UK, Ireland / Why do Poles come to England? [514]

Lets put this children benefits for Poles in some perspective:
1. 37,941 Polish children gets benefits from UK
2. 650 000 -> amount of Poles in UK (estimated, hard data don't exists)

The qustion is what percent from 1. has parents which don't legally work in UK. Because otherwise, they are paying for their benefits by taxes...

3. 7 322 088 -> amount of children in Poland (0-17 years) in 2008
So only 0,52% of Polish children get some benefits from UK...

sources:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224503/Taxpayers-20m-benefits-Polish-children--stepped-foot-Britain.html

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludno%C5%9B%C4%87_Polski#Struktura_p.C5.82ci_i_wieku

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]

I see your point. My point is that Belgium wouldn't be able ship all the crops from Poland in that hipothetical situation. That is my point :-) Farming is too diversified and decentralized industry, besides we could always close the borders couldn't we? :-)

PS. by the way, interesting map:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Arable_land_percent_world.png

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


But my position is: even if hipothetically farming sector would in some extent go into foreign hands, then it wan't mean lose output. I intentionally use dutchmans as an example, because some of them managed to gain some farms despite of legal issues. They didn't stop production, they've increased it thanks to bigger acreage and economy of scale. So why not to tax them?

Farming is specific industry. You buy land to produce. That is why I think there is no strategic threat here at all. But of course there are economic issues.

But anyway, it is hipothetical because this legal bariers in general works and farm land is already expensive enough to invalid such risk.

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


Hm... but all I'm saying is "lets tax the big ones and to some extent mediums". Who do you think is more willingly and effectively will introduce GM? I think big ones.

Another thing is that personally I'm not so sure that GM is pure evil. I think that it just isn't exmined enough... Hm.. off topic.

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


For that we have food reserves. From strategic point of view it is unimportant who produce food as long as it is produced in enough quantity on our territory. This sector is far too diversified to be an object of any foreign power significant influence. Nobody would be able to order to stop harvesting even if entire polish farming industry was for example ruled by dutchmans (which of course wouldn't be desirable but from other than safety reasons)

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


So basically our disagreement is about:
1. timing of introduction of taxation for medium and big boys. Because of PSL if it will be your way (later) then it will be good... so no point of arguing from my side.

2. importance of farming as a part of economy. That would be long discusion I think, so lets leave it the way it is (unless you will find and link here some interesting publication about it ;-) )

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


Proper discussion assume arguments from both sides. I delivered them you didn't (before).
Google is wonderful invention but I hope you don't believe using it equals to proper education ;-)

Back to the point:


You didn't undermine my argument. I agree this protection was necessary. It works.


Lets assume for a moment this is true (again, proves?). Isn't that the same people (PSL equals big farmers) that you want to protect from taxes ? Quite schizophrenic isn't it?


It is in Poland-EU accessing treaty, in the same way as closing German job market for Poles is.


I believe big ones are already there, and there is no need for protection any more. Besides why this what they are doing is more important than that others (me :-) ) do? I don't think that farming is more important that others parts of economy (which doesn't make it unimportant of course :-)). Probably that is the main source of our disagreement.

[quote=Sokrates]our farmers received one time dotations and have been cut off from long term funding/quote]
If you please explain it a little more? some example maybe? Because as far as I know Polish farmers are exactly in the same type of benefit programs but till 2013 they are getting less.

PS. Just to explain. I do agree that some groups of farmers still need other than EU funds support, but simply speaking I divide it into three groups:

1. small farms -> no point of changing anything, lack of taxes equals to social support
2. medium farms -> they need support in organizing cooperative groups, but in the same time they should be slowly get prepared for income tax (so maybe some tax reliefs in the first few years diminishing gradually with EU benefit growth)

3. big farms -> income tax the same as any other entrepreneur, because in fact that is who they are, entrepreneurs not poor farmers.

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


I agree it could be an argument to support Sokrates view. But at the same time, the other side argument was that Polish farming industry with full benefit in 2004 would undermine west markets. Besides 25% was in 2004. According to wiki (I know, not the best source) in 2006 it was 58% (but only 42% from EU). I don't know what is value for 2009, I will be glad if you could find it :-)


It weren't in 2004. Back then Poland was much, much cheaper.


