UPA - Ukrainian Insurgent Army. How they killed poles in Volhynia (1943).

would you deny your connection to Israel with the present situation in Gaza. I can say that same thing about Jewish people now, but I will not since I can put in perspective, can you?

Being no expert in I'll leave the historical details to you guys. But I think you should know our perception of that period. I don't imagine Chmielnicki was a hero to the Poles either.

As far as what's happening here, the answer is no. I do not deny a connection to my own country. And I do not condemn my friends and neighbors in the army who help defend me from palestinian rockets and bombs. I thank them.

nobody claiming that he was but he had a significant role in the Ukrainian history.


I can see your point.

Of course he wasn't as long as he wasn't Pole and fought against Poles.

Rather Wisniowiecki is considered Polish hero.

Thank you Prince. Sokrates still can't overcome the fact that Chmelnickij was Ukrainian. He wants to have at least some link to a great general. Well, Sokrates, he had your coat of arms, be proud.


Do what you please, but I respect his military expertise and also the fact that was able to put a stamp in many countries' history that even Sokrates looks for connections. Chmelnickij was and is a Ukrainian hero and I don't give a crap what other nations think of him.


No we don't.


My pants are barely hanging on my hips.

How common was it for orthodox christians to attened a jesuitan college?

From the back of my head I remember that the historian Feliks Koneczny was claiming that Chmielnicki's father came to Ukraine from Masovia, and that even though Bogdan married a orthodox wife, he never actually was a member of greek orthodox church. I can't be bothered to look for other evidences though.


Naturally, the point of your view depends on the place where you sit. I'm not going to try deprive Chmelnickij of the title of an Ukrainian hero, as he surely is one. However I do feel that you are over-simplifying this conflict here by saying that the cossack uprisings were a polish/Ukrainian conflict. In my opinion it was more to do with the struggle between lords and their serfs. Remember that on a big part the ones that were against putting Cossacks on kings lands on a "soldiers law" and for making them "peasants" were ruthenian nobles. Yep, Chodkiewiczowie, Glebowiczowie, Kiszkowie, Sapiehowie, Dorohostajscy, Wojnowie, Wołowicze, Zienowiczowie, Pacowie, Chaleccy, Tyszkiewiczowie, Korsakowie, Chrebtowiczowie, Tryzny, Gornostajowie, Bokijowie, Myszkowie, Hojscy, Siemaszkowie, Gulewiczowie, Jarmolińscy, Czołhańscy, Kalinowscy, Kyrdejowie, Zahorowscy, Meleszkowie, Bohowitinowie, Pawłowiczowie, Sosnowscy, Skuminowie, Słuccy, Zasławscy, Zbarazscy, Wiśniewieccy, Sanguszkowie, Czortoryscy, Prońscy, Rużeńscy, Sołomiereccy, Gołowczyńscy, Kroszyńscy, Masalscy, Górscy, Sokolińscy, £ukomscy, Puzynowie, etc...

At the time he was treated as a rebel more than anything, back then the rebellion wasnt national, it was some subjects of the kingdom rebelling against the local rulers rather than the kingdom itself, the idea of independence came later.


Nathan there was NO UKRAINE at that time, Cossacks were a multinational political and social class, Chmielnicki was not even a classical Cossack he was a commonwealth noble, he was learning in a catholic school, he was wearing polish clothes and his father was a courtier of a polish noble, he spoke fluent polish and latin which were also his family languages as with all commonwealth nobles.

Yes i agree that Chmielnicki was an ukrainian hero as in "hero to the people of Ukraine" but he was not Ukrainian himself.

One Polish historian who doesn't have a vast support since all the materials I got say that it is not known.


Exactly


I agree it wasn't only issue between two different nations. It had some inner conflict as well: social, economical. Of course, I think many fought for better life and whoever is above him, be it Polish or Ukrainian, didn't matter. Ukrainian lords died from cossacks' sword too, no doubt. So I agree with you, Matyjasz.


Kievan Rus' preceded Ukraine as an empire since it comprised many nations. Later on Ukraine as a nation started to form on grounds of Kievan Rus' and its cultural, linguistical and religious traditions. Something like Ottoman empire and Turkey. You can't say that the latter one started to exist in 1921-22, right?


Of course, there were people like Moldovians, Bialorusy, Lithuanians, Polish, Germans etc. But agree that majority of them were Ukrainians. For me it does not actually matter. I like the fact that it was a multinational community.



Polish clothes? Since when working for a person of other nationality makes you one of the same nationality? I worked in US, am I American?


He spoke fluently Turkish. Was he a Turk as well? I speak Polish - am I a Pole?


Who was he? Mystery.

Well he came from somewhere obviously since the post occupied by his father was not inherited but granted.


