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Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?


Ironside 51 | 11,510  
15 Oct 2009 /  #181
So cut the crap of "Germans stole polish lands". Thank you!

Again about what lands exactly are we talking?

h and Ironside, better forget your fantasy brain games...you will get Lwow back when Germany get's Breslau and Danzig back.

You promise ?:p

If thats only fantasy games what do you care?....... and why you play along?

Danzig is not German town or to say it more clearly it should belong to Poland.
As for Breslau you lost all rights during last war .........as I don't claim Breslu to be unquestionably Polish.
I fail to see connection between those two issues.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #182
I fail to see connection between those two issues.

It's totally idiotic and moot discussion and I wonder how long this thread already has gone...

Danzig is not German town or to say it more clearly it should belong to Poland.

Well, so it is now and it will stay polish as will Breslau, facts of the history.
So it is with Lwow...which will stay Ukrainian.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #183
You don't believe honestly that in those territories Germans lived and thrived for 120 years only?

You mean in Poznań? The same ancestral capital where the tombs of some of our greatest rulers are? The same Poznań that was a part of Poland for 792 years before Germans took it?

Yep, untill the partitions Germans had absolutely no claim on it and were a minority in the region, on the same basis you could claim that Turks have claim to Berlin.

Should I show you the list of Danzig again with poets, scientists, famous people from back to 1400?

Two can play that game but it doesnt change the alliegiance of the city, who built it, who and when inhabited it, the city is Polish-German at best, more fitting would be a Polish city with a significant German heritage to it.

We could argue that the German majority made it a German city but the German majority was there for only about half of its existance and still did not stifle the Polish development of the city, then there's the case of political allegiance which for the most part was loosely or directly a part of Poland.

So if your claim is based on the fact that Germans bred like rabbits or that you built a church there i fear you'll find it difficult to argue with Turks about who's city Berlin is in about 30 years :)

What about Kopernikus? He was at least half german...

Absolutely, he's definitely half German, he was also fervently loyal to the Polish king and never in his life signed anything in other then Latin but what does it all have with Gdańsk' national and historical allegiance?

Based on your logic we should claim Chicago as historically ours.

You are kidding, don't you!

Arent you?

I fail to see connection between those two issues.

There's a pretty big connection between Lwów and Wrocław, we and Ukrainians are in the exact same position as Germans and us, amusingly most of Wrocław dwellers are descendants of the inhabitants of Lwów.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #184
Absolutely, he's definitely half German,

Well..according to your logic he was much to early for the last 120 years you allow the Germans!

Don't you see how ridiculous all these discussions are? You can't deny facts nor can we change what has happened.
What are you arguing about???

That is so yesteryear...

All these lands will be in the coming generations reworked by Poles AND Germans together anyhow...when Ukraine makes it into the EU Lwow will be easier to reach for Poles, if not then not.

Actually i'm losing in these kind of discussions!
If you get some satisfaction out of these d*ick fighting...your pleasure...

*takes helmet*
David_18 68 | 982  
15 Oct 2009 /  #185
Well, in the beginning you owned sh'it as Poles were late comer to these lands after Celts and Germanics! You stole it first!
See? Just in case you missed history class....no Poles, but Germans where now is Poland.

Did i hit a weak spot?

Don't want to make you cry but did you know that Berlin was actually an slavic settlement, and that your beloved Reichstag building was actually a property of Count Athanasius Raczynskis. Same goes to your Reich Chancellery that was owned by Prince Antoni Henryk Radziwiłł before it was purchased by your very own Otto von Bismarck.

Want me to Continue?

We can always talk about how most of the north and eastern territory of todays Germany were ruled by the slavic tribes untill the 20th century.

The link is just a piece of the cake il'e give you for now.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Mecklenburg
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #186
Don't want to make you cry but did you know that Berlin was actually an slavic settlement,

Actually a Germanic p*issed there first (after a Celt probably).
So please put your d*ick back into your pants...

Want me to Continue?