Poland is in the second coalition (France,...). I've read that some compromise proposition is to cut it in 2011 but in this way that benefits will be equal for all farmers in EU in 2011. That is why I wrote before, that benefits will level to old members the latest in 2013

PS. Don't get me wrong, I'm not naive, of course that western big farmers would gladly take over our market. But because of the reasons I wrote I don't believe they are capable of this. All this restrictions concerning farming land were wise at the entry time, and some of them are wise even now. But it doesn't mean that one group of society can take advantage of the rest forever.

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]

Prove it :-) I don't know, maybe you right. But as far as I know:
- foreigners can't even buy freely any farming land in Poland till 2016
- medium prices for medium quality farm land in Poland are already close to prices in east Germany and France
- amount of support for polish farmers will level to old members the latest in 2013

So, why I as a taxpayer should sacrifice myself in order to save farmers (few percent of GDP btw) from some imaginary enemy? If it is really neccessary shouldn't it rather be common effort supported also and first of all by already rich farmers?

I think threat you are talking about don't exists anymore, but it is still used as an argument in order to maintain current unjust privileges.

Life / Winters Coming Up...How long can I stay out? [6]

Funny question :-) If you don't fall asleep in some ditch after party then you shouldn't have a problem with surviving polish winter ;-)

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


I don't see why people which have few hundred hectares of land and making big money don't pay income tax! I don't accept situation when most people with legal job has to pay, and someone with high income don't pay anything except very low land tax. It was understandable in the begining of 90' when there weren't any big private farms and almost all farmers were quite poor. But it changed.


I think it can be done step by step. Few years ago KRUS system were sealed. It became harder to get into it. Before, you've just had to buy 1 hectar of land and you could join it. I don't remeber who made this good deed... Next logical step would be slice it or/and diversifing fees inside this system.

PS. he he, I've make an effort and checked KRUS website, they've actually diversified fees since 01.10.2009. But they are still lower than ZUS...

krus.gov.pl/aktualnosci/dokument/artykul/wkrotce-nowe-zasady-podlegania-ubezpieczeniu-spolecznemu-rolnikow-i-wymiaru-skladek

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]


I think that it is not so hard as it seems. Thing is not "to touch farmers" as a whole, but only big ones. It is small percent, and even in the country people are angry that big farmers hardly pay any taxes. The problem is that Samoobrona and PSL are mostly parties of interests of this upper part farmers population, and they've managed to be part of almost every goverment.

Teacher and miners is different story because it is always about the whole group.

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]

In two areas which I consider important Samoobrona and PSL are equaly effective (unfortunately):
- blocking any serious KRUS reform -> both
- blocking any taxation for farmers -> both

I've pick PSL only because they generate less scandals. But I agree that they are rather damaging force.

News / Man Why Do People Like PO Instead Of PIS [120]

About liking...
Why? Kaczynskis brothers have some magical ability to **** off people who have some disagreement with them. Most of people don't agree with something, one cann't agree with everything. Kaczynskis have an ability to make big issue from literally everything. In the end you don't even remember what was the issue, you just remember that you can't stand the man. It is even worse than that because they are twins. It was their advantage when they were perceived positively because this image added up, but now their mistakes adds up or even multiply :-)

There were opinions that J.Kaczynski was great political strategist. But time proved he wasn't. He was good tactician sometimes but not stategist. His idea of ruling by constant dividing leaded to situation, when one day simple voter was in the right side of Kaczynskis division and the next day the same voter was there where ZOMO were. It was schizophrenic situation. In the end simple voter couldn't be just partial supporter of PIS, the only options left were with PIS or against it. In my opinion as long as J.Kaczynski will be the leader of PIS they have no chance to return to power.

To sum it up, in my memory PIS reign was:
positives:
- opening lawyers corporations for recently graduated by Ziobro
- reducing pension fund tax by Gilowska

negatives:
- very bad PR
- bad strategy
- terrible diplomacy (Fotyga anyone?)
- badly organized re(de)construction of secret services
- too socialists
- too catholic
- appointment of inexperienced man for National Bank chairman
- and I don't even want to start with Andrew and Roman...

So far PO reign is:
positives
- good PR
- better strategy
- better diplomacy
- less socialists
- less catholic
- if I have to choose from the two of them, then Pawlak is better than Lepper
- they've more influnce in EU because they are in big EU wide party. PIS has no meaning there
- good crisis handling
- good handling of infrastructural projects

negatives
- unethical lobbing by some important PO members
- unethical use of power by some PO members
- bad handling of shipyard issue, but I'm one of those who think that they should bankrupt and then reorganize, not the other way around...