The problem here Nathan is that Kievan Rus seized to exist as a result of Polish cultural influence, the kievan elites willingly embraced polish culture letting the ruthenian culture and civilization literally die out since it was not preserved.

The old Kievan Rus simply died and got replaced by polonized elites and illiterate masses, the only two connections were religion and ethnicity since both culture and civilization were discontinued in favor of polonisation.


Of course the majority of them were Ruthenian, the concept of ukrainian nation did not exist back then.


Ah but was turkish his first language ? Polish was.


He could be a Pole, a Lithuanian or a polonized Ruthenian however his fathers position as well as his coat of arms indicate with most likelyhood that they were a polish family who settled in Ukraine a generation or two earlier.

So no one knows - exactly as I said, Sokrates.


Polish culture had nothing to do with Kievan Rus. Tribes were running around what is now Poland when Kievan Rus' was a powerful country. Majop shock to Kievan Rus' were hord of Mongols which were ravaging through almost all Eurasian continent. Check history on Ghinghis Khan and his grandson and the rest of its dynasty. Lucky RP which never tasted Mongols. What RP got to offer when Kopernicus (Prussian, by the way) died of hunger unrecognized. Kievan Rus' was rich not only culturally and religiously.


you make me laugh - keep going. "civilization and culture were discontinued" - hahah- I know we where sitting on the trees and eating bananas when suddenly Polans came to bestow us with its so "rich culture" - haha.


For you it won't exist even if you are grilled on BBQ with spices. I already said to you about Italians , Germans etc., which according to you didn't exist till 19th century.


How he communicated with Cossacks then? Polish are not able to learn Ukrainian. (Sounds rude, all the Polish I know and there are more than 10 say that my language is Russian - hahah , so I even don't want to start thinking that you can learn if you don't believe). Moreover, show me where it states that his language was Polish


.Why are you keep on arguing when I proved to you that coat of arms he had was given as one of 47 coats of arms to Lithuanian bojars in 1413, October 2. Position and one of your father doesn't give you nationality, remember. If your father works as a construction worker in US, are you then automatically, American? Think, then talk.

No one is certain but there are indications that he came from Poland, we have his fathers name and surname ( which was originally Chmielnicki - polish ) as well as his coat of arms.

It is of course possible that he was natively ruthenian but its very unlikely given the context.
Actually yes it does, Kievan Rus fell mainly due to the faulty succession system after which it was taken over by polonized lithuanian elites and saw a major influx of polish settlers and clergy which ensured total polonization of the ruthenian nobility, by the 15 century the vast majority of the intellectuals of Ukraine were completely assimilated and had not a bit of ruthenian in them.


Kievan Rus was never a powerful country because it was very sparsely populated, granted it was quite strong and advanced but definitely not more advanced or very definitely not stronger than contemporary polish duchy and later kingdom on account of very very low population.


The only reason the mongols ever stopped was because of the death of Genghis Khan, it had nothing to do with any sort of resistance in Rus.


Oh but we did, read up on battle of Legnica ( which we lost incidentally ).


The same Kopernicus who defended Torun against Teutonic Knights and was polish as hell ?:)


Yes it was, i never said it wasnt.


On the contrary, i never claimed Ruthenians didnt have any culture or civilization or that it was inferior, polish culture had two things, it was much more attractive and much more dynamic, those traits do not mean that it was better simply that it would be adopted over the native culture.

Just look at current american culture how its adopted worldiwde despite it being well...shitty, our culture and civilization was not better, it was simply much much more dynamic therefore it replaced the old ruthenian culture.


I imagine he learned quite early on, given that he occupied the official post in the local administration he would have to.


Check professor Tarasiuk "Nowy czas" it contains quite an extensive work done on Chmielnicki, prof Stefan Tarasiuk is a Polish-Ukrainian so its hard to accuse him of bias.

And then suddenly one beautiful October morning Cossacks woke up and said: "Oh, we had a dream that we are Ukrainians and no Polish like were our fathers, grandfather etc. Let's fight ourselves and whatever happens will be history of a new country". Cool.


Show me why it was more advanced. Don't dodge my question this time.


I didn't argue about that, but there was resistence in Kievan Rus'. Read Battle of the Kalka river with Mstislav lll of Kijiv in 1223. We had a defeat this time. People in the Carpathian mountains region also fought with Mongols to stop their advances.


Pardon, didn't know about that. Interesting. This type of information I greatly appreciate.


He was Prussian and spoke German, so according to your theory he was German 100%.
Stop arguing about that. He fought Teutonic knights because it was acceptable at that time to fight oneself like Cossacks and Bohdan Chmelnickij were Polish and fought themselves. It was Ok then. We can't understand, but these were rules of the past - fight oneself and you will rule the world.


Yes, you said. Look at what you wrote.


