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The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations


DariuszTelka 5 | 193  
11 Oct 2009 /  #1
I was just reading an article in an Norwegian newspaper that stated that The Czech president Klaus was unwilling to sign the Lisbon treaty because of the backlash of Germans who would claim reperations for lost land after the second world war.

I am actually in the beginning phase of looking at old land and houses that my family lost during and after the war. My father passed away some years ago and I have a huge pile of papers that he had in the basement. When me and my mother went through all these papers, we found papers that stated that "The polish governement has taken control of this land...etc", we also found papers that russians took a farm from my great great grandfather (They shot him on his farm and took it). So I have found papers that both the the polish government and the russians took my familys property. My family still lived in Poland after the war, but I have found no paper that they claimed it back.

Now that Poland has signed the treaty, does anybody here have any knowledge about the opening for reperations for lost land? I know millions of ethnic germans had to leave the Czech republic and their belongings, having to walk to Germany with just what they could carry. Imagine the potentially enormous claims these ethnic germans may come with against the Czech republic.

This then also has to apply to Poland and what the ethnic germans/poles lost when the borders were moved. We are talking about billions of Euro's here. I know that my great great grandfather had over a 100 hectars of land in Bydgoszcz that the russians took. The value of this piece of land will not be a couple of hundred thousand zlotys...but in the million(s).

So I have hired a lawyer to look at these matters, and he was not dismissive when he heard what we had to tell him.

Anyone here want to put their 5 cents in....I need more information! :-)

Dariusz
1jola 14 | 1,879  
12 Oct 2009 /  #2
and he was not dismissive when he heard what we had to tell him.

Anyone here want to put their 5 cents in....I need more information! :-)

In think you will have to put in more than 5 cents in, or your lawyer will become dismissive. Good luck in your new hobby.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
12 Oct 2009 /  #3
The Czech president Klaus was unwilling to sign the Lisbon treaty because of the backlash of Germans who would claim reperations for lost land after the second world war.

Nope, Klaus is waiting for the result of a court case that 17 Senators of Czechia have started (for the second time) in order to see if the Lisbon Treaty is legal or not. The first time it was declared legal by (I think) the Supreme Court of Czechia, so they tried again. If the Court rules again that it's fully legal, Klaus will ratify the treaty. Should happen before the end of this month.

Edit: I just read that indeed there is a thing about the Sudeten-Germans. But it wasn't about reparations, but in case they would re-claim their lands after being driven out of Czechia after the war. So I'm not really sure what he really wants. He should just sign and stop nagging.

>^..^<

M-G (coffee)
jwojcie 2 | 763  
12 Oct 2009 /  #4
I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, from legal perspective there are different situations (Polish and Czechia). To put it simply:

In Poland:
1. Germans expelled just after the war -> there is no way they can claim anything back (probably because of Potsdam treaty, and probably because from obvious reason they weren't Polish citizens before WWII)

2. Germans which emigrated in 60/70' (in order to get free pass to West Germany they had to leave their properties to the communist state) -> they can fight in the polish court, sometimes they win.

In Czechia:
3. Germans were expelled by Beneš decrees, and from legal perspective it is somehow different from 1. (probably because they were Czechs citizens before WWII).

Hm... but your situation is totally different, because as I understand your grandfather was polish citizen before war. It is about nationalization by communists ? If so, then you should go to the court, because you can win it.
Salomon 2 | 436  
12 Oct 2009 /  #5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Fundamental_Rights_of_the_European_Union

The United Kingdom and Poland have interpretations of the treaty as described in their attached protocol. The protocol limits justiciability of the charter in UK and Poland.

Czech republic is also negotiating an opt out from the Charter in order to avoid that Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia after WWII could claim property back.

Klaus wants the same rights as Poland and UK ... Poland and UK have negotiated it for different reasons... czechs haven't done it - Klaus wants to change it.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254  
12 Oct 2009 /  #6
Now that Poland has signed the treaty, does anybody here have any knowledge about the opening for reperations for lost land? [/quote]

It's not going to happen in Poland. There may be individual cases which succeed - but as you're not actually located in Poland, it's going to be a long and hard fight to claim anything, and there's absolutely no guarantee of success.

