UPA - Ukrainian Insurgent Army. How they killed poles in Volhynia (1943).

Prince while i do not agree with the form of Easy_Terrans posts the fact is that UPA worked with Nazis extensively when it was not fighting them and that UPA in methods and ideology can easily be compared to the worst murderers of the Nazi regime.

I agree about this part of history but modern Ukraine isn't threat for Poland.

I highly appreciate your sample sincerity. With that kind of approach you can't blame Ruses with any sort of double standards, hypocrisy and claim for more or less friendly relationship.

Btw just to make things more clear and come up with any conclusion would you mind explaining what you meant by "De-Russification" term?

Do you wanna withdraw their national waymark, change their minds, cultural and spiritual values, force them to study Ukranian or Polish?


For the only sake of opposing to Russia. He has recently found an alike blockhead to spit up unfounded arguments with.


Because it's not in Polish Gov's interests to break ties with Ukraine. In fact they give a sh!t about none of those.

Ukrainians are not Russians. It is enought to ask most of Ukrianians about it. Their democratic govenment should decide about their future and geopolitical choices. They are not part of Russia.

Radio Free Europe



This was a debased and barbaric period of human history many atrocities were committed on all sides and all is inexcusable.

Well... did you ask? Or gazeta Wyborcza (sorry can't spell it,) napisala and you did believe for the only reason it was a Polish newspaper?


Your kiddin now who?


Who said they were except for your doppelganger?

Because Ukraine is our most important strategic partner, as the geopolitical reality will change Poland and Germany will come apart more and more and both we and Ukraine have absolutely the same long term interests in virtually every field and shitting on it even if it is historical truth is not wise, we should not let our past fuck up our future and thats exactly what all polish goverments and media are aware of.

There will come a time when Ukrainians mature enough to admit to such crimes but at this time they're a young nation that requires help, guidance and sincere partnership not dragging a bag of shit on their doorstep and telling them they made it.


Sasha while their goverment is bloody frackin oceans from democracy up untill the orange revolution it was a russian puppet, better a domestic bitch than some other powers bitch.


No but there exists a significant russian majority especially in and around Crimea, de-rusification does not work, from Ukrainian POV it would be most beneficial to use the nearest geopolitical upheaval and resettle them to Russia but thats all theories, there's lots of Russians living in Ukraine today.

Also in regards to UPA and Nazi Germany, in my opinion Nazi Germany responsibility was greater, Germany was an old and greatly developed culture with full civilizational awareness of what it was doing whereas Ukrainians were a young nation bordering on barbarism without ethical and moral awareness.

Poles have been a traditional elite of the region and much hatred and envy exploded, i do not agree nor do i justifiy UPA, they were thugs murderers and little more but at least they had their reasons and not enough civilizational and cultural spine to stop them.

Germans were adults fully knowing what they were doing, Ukrainians were just cruel children, thats a pretty big difference.

Sokrates, I didn't want even to mention your name, but again you keep on licking German boots like a whore. I am surprised there are no one except me to tell you that, but again you are proud to be German's pussy. Go ahead, sucker. I don't consider you a Pole, because I think Polish are proud of themselves and don't bend over like you to receive a load. So, yes, do whatever you are doing, but while doing it , don't talk it may hurt Germans.

Actually what i just said is that while UPA and Germans commited the same crimes the Germans were more guilty on account of greater awareness, if you want to be taken seriously you should stop being so emotional.

"Greater awareness"? you sick, boot-licker. German were greater aware of what? Explain awareness, be so kind.

Of course, Germans had a thriving civilization when Ukrainians were living in huts and plowing fields of polish nobles, Germans had well over 7 centuries of heritage before anyone in Ukraine even thought of himself as Ukrainian.

As such they had a far greater civilizational ethical and moral awareness than their ukrainian contemporaries at the time, Ukraine is a young country and culture or education were not actually in abundance prior to WW 2 which resulted in much of ukrainian nation being little more than illiterate former serfs, such people have greater capacity to blindly commit atrocities without understanding the full capacity of what they're doing.

Not much changed here? Nathan seems to be a bit...erm...slow in understanding...

"greater moral or ethical awareness" - what is it? being a human you need what? know where the stars are or the angles of a triangle? behave in a normal human way and don't be a piece of shit - do you need philosophy? Have you heard of Skovoroda, a great Ukrainian philosopher of 18th century. But does it matter? You think mothers in Ukraine told their children to be hateful, don't believe in God and kill your neighbors.

Well, I am educated ( at least by our current views), but if you kill my child, I would murder the whole village of your wives, children and men. So, does it help to be educated? Does it make me more tolerable to injustice? Judge yourself.

"culture and education was not in abundance":

1580 - bible printing began in Ukraine by Fedorov
1615 - Kyjevo-Mohylanska Academy, one of the oldest universities in Eastern Europe
1740 - 866 primary schools
Monasteries throughout Ukraine since its Christendom in 988 by Volodymyr the Great
Hetman Mazepa created universities in Ukraine at the end of 17th century.
What about churches and their educational ole in society? Do you know Sofia Church in Kyjiv? 1019 built of stone on place of a wooden one. This was a center and still remains of Orthodoxy in the world. And these are times of Mieszko l if I am not mistaken, your first king, right?