News / Weird and quirky events and competitions in Poland. [8]


Yeah, that one is fun :-) But I wonder if it is safe for camera man to film the event :-)

News / Does Poland benefit from an Eastern, Western, or individualistic alliedship? [40]


But simple question for you MareGaea is:
would you rather have this 15 years of foreign investements and flourishing Irish economy or 15 years of stagnation? Yes, now Ireland is paing the price of success, but isn't it rather due to speculation bubble in construction? Personally I would rather take a chance and take Irish path and in the same time try to avoid mistakes wich Ireland made. Could Poland be any better I don't know, but it is worth a shot...

PS. Besides IBM, Google, Dell those are just recent names which are famous. In fact foreign investments in Poland are far more diversified, which is exactly why Poland as a whole so far is doing relatively well during this crisis.

PS2. Someone said that sonner or later all production will go to the east. Funny thing is, that in recent years many investments in Poland came from the east (LG, Sharp, yes I know simple assembly job, but still or Mittal Steel). I think that anybody who think that soon entire globe would became duty-free area is just dreaming. I won't gonna happen. Whatever some officials says, true is that EU is veeery effective guardian of internal EU market (to George8600 and that is the main reason why Poland has no other option but join EU).

News / Does Poland benefit from an Eastern, Western, or individualistic alliedship? [40]

Well, George8600, to put it mildly, you seem to be misinformed :-)

Some details (just for example):


Poland has enough own coal for about 200 years... Power industry in Poland is based on coal (not oil or gas) so Poland is quite safe from that poing of view. There is some import from Russia, but also from RPA for example. Russia isn't in monopolistic position here.

Yes, Poland imports about half of needed steel, but more from EU countries (70% - at least in 2007). Russia isn't in monopolistic position here either...

Yes, Poland imports a lot of oil from Russia, but mostly because it is cheaper. Because of Naftoport Russia isn't in monopolistic position here either...

The only resource where Russia has monopol in Poland is gas but:
- as I wrote it is not main energetic resource in Poland
- in a few years there will be new LNG terminal in Swinoujscie = Russia will lose monopolistic position...
-


=> NOT TRUE, Ukraine is/was paing lower prices. Poland is paing market prices and is significant customer for Gasprom...


It is quite controversial to assume, that 50 years of building USSR led army was such beneficial for Polish economy. It was rather waste of resources.


Do you know that in Soviets times there was something called "transfer ruble" ? It was para currency used in internal RWPG settlements. There are many differences, overall if I can pick one from the two I would rather have Euro (which doesn't mean I'm entirely for changing PLN for Euro) :-)

Overall, you should rethink your points. My knowledge and experience says:
1. First option - every time in history Poles tried it, voluntarily or not, Russia exploited Poland. Besides, what are you talking about ? Just look what are achivements of CIS or URB. Is that in your opinion alternative for Poland? I have nothing against cooperation with Russia, but alliance as an alternative for the West is not an option.

2. Second option - number of positives vastly exceeds negatives. Besides, historically and culturally is much more natural.

3.


Yes, Poland did well recently but not entirelly alone :-) Try to imagine our position without:
- EU market (for products and jobs)
- image of safe state (because of NATO and EU)
- EU funds for poorer regions...
It would be nice to be like Switzerland, but unfortunately history and geography matters.

News / The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations [74]

I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, from legal perspective there are different situations (Polish and Czechia). To put it simply:

In Poland:
1. Germans expelled just after the war -> there is no way they can claim anything back (probably because of Potsdam treaty, and probably because from obvious reason they weren't Polish citizens before WWII)

2. Germans which emigrated in 60/70' (in order to get free pass to West Germany they had to leave their properties to the communist state) -> they can fight in the polish court, sometimes they win.

In Czechia:
3. Germans were expelled by Beneš decrees, and from legal perspective it is somehow different from 1. (probably because they were Czechs citizens before WWII).

Hm... but your situation is totally different, because as I understand your grandfather was polish citizen before war. It is about nationalization by communists ? If so, then you should go to the court, because you can win it.

Travel / Looking for a typical restaurant in Wroclaw [26]

Good restaurants in Wrocław? Recently I liked these two:
- Oregano: pora.pl/venue/oregano

- Ragtime: en.ragtimecafe.pl

I don't know if they are typical, but they have good food :-)

If you are looking for cheaper one then Spinacz bar: gastronauci.pl/6243-bar-spinacz-wroclaw

has surprisingly good salmon pancakes considering their price...