I think it's all very sad that people are now choosing to dig up wounds from the past - what happened, happened - and having seen the trouble caused by many landlords who came back to claim control of their houses (often quite wealthy people to begin with), it's something that's better left unspoken.
OP DariuszTelka 5 | 193  
12 Oct 2009 /  #7
Both my grandparents sides were polish citizens. I have all the paperwork, the birth certificates, the wedding certificates etc. But both my grandfathers had to serve in the German army, (we come from Gdansk and Katowice). So when the German army turned up at the door with the "request" to join, you joined, or were shot/put in jail.

I know it's a long time ago, but just because it's been a while, doesn't make it right. The government seized the land from my family, and many others. It was the government that got the money and sold it on to the next people. I am not interested in turning up at the doorstep and saying; get out, it's my familys house. If I can get todays rate for the property, from the government, that's ok. The people who live there today probably have nothing to do with the landgrab. So the government took the land and the money, now they have to give it back. Fair and square.

My family worked hard to get that farm. It is my duty as the last living heir to claim that land. I can't let bygones be bygones. If that is how the world worked, then all the governments could just take land from people and that was that.

MareGaea; I just wrote what the norwegian newspaper wrote, and they wrote that he didn't want to sign because they were afraid of massive reperation claims from germans who were kicked out....but of course, there are always things we don't know and political games that has to be played before things go through.

Dariusz
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363  
12 Oct 2009 /  #8
If it weren't the Sudeten it would be something else...he would find another threadbare reason not to subscribe.
(Because he didn't mentioned them before, didn't he)
We should just sit him out...he can't stay in power for eternity! :)
He is totally isolated now...

I can't let bygones be bygones.

Well..you better do!
In not doing that you risk our future...

If you must have to have a farm in Poland why not buy some land there and settle?
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
12 Oct 2009 /  #9
Who the f()ck will return to me my family's land lost in former east Poland, now Ukraine?
Everybody gets a share except for stupid Pollocks, again, right?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363  
12 Oct 2009 /  #10
Ukraine isn't in the EU (yet).....
OP DariuszTelka 5 | 193  
12 Oct 2009 /  #11
If you must have to have a farm in Poland why not buy some land there and settle?

Because I don't have to if it's already mine. My family owns land. Government steals it. New government comes in telling you can ask for it back. I take it back. I don't see the problem here.

Besides, do you know how much a 100 hectars of land costs nowadays? Especially now that Poland are in the EU and all the european companies are investing in land. Why would I want to buy another piece of land? Where would I get all that money from? What if the new government in the future takes THAT land away from me. And my grandson wants it back one day....or should he ALSO buy NEW land...wow, I'm getting dizzy...

The point is, it's my land, I want it back. If someone stole your car...wouldn't you want it back..even if it was ten years later? (let's say it was a ford mustang). ;-)

Dariusz
Marek11111 9 | 816  
12 Oct 2009 /  #12
let us review this Poland was partition in 1798 then we had policy of not allowing Poles to own property and if they did it was taken from them.

In 1918 Poland get independence but polish property remain in oppressors hands
In 1939 Germany starts war to create breading space and kills millions of people and takes property from Polish citizens.
1945 Germany losses war, Stalin moves borders to crate space from Germans, communists take over Poland and gov.take away property from owners and kill more Poles.

1998 Poland get independence after WWII and elects democratic government.
And now Germans want their property back, well I say to this give us the property back that you took, give us the lives you took, you Germans have a lot nerves to try to take from Polish people again.
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
12 Oct 2009 /  #13
well I say to this give us the property back that you took...

Done ... now pay or get out ... ;)

you Germans have a lot nerves

You saw that DariuszTelka is from Norway, did you?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363  
12 Oct 2009 /  #14
I'm getting dizzy...

Your grandparents and mine chose their side and lost...we have to pay and take it like men, period!
It could be much worse!

well I say to this give us the property back that you took,

Well, you got it (with interests) now shut the **** up!
gjene 14 | 203  
12 Oct 2009 /  #15
Hi Dariusz

In regards to your question, look under petitiononline.com/kresy08/petition.html.