Umm....Nathan...Sokrates was actually trying to give you a way out...as in not being as bad as the really baddies, the Germans, you know? :)

Why are you protesting so much???

sorry but you are talking nonsense.Wiedzial, gdzie dwonili, ale nie wiedzial, w ktorym kosciele.


that is really strange comment from you. I am dissapointed, since most of your comments up to know very fairly well researched, or at least that what they seem to be.

Nathan seems to be on the right track here, but I am having a feeling that those fact will somehow be contributed to other nationalities judging by the state of mind of Sokrates.

As for education, I am Ukrainian and I am educated, so are most of the members of my family/ friends etc, so I guess it is time to give the folk tales spewed by misinformed people a break.

I will tell you "a way out". Each one of you even doesn't use his own name: One is using GERMAN kielbasa and the other - a Greek philosopher's name. Why do you like so much German toes? Why do you write nonsense and create hostility. Know that I don't have hatred to Poles in my heart. I respect your country and your culture. But because of these low conversations we have, some may find a lot of reasons to hate each other. And this will complicate the lives of our kids in the future. Do you want that? If this is what you are after - to blubber without any arguments, say so , be men. I wouldn't even bother to answer.

I explained what I meant and I still wonder...

Ivan was a Russian, not even a Rut


henian but a bloody ethnic Russian.
The first and only academy in Ukraine for about 80 years, never became a university and was not even close to being one of the oldest in Eatern Europe since Hungary, Novgorod principality, Lithuania, Poland and Moscow had academies and universities for quite a long time by then.


Uhuh and most of them run by Poles.


Ruthenian monastieries, not Ukrainian ones.


Very little, orthodox church was extremely insular.


You mean Mieszko who had several cities the size of Kiev under him by the end of his rule ?:)

Comparing the ruthenian culture which is only loosely connected with modern day Ukraine to Polish culture which has over 1000 years of continuity despite changing political circumstances isnt exactly helping your point.

That Ukraine is a young nation is nothing bad but the fact is that prior to WW 2 you did not have the intelectual elite that the old countries had, such elite is a thing that takes many generations, a developed society and equally developed traditions and education, Ukraine had none of this since Cossacks and Ruthenians can be connected only by religion and ethnicity, culture and civilization was always either Polish or Russian or whoever occupied you at that particular time, having little national identity your elites took on the customs of the local powers.

what is the difference according to you?


What? So Poland is a template for other cultures now? LOL.


the same can be said about Poland during the partition and other times of occupation - with the Soviet one included until 1989, so by saying the the Ukrainians are really a young nation, by comparison you are saying that Polish is not. Very clever but it is not gonna stand as a good argument. Is this the only way you can argue, by comparison, so in the end Poland does not look so bad???? Quite funny really.

Thank you.


Actually Kieven Rus was a well developed country, It's not that It has very much in common with Ukraine but still more than with any other nation.


God...

dig deeper, dig deeper.


:)

First time Russia got its official name under Peter l around the end of 17th century from the name of Kyjivka Rus'. Before that people of this country were called ruski, moscovites etc. Kijivska Rus is Ukrainian past with its kings, queens and dukes. Eventually russians took the name and adopted it, we had the other one - Ukrainians. First time this name is mentioned in 12th century. Your beloved Germans didn't call themselves Germans till 19th century. They didn't consider themselves as a nation till the 19th century. The same is about Poles. You were vassals of the king and you fought for him, not for your nationality. The same can be said about Italy which united from many kingdoms at the end of 19th century as well. To say that Ivan Fedorov was Russian is the same as to say that Kopernick was Polish. Did he write in Polish or old German? Did he live in Poland or Prussia? You see, it doesn't lead too anything.

Kijiv was built as a settlement in 5th century and grew constantly. Jaroslaw Mudryj married his daughters and sons into different European liaisons: French , Sweden (ones that I am aware of). He lived at the beginning of 1000. Will you have your daughters and sons in marriage with people living in huts and forests ( not that there is anything bad in it, but against the rules at that time).

Sokrates, write explanatory, or if you are a kid who doesn't like to pick up a book, say it.

You say "plowing fields of polish nobles" yet my family were plowing the fields, building homes, providing food for neighbors, schools built. You make it sound as if Ukrainians were slaves working the land vs. part of a growing, close society. Today the very home my Grandfather built is used by Ukraine as a school. Poland's short independent placement in the east to this day has Polish touch's. Orchards/wheat fields that were nonexsistant prior to 1920 seemed to be forgotten along with the neighbors that were concidered friends.

As for Soviets innocents in this, was it not Soviets that took the first Polish out of the area to Siberia, Katyn and then when the truth of crimes comes to light they quickly point at Ukraine, Nazi's and USA. I did not even mention 1932-33 and who aided Ukraine's people as the Soviets starved us to death.

