Listen, Sokrates. what I found in your link is that he was born in Subotiv, near Chyhyryn, Ukraine. His father belonged to a clan (whatever "clan" means). So? He had a coat of arms from some Polish noble origin. So? His father was Ukrainian as well as he himself.
I encourage you to start follow Bogdan's DNA sequences to try to figure it out. But still you didn't mention the other two I mentioned above. Don't worry, Sokrates, I love you, my Polish friend. Just don't be jealous.
Obviously Chmielnicki could not have been a Pole as he was born in "Ukraine" and generally was a good guy that would never harm a fly in his life, not to mention an Ukrainian peasant.
Jarema on the other hand was certainly a Pole despite his place of origin, which coincidentally was Ukraine too.
Jarema Wisniowecki - was Orthodox and since Poles were in majority Roman Catholics and since his birthplace can't be know and since place of birth usually doesn't clearly defines one's ethnicity, still I consider him to be Ukrainian as Bogdan Chmelnickij. The fact that he fought against Cossacks for his property and status doesn't give me much respect to him, but still he , in my opinion, was Ukrainian, Matyjasz.
So if Jeremi was Ukrainian all this battles about which you have mentioned before were between Ukrianians ? :)
It was Jeremi who wanted to suppres Cossack uprising in blood. Cossacks made uprisng for higher salaries ... and it is different story. If you want to build your national identity on cossacks ... let it be so but then Jeremi was Pole. If you want to bild your national identity on Jeremi ... then ...
Jarema Wisniowecki - was Orthodox and since Poles were in majority Roman Catholics and since his birthplace can't be know and since place of birth usually doesn't clearly defines one's ethnicity, still I consider him to be Ukrainian as Bogdan Chmelnickij. The fact that he fought against Cossacks for his property and status doesn't give me much respect to him, but still he , in my opinion, was Ukrainian, Matyjasz.
Ay, and this is the place where the dog is berried, Nathan. Many, if not most of those that were oppressing your beloved Cossacks and peasants in "Ukraine", could have been in fact successfully described as "Ukrainian" themselves. But why would you want to blame your kin for the misdeeds that your people went through when you can blame the "Polish Lords" for this, innit?
Prince, Cossacks didn't want crumbs from your table, you would be better off shoving it in you arse. Wisnioweckie was a Ukrainian traitor fighting for your ancestors.
Oh yes they wanted. If you want to talk about ethnicy of Cossacks ... they were bunch of criminals from whole Europe... Spain, Germany, Poland, Lithuania ect. Everybody who had problems with law in his country could join Cossacks.
Cossacks made uprising not to protect Ukrianian peasants but to increase their sallaries, they wanted more numerous conscrptions in to Crows army.
Ukrainian peasan't had hard life as Polish peasants, German peasnats, French peasants ... in 18 - 19 century whole europe endend this system and now money run the world.
Build your national identity on what you want ... you can do it on Cossacks. Poles don't consider Ukrianians to be Poles but have more realistic view on what have happend in the past.
This was downright savagery on the Poles. Szpilman wrote about this in the Pianist. After being ravaged by Nazis, the Poles were happy to see some Ukrainians enter the fray. Little did they know how brutal they were, how sinister their motives were.
Prince is right according to what I've read. These people were vagabonds, ready to fight for the highest bidder. What business did they have in Warsaw anyway?
Thank you, Prince, I do have and know my roots. My roots lie in Kijiwska Rus, Halyckie Kingdom, Cossacks and up until now. I wonder why are you so anxious about my roots and ethnicity. I am Ukrainian and will be one till my last breath. I am proud of my heritage. "Bunch of criminals", you should be ashamed to say that. The fact that you were carrying feathers and ate with silver spoons doesn't make you more noble or right to call others criminals. There are different people everywhere, of course, there were other ethnicities among Cossacks - they didn't judge people based on their position in the world, money or origin - like great "republic" at that time. Stop digging in my roots, better look at yours.
Matjasz, I blame all who are to blame and frankly saying I have less respect to Ukrainian traitors than to Polish lords. And since you agree that Wisniowicki was Ukrainian , so Ukrainians were fighting among themselves. Therefore, don't whine that Cossacks were brutal to Poles - they fought among themselves.