You have until the end of December of this year to file any claims. Go through all the documents that you have and sort them out by date and get them scanned. After that, get a lawyer Lukasz Piotrowski to help represent you.

After that, make copies of the documents and send them to the nearest Embassy and a set to the lawyer. You don't have to use the one I mentioned, but he is one I can think of at the moment. You are lucky to still have the documents. The website will give you some information that may help to settle some questions. But at the same time that is why I suggested a lawyer to help in filing the appropriate claims.
OP DariuszTelka 5 | 193  
12 Oct 2009 /  #16
gjene;

Thanks! That is the kind of information I was looking for. I will read it all and talk it over with my lawyer!

Dariusz
gumishu 11 | 5,326  
12 Oct 2009 /  #17
You saw that DariuszTelka is from Norway, did you?

he just happens to live in Norway (perhaps because he moved there to find a job)
he clearly stated his family lived in Poland after the war and also that his ancestors were of German ethnic origin
and yes I am against giving back property (or compensating for it) to the Germans or those who signed the Volksdeutsche list

Your grandparents and mine chose their side and lost...we have to pay and take it like men, period!
It could be much worse!

and Bratwurst is unusually reasonable here
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
12 Oct 2009 /  #18
also that his ancestors were of German ethnic origin

Where did he say this? His name suggests otherwise.

and yes I am against giving back property

I agree - but for all nationalities. Touching the status quo after so many years doesn't make sense.
gumishu 11 | 5,326  
12 Oct 2009 /  #19
The United Kingdom and Poland have interpretations of the treaty as described in their attached protocol. The protocol limits justiciability of the charter in UK and Poland.

Czech republic is also negotiating an opt out from the Charter in order to avoid that Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia after WWII could claim property back.

Klaus wants the same rights as Poland and UK ... Poland and UK have negotiated it for different reasons... czechs haven't done it - Klaus wants to change it.

and when Poland was trying to push the 'population square root voting power' through for the Lisbon agreement they would't back us (though it was in their own interest as well) - Polish side managed to have some opt-out as for Basic Rights Charter (I have no idea if this is enough to stop the Germans from getting back of their properties left in Poland) - now the Czech side has to stand for their own interests - it's a moan yes - but I do wish the Czechs luck with that
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
12 Oct 2009 /  #20
Sometimes I have the feeling that the Polish and Czech governments are a little bit to eager to prevent Germans and others from reclaiming property lost after WW2. Is it because they fear (but do not admit) that those claims are legitimate?
gumishu 11 | 5,326  
12 Oct 2009 /  #21
what do you hold for legitimate - was murder of milions of Polish citizens (including almost 3 million ethnic Poles legitimate - was their slave labour legitimate - do you think it was ever fairly compensated for by the German state - I take the seizure of German property after the war as means of compensation (though many who settled there were actually stripped of property in the East) - it's not the Poles who can't bury the past and go on - you should know for example that any reprivatisation legislation is blocked in Poland because of the danger of German claims to the land - the European Tribunal cannot deal with the past legislation (the legislation before it came to existence) but any new legislation can be sued if it discriminates on grounds of nationality, citizenship - and used by the progeniture of the expelled Germans to their advantage
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
13 Oct 2009 /  #22
"The point is, it's my land, I want it back. If someone stole your car...wouldn't you want it back..even if it was ten years later?"

Actually, a more apt example would be if someone stole your grandfather's car but now you want it back.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254  
13 Oct 2009 /  #23
The government of the PRL has absolutely nothing to do with the modern day government - although you might want to see it that way, I think it's well established that the Mazowiecki government was a clean break from the governments of the past. You simply cannot compare a government in a puppet regime to a democratically elected government!

The fact that you want 'today's rate' for the property says it all - you're simply interested in the money. A fair rate would be to pay you the value of the land in the day that it was seized. Anyone who was interested in seeing a wrong righted would accept that quite happily - but unfortunately, it seems to be a huge problem among the 'Polonia' that they want to come back and take what they believe to be theirs without a damn for the social consequences - of which they don't care because they don't live in Poland anyway.