Correct but still it wasnt quite as developed as the polish tribes at the time, neither was it connected with Ukraine, you could argue that they were ethnic Russians since at the time it was all Ruthenians, same cultural and religious pool.


No madan it cannot, Poland during partitions had already a firmly constituted national identity backed by tradition and history with nearly a millenium of continuity.


Not for other cultures, no but definitely for the Ukrainian culture, despite your claims modern day Ukraine is not a descendant of ancient Ruthenia, there is very little connection there.

Modern day Ukraine has its roots in Cossack uprisings in 17 century when the first local politically aware class emerged and even then these people didnt think of themselves as Ukrainians or Ruthenians but simply Cossacks, a political and social class tied to a region.

True Ukraine begins sometime in late 18 century and becomes the synthesis of Russian, Polish and a hint of old Ruthenian culture which was at the time nearly dead through massive asimilation of the upper classes into the local powers.


Read above, Kievan Rus was a completely different state the only a loose ethnic connection.

Miranda , I have a great respect to what you are doing here. With some German boot-lickers, like Sokrates, with whom it is difficul to argue because he has his brains on its tongue and not in his skull, it proves to be difficult. But to bring facts and discuss our problems on both sides of the border in order to know each other better is what this is all about. For kids it is a game, to show that they are something, to laugh. But because of people like you, Sokrat, many generations in the past died. You are talking of fields and serfs. I would better be a serf in chains beaten and tortured than king of your kingdom "well-educated and unsurpassed". I will freely speak my language and pray to God than ever think of other people in diminutive way you always do, Sokrates. It is pity and shame. Cossacks were not Ukrainians, Kijiws'ka Rus is not our ancestry - f* off, sick f*ck.

"Loose ethnic relation" - you ate my balls off - hhahaha.

You do realise that for example Bogdan Chmielnicki was an ethnic Pole ? Cossacks were a social and political class of the region, they came from all ethnic groups, Poles, Russians, Ruthenians ...


Obviously not since there is no real continuity between the two, its like Jews would claim that they're Sumerian just because they're connected to Sumers.

Also Nathan this is just an internet forum you're taking all this wayyyy too personaly.

it doesn't prove any of your point that for some reason Ukrainians were less worthy, that is of course it we are still using the comparison method:)


who were they connected with then?


hmmmmm......so it is a still a matter of argument, not facts then.


OK, so what? Why don't we use Christianity as a starting point then. Although that would not explain the level of civilization of either Ukraininas/Ruthenians/ or as you claim Russians. So according to you, Ukrainians just showed up in the 18 century on those lands then and are loosely connected to Ruthenians or Rus Kijowska? Interesting point but I am not covinced.


Modern day Ukraine has its roots in Cossack uprisings in 17 century when the first local politically aware class emerged and even then these people didnt think of themselves as Ukrainians or Ruthenians but simply Cossacks, a political and social class tied to a region.

[/quote]
sounds like a recipe for a chicken soup but not a a serious conversation on the history of Ukraine;). I think you need to do better than that if you want to convince intelligent people (including those uneducated Ukrainian surfs- as myself).


sure it was, since it was a long time ago, but claiming that the contemporary Ukraine is a totally separate entity with no cultural links not history is very far-fetched.


thank you but sometimes it is a pointless work since there are not too many people who like to form arguments based on facts, but resort to wishful thinking most of the time.


I agree. Sokrates has not shown too much understanding when it comes to Ukrainian issue, mind you some Poles still have the sentiments to get the Ukraine back but in a scope of things, I cannot see it happening any time soon.

Got to dash now..........

And you talk way too impersonnaly, no arguments, no facts. Bogdan was an ethnic Pole? What is this a joke? I knew Nitszche was an ethnic Pole as well as Leonardo da Vinci, but this one is new to me. Well, at least I know something that can be said of Poles - you are Roman Catholics (almost 100%). So, if Cossacks fought to protect their religion as well as many other irreputably important things - like FREEDOM, this means they couldn't be even close Polish. Cossacks are pure Ukrainians and I am proud of that, that these brave people were my grand-grand-grand fathers. Be jealous, because there is of what to be, Sokrates. Bisous.

Correct, he was born a son of Michał Chmielnicki of the Abdank family, how can you even discuss the history of your country without such basics ?


Actually Cossacks fought only to keep the Poles from decreasing the register.


So the polish peasants who started uprisings against polish nobles were also not polish because they fought for freedom ?:)

Polish peasants didn't fight for faith like Cossacks.
Leonardo da Vinciewicz and Frigosz Nitszchewkij were Poles. "Abdank" family? I think Chmelnyckyj was your beloved German. Yes, that's right.
You want to be a Cossack's descendant, don't you? my little friend, I knew it.
But I think Poland has many great heros itself to be proud of, Sokrates, just read it and find one for yourself. You can't do anything to who you are, just be yourself. Regards and bisous.