Listen, Sokrates. what I found in your link is that he was born in Subotiv, near Chyhyryn, Ukraine. His father belonged to a clan (whatever "clan" means). So? He had a coat of arms from some Polish noble origin. So? His father was Ukrainian as well as he himself.
That is correct, his father had a polish coat of arms whiich he couldnt not have had being Ukrainian since they used different coats of arms :)
they didn't judge people based on their position in the world, money or origin - like great "republic" at that time.
Let it be so - be good Cossack who value freedom don't judge people based on their position, money and origin. Poland is good for you and don't want to conquer your land. Indpendent democratic Ukraine living in peace with Poland is what we need.
To be honest it is PiS and post communists who love Ukrainians and prefere to avoid debates about darker sides of Ukrainian history.
To be honest Ukraine is so young country struggling with one common identity that Kaczyński and Kwasniewski are right at this point. They are still not ready for such debate.
Let it be so - be good Cossack who value freedom don't judge people based on their position, money and origin. Poland is good for you and don't want to conquer your land. Indpendent democratic Ukraine living in peace with Poland is what we need.
Why do you keep lying to the man! Our military is drawing up plans even now.
The problem is that in times of Cossacks if Polish peasants wanted to change the system my Polish ancestors would smash your ancestors with German, Czech, Hungarian nobility ... without anny hesitation, of course first to help would be aristocracy from our commonwealth.
If Polish worst enemies had similar problems with their peasants ... and our peasants wanted similar right ... of course in such Polish aristocracy would help them.
Look on French revolutuion and european reacion on this event ...
Have you read "Lalka" by B. Prus, Sokrates? There is a good example how you could buy coat of arms just having enough money. Or "Count Monte Cristo" by Duma where a simple guy Dantes buys by his fortune a title of a count (Hrabiego in Polish , if I am not mistaken). Therefore, to tell about coat of arms and one's ethnicity is useless. Certainly it was prestigious at that time to have one so they bought them, even changed last names adding "-ckij" or whatever.
I think if you help your generals to draw these plans a bit faster, Sokrates, it would be nice, because it really takes a long time to put 'em to work. Ukraine is waiting.
Prince, I respect you, but stop using expressions like "Poland is good for you". It does what it does for its own sake and Ukraine is not waiting for a free breakfast. Just let's be friendly countries because each one of us has many other social problems to deal with on inside.
Matjasz, I blame all who are to blame and frankly saying I have less respect to Ukrainian traitors than to Polish lords. And since you agree that Wisniowicki was Ukrainian , so Ukrainians were fighting among themselves. Therefore, don't whine that Cossacks were brutal to Poles - they fought among themselves.
I’m pretty sure I haven’t done any of that.
Traitors of what? A concept that appeared two centuries later? Or maybe traitors of Cossacks? But the problem is they were not Cossacks, but ruthenian nobles and were doing the same what ethnic polish nobles were doing to ethnic polish peasants in Polonia Maior, or what ethnic Lithuanian nobles were doing to ethnic Lithuanian peasants in GDoL.
Oh ye Gods, thats what you get for not knowing squat about history. Chmielnicki was the son of an Starosta, a guy from an old family with an old coat of arms, the guy had a polish coat of arms because (DUH!) he was a polish noble and logic dictates that if papa Chmielnicki was a Pole than Bogdan Chmielnicki was also a Pole.
No matter how you twist it one of your great heroes was polish and not just any Pole but a pretty high ranking noble at that! How does that feel ?:)
There is a good example how you could buy coat of arms just having enough money. Or "Count Monte Cristo" by Duma where a simple guy Dantes buys by his fortune a title of a count (Hrabiego in Polish , if I am not mistaken).
My favourite book! However Edmunds countship over the island of Monte Cristo cannot be compared to Abdank which is an ancient coat of arms, also its documented that Chmielnicki was the son of a polish noble, namely Starosta of Czechryń so the entire point of purchasing the coat of arms is moot, the guy was born into polish nobility.