As for 'now they have to give it back' - with an attitude like that, you'll struggle to get far in modern day Poland. I can't imagine many people resident in Poland will have much sympathy for someone who lives in a much wealthier country trying to force the Polish government into giving them even more money - especially when the Polish government can't even afford to deal with the problem of child poverty in Poland!

My family worked hard to get that farm. It is my duty as the last living heir to claim that land. I can't let bygones be bygones. If that is how the world worked, then all the governments could just take land from people and that was that.

Again, what has the current government got to do with the puppet government of the PRL? Absolutely nothing. Perhaps there might be some social responsibility to compensate people with the amount of money that the land was worth when it was seized - but beyond that?

The fact that you're talking about it being 'your duty' is betraying the fact that you simply want to get even more money. I could understand the sentimental reasons for wanting the land back - but the fact that you're just attempting to grasp money means you're getting no sympathy from me.

In not doing that you risk our future...

Referring back to the Polonia - it's quite clearly obvious that many of them don't give a damn about Poland today and that they're just interested in the money. This is just yet another example - and it's sad that they have absolutely no social responsibility towards the Polish state, yet they expect the State to have social responsibility towards them.

Because I don't have to if it's already mine. My family owns land.

Obviously, you don't understand the issues whatsoever. It certainly isn't yours at the moment, although you can launch a possible claim. There's no guarantee of success - and personally, I find it sickening that you're happy to take money from a poor Polish state struggling massively with the budget just to fund your undoubtably-luxurious lifestyle in a very wealthy country.

Besides, do you know how much a 100 hectars of land costs nowadays? Especially now that Poland are in the EU and all the european companies are investing in land. Why would I want to buy another piece of land? Where would I get all that money from? What if the new government in the future takes THAT land away from me. And my grandson wants it back one day....or should he ALSO buy NEW land...wow, I'm getting dizzy...

Have you considered the fact that perhaps your late father attempted to claim the land and was unsuccessful?

My family still lived in Poland after the war, but I have found no paper that they claimed it back.

Doesn't mean they didn't. Perhaps instead of seeing Zloty everywhere, you might want to spend more time investigating what's actually happened on the ground.

I agree - but for all nationalities. Touching the status quo after so many years doesn't make sense.

I think giving back property in the first place was a massively bad move to make - sure, it appeased the already-wealthy Polonia - but at what cost? Of course, you end up with already wealthy individuals simply getting richer at the expense of many people who did absolutely nothing wrong.

Sometimes I have the feeling that the Polish and Czech governments are a little bit to eager to prevent Germans and others from reclaiming property lost after WW2. Is it because they fear (but do not admit) that those claims are legitimate?

The problem isn't so much the claims being legitimate, but rather the instability caused by valid claims. Can you imagine the bill for the Sudetenland alone? It would bankrupt the Czech state - and likewise, I can't imagine Poland has the money to pay for all the potential claims that Germans might have at the moment.

This thread just goes to show what the Polonia in particular are doing - does anyone actually believe that the individual will spend any of the money (if he gets it) in Poland? I doubt it.

As I understand it, many Poles would like their property back in and around Lwów too. But they have no chance - so they're doing the logical thing and simply buying up Lwów. The same thing happened with Wroclaw and Germans - and I think this is the best solution.

Anyway - does the Polish state really want to pay money to a thinly-disgused God-hating racist?

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-mass-immigration-article-response-38990/

Hmm.
1jola 14 | 1,879  
13 Oct 2009 /  #24
Let's see. Dariusz wants me, the Polish taxpayer and a descendant of Poles who defended this country against traitors like his grandfather, to pay him now for property lost during the invasion and communist occupation. Sick, man. I hope your lawyer sucks you dry while you dream of riches at the expense of today's generation.
OP DariuszTelka 5 | 193  
13 Oct 2009 /  #25
I see some trolls came out here on this thread. So I'm a "Racist", "sick man", "traitor", "God hating", and my lawyer should bleed me dry...maybe somebody needs a hug?

