polish brutal pacification of Ukrainian national aspirations in peace time before the war. Polish action caused Ukrainian reaction. Isn`t it obvious? DO you think that Poles would behave differently if they were in Ukrainian shoes?


No, I am a Pole who is able to look critically at his own nation`s actions. I believe Polish politics in Ukraine was incredibly stupid and blind. And it finally brought about the massacre. It just couldn`t end another way. I am so sorry...


Come on, be realistic. Nothing like that is going to happen. That is what irritated me about you previously - your fighting for a lost cause. :):):):)


I thought the era of colonization ended long ago. :):):)

In the same way Germans may demand the return of lands in western and northern Poland which once belonged to them. For quite long- 800 hundred years??? :):):)

Look at the map of the original Polish state - 10 century

Then Poles lost territories in the West and together with Lithuanians gained in the East.

only to lose everything during partitions:

Partitions practically ended any Polish aspirations for colonies in Ukraine and elsewhere. If Poles were unable to save their own state, how could they expect to keep colonies??

Do you understand now why I consider all Polish claims to Ukrainian lands not only silly but also groundless?? :):):)

In the same way Great Britain or France lost their colonies all over the world in result of WW2. What would you think about an Brit if he/she still claimed British rights to India and its territory? Crazy? :):)):)

Yes, Poland recaptured these Ukrainian lands again in 1918, by fire and sword. The fight was fair - Ukrainians lost because they were weaker, Poles won because they were stronger. But during WW2 it was Poles who lost due to their weakness. It was impossible for them to hold the colonies any longer.

Do you expect any compensation for the loss caused by the nation`s weakness? I am afraid such cases don`t happen.....

Better look at this and be happy with what you have - your own country. It could be different.....

Maps are from here - interactive map of Poland throughout centuries - very informative:
gdn.republika.pl/polska/polska1.htm

Still waiting for an answer.


Want to test your luck?


any arguments ?


Well, there is your interpretation and I know nothing about it.
And seriously I doubt your revelations about him (though I don't deny that at war, specially irregular, **** happens).


******** action and reaction ?It wasn't reaction adequate to anything and I don't think that Poles would had done the some if the situation were reversed.

As I said before if they didn't like it they should move to Soviet Ukraine - I bet they would be better off - famine and all that.

What aspiration ? do you think in the prewar situation there was chance for existence of the independent Ukrainian state ? Don't make me laugh!!!
On the said territory only 56% of the population were Ukrainian, most of the towns, industry, wealth and educated people were Polish, for one they could not be able to constitute proper government without cooperation from the Poles because there was not enough educated Ukrainians.

Thats for starters, do you think Soviets would have been standing idle.
They aspiration at the times were idiotic and dangerous to stability of any state, and considering that there were never an Ukrainian state it was impossible to do otherwise, Polish government at the time had all the power to ethically cleansing that territory, yet nobody even considered it - so don't you dare to say that Wolyn massacres were fault of the victims !!!!!!!

Your views at the matter are bias by the knowledge of the outcome and worthless.


Well, always blame victims - they cannot defended themselves!
Very wise if you blame perpetrators there is chance they might kick your ass.
I hope you are constant in your very citizen like attitude.

It just a thought but you and Nathan are coming across as one person - are you?


Do you know that for a fact ? Can you prove it?


For one what make you think so?
Secondly, what you call colonizations ?


Ah but they do! Don't believe me? Ask BB!
As for 800 years - thats wrong, check your informations.
Prussia became independent in 1701, Silesia was part of the Bohemian Kingdom and became part of Prussia in 1740.
Germans state - 1871.


Really ? What about Northern Ireland? Crazy?
And quite that nonsense about colonies , will you?


We lost to Soviet Union not to Ukrainians, Soviets no longer exist , and land taken away is claimed by states that never existed before.
And you say it's fair - maybe in the barmy world of weed smokers!

If you bend backward to accommodate everyone it may happen that someone will take advantage of you, and as for me you can do it on your own accord and your own personal responsibility but don't expect me to go along with you on this path of self deny.