Sokrates, coats of arms could have been purchased or given by a king if you were a good fighter and did a lot for the crown or a good sucker as well. Your idea that it is something sacred, given by king Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, is preposterous at best. "It is documented" - what are these documents? You asked me "how does it feel", Sokrates. It feels nice to see Poles so anxious to make foreign heroes their own. You never answered me about Leonardo da Vinciewicz and Fridrich Nitszchewskij. I also read that Alexander the Great was actually born in Tarnow and was son of Mieszko l.
You never answered me about Leonardo da Vinciewicz and Fridrich Nitszchewskij. I also read that Alexander the Great was actually born in Tarnow and was son of Mieszko l.
stop it, I am rolling on the floor. Sokrates will not answer you. I am still waiting for my answer from yesterday. He is selective in his replies to say the least. LOL.
Sokrates, coats of arms could have been purchased or given by a king if you were a good fighter and did a lot for the crown or a good sucker as well. Your idea that it is something sacred, given by king Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, is preposterous at best. "It is documented" - what are these documents? You asked me "how does it feel", Sokrates. It feels nice to see Poles so anxious to make foreign heroes their own. You never answered me about Leonardo da Vinciewicz and Fridrich Nitszchewskij. I also read that Alexander the Great was actually born in Tarnow and was son of Mieszko l.
Ok i'll try to educate you since you apparently dont know your own history.
We KNOW where Chmielnicki came from and who his family was:
His father Michał Chmielnicki a polish noble and a direct courtier and subordinate of Hetman Żółkiewski coat of arms Abdank came with his family from the Greater Poland region together with related szlachta, there's records of Chmielnickis where they come from and how they were given goverment over Czechryń, his father was a polish noble living under Kraków from which he moved to become hetman Żółkiewskis courtier.
So now tell me how the hell does a polish noble suddenly become a "ukrainian".
Sokrates, stop it, don't make me laugh my pants off! Give me a source, some link , a trustworthy book or author where it says that his father was Polish. He belonged to a clan and could put a seal on certain letters (love letters), but that was it.
came with his family
?
his father was a polish noble living under Kraków
I talked to a Greek today, he said that Bohdan's father was born in Athens. By the way, Bohdan was baptized in Greek Orthodox church (notice word "greek" - that was why Greeks are now claiming Bohdan Chmielnicki to be second Alexander the Great).
Isn't it strange for a Polish (so fervent about religion - nothing wrong with when it is moderate) noble to baptize his son in a Ukrainian church + not leaving him with nobility title which was later granted to his son in 1659 ( 2 years after Chmel's death)?
Sokrates, the link you gave doesn't have anything saying about Bohdan's father at all. So, I am waiting you will give me something I can ponder over. Still explain why he was baptized in a Greek Orthodox church being born to "Polish parents" when "Orthodox Christianity was considered an inferior religion"? ( look at your link below:
Coat of arms from the link I found was given to 47 Lithuanian rodow bojarskich in 1413 w Horodle. pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unia_horodelska
Does it mean all of these families became Polish in one beautiful October evening? For the simple reason of getting a meaningless piece of a relic? So Sokrates, take it easy and accept the facts. Still I don't mind that you feel proud of a talented Ukrainian general. He is worth of admiration, at least at the battlefield.
Does it mean all of these families became Polish in one beautiful October evening?
No it means that those that had polish coats of arms were polish, there was a distinction between ruthenian coats of arms and polish ones, the Syrokomla/Abdank are old polish coats of arms and its very improbable that the fellow bought it.
Nathan is right. Original Polish nobility gave for Lithuanian elites the right to use our coat of arms. Lithuenias gave for Poland Ukriane and Poland helped Lithuanians in war against Russia. More or less it is how commonweath has been formed.
You can find some people who use my coat of arms and are origianly form Lithuanians.
Later elites in Ukraine and Lithuania have chosen Polish identity - locals started to call them Polish lords. (we are talking about 15-17 century).
Later Ukrianians murdered in revange for Polish lords in deep Ukriane ethnic Poles in Lwów.
I can't believe you're all fighting to claim Chmielnicki as your native son. In Jewish history he was considered a bloodthirsty butcher who massacred tens of thousands of Jews all over poland and ukraine. We curse his name. You'd both be better off denying any connection to him.