Maybe I should make a few things clear; I am moving BACK to poland in the next few years. Setting up a new life, finding work and a place to live, has to be done before I actually move. I have been living in Norway since 1977, and have no ties whatsoever with Poland besides my family coming from Poland. As for what kind of compensation I should get, I have no clue. I would like the land BACK! But I don't want to throw anyone out either, so if the goverment can give me some kind of compensation for the land, I can take that and buy land SOMEWHERE ELSE. It was MY FAMILYS LAND! I don't care if the regime was communist, national socalist or from MARS! Are you saying that you would refuse the survivors of the holocaust any claims they might have because it was a different regime back then? The German banks would be very happy to hear your argument.. Germany, Switzerland, Austria and even Norway have paid BILLIONS OF DOLLARS in reperations for what "they did". Why shouldn't Poland do the same? Two wrongs don't make a right! If jews can claim money becasue their grandfather had to work in a factory, or lost their paintings, then I can claim my familys farm back. Which government who took it, under which regime, I don't care. Today you have a right to claim it back, and I will.

About the land I'm talking about in Bydgoszcz. My great grandfather was shot by RUSSIANS while on the farm alone. He walked on his knees because he was a cripple. A russian family then settled there. My great grandmother was in Katowice visiting family. She relocated there after this happened. In the 80's my family went there to see how it looked. When the owner saw my family on "his" property, he ran across the fields to the neighbour. Nothing more happened then. Since then both my grandmother and my father have passed away, and I found all the paperwork on these matters.

When it comes to my "traitor" granfathers as 1jola so eloquently puts it, you didn't really have a choice back then. The germans saw Slask at "german" territory, and anyone who had german ancestry or was decided to be "Volksdeutsche", would be forced to either join, or be shot. Another member of my family got shot in front of his pregnant wife because he refused. My grandfathers did what any sane man with a wife and kid would do, try to survive. To call somebody like that a traitor shows that your hatred and animosity to a big part of the polish people of today with my history. I am, and feel, as much Polish as you do. Yes, I come from a part of Poland that has a German/Polish history, so automatically I come from a family of traitors? Good luck with that theory next time you are in the Slask region....

As for my claim on my familys property that was taken from them, if the government in Poland hadn't opened for this, then I would have no case...so if you are angry, take it up with the Seijm.

Dariusz
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254  
13 Oct 2009 /  #26
Maybe I should make a few things clear; I am moving BACK to poland in the next few years. Setting up a new life, finding work and a place to live, has to be done before I actually move. I have been living in Norway since 1977, and have no ties whatsoever with Poland besides my family coming from Poland.

And yet you expect the current Polish state (which, as you say, you have no ties whatsoever with) to compensate you? I don't think much people are going to have sympathy with the descendant of a traitor.

When it comes to my "traitor" granfathers as 1jola so eloquently puts it, you didn't really have a choice back then. The germans saw Slask at "german" territory, and anyone who had german ancestry would be forced to either join, or be shot. Another member of my family got shot in front of his pregnant wife because he refused. My grandfathers did what any sane man with a wife and kid would do, try to survive.

He was a traitor, through and through. A true patriot would die for their country - and in such times, choosing to sign the list rather than die for their country was nothing but cowardice.

As for my claim on my familys property that was taken from them, if the government in Poland hadn't opened for this, then I would have no case...so if you are angry, take it up with the Seijm.

I'm not angry, I just think that the Polonia in many cases have absolutely no social responsibility towards their homeland. The fact that these people (including you) would rather see a poorer Polish state provided they kept their wealth symbolises everything that was wrong with the 'Noble Democracy' and onwards.
OP DariuszTelka 5 | 193  
13 Oct 2009 /  #27
He was a traitor, through and through. A true patriot would die for their country - and in such times, choosing to sign the list rather than die for their country was nothing but cowardice.

These are easy words to write from behind a computer screen...

If you have german ancestry and live in a country that is now called Poland, rather than Germany. Things are going ok, neighbours are friendly and life goes on. People resettle, start over again and so on. Many a border and town has found itself under new rule and new states. Should you move everytime this happens? Look at the map of Europe and it's history, you will find millions of "diaspora", living in bordertowns, close to their old countries. But they stay put. It's their land, maybe they don't even care which country it's in. They have long traditions, generations have been born, lived and died on that land. One day a war breakes out. You haven't made a decision. You speak a dialect that is not your current states official language, you keep your traditions, but your "new" state wants you to fight for them, against your "family's" old country. You are torn between the two...they will both shot you if you don't join them. Which side do you choose? Are you anti-communist? Pro Nazi? A patriot to your own country, but don't like the current governement? it's 1939 and you hear a knock on the door.... they have made the decision for you. Your kids and wife are crying and afraid.