Umm...better not.
Or next you want to tell me that actually the Poles partitioned the Germans and not the other way around!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #187
Well..according to your logic he was much to early for the last 120 years you allow the Germans!

Kopernik was born in Thorn, today's Toruń,a historically Teutonic city thats been a part of Poland for only 300~ years, however we did not take it from Germany we took it from the Teutonic Order and i daresay they asked for it somewhat bad given that they tried to crusade the living snot out of us untill we crusaded right back at them.

I've been referring to Greater Poland region and Poznań which was in Poland for 792 years prior to Partitions and for 94 years of the XX century for a total of 890 years as part of Poland, do you claim that to be historically German?

If you get some satisfaction out of these d*ick fighting...your pleasure...

Not really, the point is that when everyone is satisfied in whats German and whats Polish etc, then it might become European, if i said what are the historical ethnical borders of Poland i'd **** a whole lot of Poles off:)
David_18 68 | 982  
15 Oct 2009 /  #188
Seems like someone got owned <walking away laughing>
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #189
do you claim that to be historically German?

You can't stop it, can't you...

Not really, the point is that when everyone is satisfied in whats German and whats Polish etc, then it might become European, if i said what are the historical ethnical borders of Poland i'd **** a whole lot of Poles off:)

Well, I thought so before for a long time too but I came to another conclusion over the years studying history.

I now doubt there will be ever one and only true point of view of history for all people. That is an illusion.
We need to accept that there ARE and always will be different view points. It just change to much from the where the people look on, in which time, in which political or cultural environment etc.

As long as we want to force our own viewpoint onto others so long it will be bad blood....
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
15 Oct 2009 /  #190
So it is with Lwow..

we'll see
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #191
Don't want to make you cry but did you know that Berlin was actually an slavic settlement

Sorry no, Berlin was originally inhabited by Halstat culture which is affiliated with Celts and Germans are to some degree the descendants of Celts.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
15 Oct 2009 /  #192
do you claim that to be historically German?

I guess what BB meant is that Polish and German history is largely interconnected. He thought that you were denying this fact; thus the example of Kopernikus.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #193
Absolutely, thats why i'm saying Gdańsk is Polish-German or German-Polish but its not a city one side built without the other however whenever i hear Danzig i feel compelled to stick a historical middle finger out.

You can't stop it, can't you...

Its 01:30 i'm out of movies, cant drink beer with my bloody throat, you try having a flu.

I now doubt there will be ever one and only true point of view of history for all people

Oh never, but Dresden and Warsaw say its better to fight over those things by the beer then in the trenches and thats definitely achievable.

As long as we want to force our own viewpoint onto others so long it will be bad blood....

Given that we have Russia, China and USA as big boys not being a unified continent will lead to other powers forcing their viewpoint down our throat.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #194
Its 01:30 i'm out of movies, cant drink beer with my bloody throat, you try having a flu.

That must suck! :(
(I just thought you were a tiny bit more cranky than usually)

but Dresden and Warsaw say its better to fight over those things by the beer

Ooooh...here I can agree heartily!
Too bad you can't enjoy my round of cool german beer...;)

Given that we have Russia, China and USA as big boys not being a unified continent will lead to other powers forcing their viewpoint down our throat.

An EU army would help the unifying and integrational process along I would think...*looks around for moderator*...Now I'm off topic!
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
15 Oct 2009 /  #195
I have to agree with Joe Ukrainians did not still Polish lands it was just return to rightful owners as Poland dominated Ukraine for centuries they build their cities but in large the villages remain Ukrainians. Polish nobility ware oppressing Ukrainians as it let to revolution of Chmielnicki, he was just fighting for his country.

Polish nobility ware short sighted as they abuse Ukrainian population for their immediate gain
if the nobility took different approach and granted rights to Ukrainians we would not be talking
about Ukrainians taking Polish land we would talk about how our forefather had vision on creating one unified nation but szlachta ware pigs at that time
.