Last but not least... if you like to taste really good chocolate cake then you should try "Czeski Film", but only upstairs (cigarette smoke downstairs is not to stand)

gastronauci.pl/5020-pub-czeski-film-wroclaw

heh... I'm hungry now :-)

News / European Quality Of Life Index: Poland in the middle [29]

Hm... those numbers just don't add up. I don't understand how it is posible
Poland:
1. net household income after taxes = 21331 GBP
2. GDP per head = 6984 GBP

Hm... maybe if in the household there are grandparents too ;-)

Life / Scientology in Poland [24]

I used to love Star Trek, but not to the point of making from it my religion ;-)
If you are interested, what Jean-Luc Picard would say to Scientologist try this:
youtube.com/watch?v=qnfeqfOPBuA
:-)


Typical Pole mistakes west popculture with west culture :-) It is also true that typical foreigner in Poland do the same mistake. But unfortunate true is that in capitalistic countries the brightest minds are lured by money, which is a killer for higher culture. It was a fast process which has taken place in Poland too. During communist times if you wanted do something creative you could only be an artists or mathematician. Now you can do a lot other unimportant and uncreative staff, but very profitable.

USA, Canada / SHOULD WE POL-AMS BE ASHAMED OF AMERICA? [24]


For the last time: USA wanted long-range in Poland. Poland in return wanted short and medium range... long-range is no use for our defence...


Nr 5 don't apply to Israel, we are not obliged to defend Israel (but I'm sure Israel is capable of selfdefence).


This type of reasoning is obsolete even in Poland...

USA, Canada / SHOULD WE POL-AMS BE ASHAMED OF AMERICA? [24]


Heh... that was good one :-) I really fail to see how "being" a shield is for Polands sake :-) In case you didn't notice the very reason why USA was obliged to give Poland Patriot missiles (short and medium range missiles) was simple fact that long range missile site in Poland would decrease Polands safety. As I understand current situation, Poland still get Patriots but there wan't be long range missile site. That outcome would make me more than happy :-)


That is funny too :-) As much as I appreciate Jewish contribution in Polish culture, modern Poland is in no way indebted to modern Israel. Israel is not even NATO country.

Life / Dogs in Poland - why do we keep them? [28]


Off course there is such law... but who cares ? ;-) Problem is that municipal police almost never gives tickets to dog owners...

USA, Canada / SHOULD WE POL-AMS BE ASHAMED OF AMERICA? [24]


What you've wrote is inaccurate. It wasn't USA helping Poland it was Poland helping USA :-) It wasn't shield dedicated to defend Poland but USA. Poland would be ON the shield not UNDER the shield...

Travel / Going to Poland - Szczecin, Katowice, Bytom, any suggestions [17]

Yeap, Gliwice seems to be the most interesting in Upper Silesia: skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=40378436&postcount=87

Certainly it is not only interesting city :-) Upper Silesia is the most underestimated tourist region in Poland... I suppose it is for "off the beaten track" tourism.

PS. begin of autumn is good time for mountain trekking. In Upper Silesia: beskid-zywiecki.hekko.pl or not so far away in Tatra mountains.

Travel / Going to Poland - Szczecin, Katowice, Bytom, any suggestions [17]

When in Szczecin you could try this (if weather will be fine):
Wolin National Park: wolinpn.pl/html/galeria/nowyindex1.html
50 km north from Szczecin.

Katowice? If you like basketball then between 17-20.09.09 there will be Eurobasket finals in Spodek, Katowice. I don't know if it is possible to get tickets...

Bytom has quite good architecture, but it is in not in good condition: skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=946222&highlight=bytom

If you are looking for cultural events try here (in Polish): cjg.gazeta.pl/Polska/0,87918.html

PS. If by any chance you will be in Wroclaw, you could use city guide :-) : wrota.wroclaw.pl/w/Main/main_eng.htm

News / Polish Poland vs westernized Poland [6]

heh, what a funny times we live in. Kebab as a symbol of western culture ;-)

Life / Could I live on 2000zl in Poland? [30]


The point is he don't want a job.

Life / Could I live on 2000zl in Poland? [30]

If it is net, then you should manage. If you were a Pole, I would say you will manage ok. But as a newcomer it would be hard for you. Interesting idea anyway...