What happened to culture and civilization? Maybe in some aspects it was polonized and only at the levels of state government, regular people guarded their culture, language, traditions and civilization more than you can think of. If it wasn't I wouldn't speak my language now, celebrate holidays, have my world view which is a lot different than yours.


Better choice of words this time, Sokrates. Personally I don't see what could people of that time see in your culture with the exception of Poland's central position in Europe that richened its infrastructure on many levels and that as well as posibility to get a good well-paid job. Since you couldn't get a job without sucking on Catholic church's plate many changed religion and with that their true identity. Regular people though saved our culture for future generations.


It is impossible for Polish noble to "lower" oneself to learning a "pagan" language. Let's stop debating Bohdan's nationality. He was Ukrainian and will always be for me like Copernicus is for you. It's pointless. He was very talented.

"He completed his schooling by 1620 and acquired a broad knowledge of world history and learned Polish and Latin. Later in addition to these languages he learned Turkish, Tatar, and French. Unlike many of the other Jesuit students, he did not embrace Roman Catholicism but remained Greek Orthodox" (/wiki/Bohdan_Khmelnytsky)

Ok, Sokrates, go to this link and verify my quotation. Bohdan learnt Polish in school with Latin. So he didn't speak this language before. Moreover, he never accepted Roman Catholicism even though he was probably barked after by religious schizophrenics. I think this time you'll shut up. But if you wish to argue more , don't mention historians (? -never found prof. Tarasiuk online) without first name and say what book contains this information, Sokrat.

Nathan how about you stop making things up ? Cossacks rebelled because Poland planned to make the register smaller and that was the only reason.


Read what i write it was more dynamic and it was more dynamic because it replaced the Kievan culture, if it wasnt more dynamic it wouldnt be able to do so its that simple.


Well apparently they saw something in it since they chose it over yours and allowed the ruthenian culture to die out in favor of polonization.


There was resistance everywhere, it doesnt mean that Kievan Rus could have done anything, at the time Mongols were pretty much unstoppable and a sparsely populated country like Kievan Rus couldnt really do much.

How many great writers, painters and poets does Ukraine have in comparison to other countries ? The fact is that your current culture is a mix of all the countries that stayed in Ukraine with some recycled old ruthenian traditions.

Well... be careful with that.
For one Gogol only the world would give up all our Sienkiewiczs and Konopnickas lol.

Technically Gogol was Russian writer because all his works were written in Russian.

"Technically" comrade Stalin was Russian thinker because all his works were written in Russian.

Gogol was at least partly polish but thats besides the point, the guy is a representative of the russian literature not ukrainian one, it doesnt matter where you come from if you contribute to another cultural heritage so i stand by my claim that Ukraine has very few great contributors.

Also yes, Gogol was ethnically part Ukrainian part Polish but he was and considered himself as a Russian.

Certainly. No matter where you were born but if you are writing in Russian then you are Russian.

Uh no, plenty of Poles were writing in Russian but they were born Poles and considered themselves Polish its not that simple, or am i English because i'm writing in english ?:)

No of course not, but only if you will create something worthwhile, then you will be Russian.

Even if i consider myself and my work Polish ?:)

Not quite true, dear Kostik.
If your force some ethnos to speak Russian does it make them Russians ?
Just your way of thinking, I know.
Books in Ukrainian in Gogol's times and later, were haunted like mad dogs in empire .

was Nabokov Russian or British, was Joseph Condrad British or Polish- hmmmmmm.....?


you are contradicting yourself. Where does it say that Gogol considered himself Russian.I would like to see a written proof of that. According to you differetnt rules apply to Polish writers than to Ukrainian ones. Interesting debate Sokrates, but I think you are better left alone talking to yourself. LOL.


you forgot to put a "wink" at the end;)

if you don't value opinions, CK, where is the dialogue? Borrka, for me, is a very educated and informed guy. Why ignore his opinion, why not discuss it instead?

What a bul*shit you all say ? Did you ever heard the ukrainian language, how it sound, its music? It is a crime against good style to talk on it! Even ukrainians prefer to conversate in Russian

I speak it, so yes I did.


where, according to whom, in your little world Kostia (Kalinka, Malinka was a great hit BTW)


well, how else can they converse with Russians, since Russians refuse to learn other languages;)????

Oh no miranda, my music passions are stretching farther then Russian folk music.

I am sure they do, however, you haven't answered my question

this one in particular, so I am looking forward to your answer.

While at it, here is something you might enjoy while relying to me:

No Kostik.
They are friendly people.
They use Russian only because of me but sooner or later they get tired lol.


Oh I see some poor Russian heart bleeding of jealousy !

Not at all because it is not true. They hate you and will kill alot of Poles at conveniet circumstances.