I don't know. I'm saying "delphiandomine" is very tough, and says "TRAITOR"! But how can you know when you haven't been there, when your family is not on the line, when you can't choose? Death before dishonour? That's a movie...survival is real life.

Dariusz
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363  
13 Oct 2009 /  #28
He was a traitor, through and through. A true patriot would die for their country - and in such times, choosing to sign the list rather than die for their country was nothing but cowardice.

Crap!
Interwar Poland was rife with ethnic tensions, hate and violence...
Why should a Pole with german ancestry die for a polish Poland where he was hated and unwanted???
Often he was forced to become polish citizen rather then stay German because thanks to the Treaty of Versailles former german land fell now under polish rule? That's what happened to Bromberg...

Would you call Poles fighting and chosing polish rule during the partititions rather than german rulership traitors to Germany too??

(On the other hand nobody was forced to subscribe the Liste as Volksdeutscher I. So if he hadn't there wouldn't had been the call to the arms....)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
13 Oct 2009 /  #29
Why do i feel DariuszTelka is a sock account trying to stir stuff up? As far as German people serving in Wehrmacht or in any even most remote way affiliated with Nazi Germany (like using slave workers on their farms) my views are that they should not get even one inch of land, even the tiniest amount of money, we shouldnt even nod intheir direction.

Dariusz i dont care whether your ancestors were made or not, personally i prefer to believe they were nazi, its like with Erica Steinbach where every SS-man in her organisation claimed they made him wear the badge.

Your familiy affiliated yourself with Nazis and so you lost it all, its OK to strip Nazi supporters of possesions or of life and by principle of not encouraging Nazis your family should not get anything regardless of any documents you have, moral principles should be above any legal ones.
MarcinK - | 36  
13 Oct 2009 /  #30
Germans who would claim reperations for lost land after the second world war.

Lose wars, expect to lose land.

Russians took a farm from my great great grandfather (They shot him on his farm and took it).

They were following the advise of their boss, "No man no problem" -Josef Dzugashvilli.

I know millions of ethnic germans had to leave the Czech republic and their belongings, having to walk to Germany with just what they could carry.

You'd have to ask the question as to why those Germans left the Czech Republic only with what they could carry? Exactly what and who were they running from? To answer that question quickly puts things into clearer perspective.

This then also has to apply to Poland and what the ethnic germans/poles lost when the borders were moved.

Who moved those borders? re: Yalta Conference.

We are talking about billions of Euro's here.

Bingo.

I know that my great great grandfather had over a 100 hectars of land in Bydgoszcz that the russians took.

Which you more than likely will never get back.

So I have hired a lawyer to look at these matters, and he was not dismissive when he heard what we had to tell him.

Of course he didn't, just wait till you start talking about how you're going to pay for his services, you'll notice he'll start to become more dismissive.

Anyone here want to put their 5 cents in....I need more information! :-)

Walka z wiatrakami. I once remodeled a bathroom for a Holocaust survivor whose father owned a great deal of land, buildings, homes and factories in Belchatow. He asked for me and my father's help to get him restitution for what his family lost and to no avail. All of his fathers property exchanged hands from the Soviets to the Polish Communist government and to an alphabets worth of workers cooperatives before it was sold off to private hands after the 'fall of communism'. Just where exactly do you think that restitution money is going to come from? Why should people who legitimately and honestly purchased these properties have to pay for crimes not committed by them? Why should the Polish people, pay who were basically occupied and oppressed by the Communists and Soviets and had little to no influence over their activities and actions? Most of the people responsible for this situation are either dead or about to die, and the organizations that allowed them to do what they did gone. That's what came up in his court cases, and that's why he lost.

"War is a **** sandwich and all of us have to take a bite."

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