You are correct...The question was 'Did Ukies Steal Polish Land?'...This is just a never ending rhetorical debate...The question of Polish-Ukrainian relations must be followed back to the 1600s to get a full understanding...I agree with our friend Crow, who many make fun of...He calls for Slavic unity and partnership...But you listen to these fools, you see why it won't happen in our lifetime...Slavs should stick together, and not play other nations games...And this is just what Iosef Pilsudski sought, but he ran out of time...A new federation of Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
15 Oct 2009 /  #196
There's a pretty big connection between Lwów and Wrocław, we and Ukrainians are in the exact same position as Germans and us,

Lwów after the war was almost intact - Wrocław was in ruins
Poland belonged to the camp of the winners of WWII - German lost and during the war were practicing atrocious activities
Ukrainian minority(or some part of it) started ethnic cleansing as award they were granted lands of their victims.
Soviet Union won the war but it was as well responsible for start of the war - Hitlers ally until 1941.
The only similarity I see is that things were decided by Stalin in both cases.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #197
German lost and during the war were practicing atrocious activities

Do atrocities committed by the other side justify atrocities committed by oneself? Just wondering.

>^..^<

M-G (break time)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
15 Oct 2009 /  #198
ious activities

Do atrocities committed by the other side justify atrocities committed by oneself?

In what way justify ?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #199
Ironside

Well, the Poles weren't really nice to the Germans in Wroclaw, Poznan and other cities right after the war, weren't they? They treated the Germans a bit like the Poles were treated by the Soviets in Lwow.

>^..^<

M-G (no matter what happened before, they were atrocities, any way you turn it)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
15 Oct 2009 /  #200
They treated the Germans a bit like the Poles were treated by the Soviets in Lwow.

you mean kick them out ? (don't understand Poznan in the equation)
well, at last they could go freely unlike Poles in Lwów - in most cases!
Ah and Germans on the territories incorporated into Germany usually families kicked out of they homes had between 1 - 2 hours to pack.
Considering that Germans were aggressors, and all they had done .......that ethnic cleansing were done according to plans made by the British, American and Russian - I fail to see your point!

From the moral point of view no atrocities are justified!
But they were committed by everyone during the war!

When you speak of atrocities you mean expulsion of population ?
Well mate its first time I can say that your way of thinking is "western" - when I said atrocities I meant mass murders and such.

I-S ( you really don't know what atrocities mean except of curse "holocaust")
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #201
They treated the Germans a bit like the Poles were treated by the Soviets in Lwow.

Except that post war Germans deserved it.

no matter what happened before, they were atrocities, any way you turn it

No they were not atrocities, Germans were not murdered by Poles at large (there might have been a few cases but not much) and just allowing these people to carry on with their lives as if nothing happened would be wrong, they supported an attempt to wipe us out, all of us.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #202
Ironside

I don't condemn Polish atrocities. I condenm ALL atrocities, committed by all parties in all places everywhere.

well, at last they could go freely unlike Poles in Lwów - in most cases!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II

Two wrongs don't make it right.

But anyway. It's the past. Learn from the past, enjoy today and look forward to a bright future. Too many ppl live in the past.

>^..^<

M-G (still a bit grumpy)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #203
Two wrongs don't make it right.

Actually yes, yes they do, its called just punishment and deserved consequences and they most definitely make things right.

I'm tired of all the hippy bull, i for one believe there's times when killing, expelling or inflicting suffering is justified, if someone skullfvcked your elderly mother while you watched you wouldnt play an understanding little bytch, its nice to preach if you're not affected, its also completely worthless.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
15 Oct 2009 /  #204
But anyway. It's the past. Learn from the past, enjoy today and look forward to a bright future. Too many ppl live in the past.

that what I'm doing - don't get me wrong from my posts!
But it doesn't mean that Lwów shouldn't belong to Poland:p

When you speak of atrocities you mean expulsion of population ?

lets make it clear ...

I said atrocities I meant mass murders and such.

still a bit grump

get some coffee and chocolate cake

I- S ( going to get more coffee )
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #205
But it doesn't mean that Lwów shouldn't belong to Poland:p

We're going to send you as a one man army to get it back.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #206
I'm tired of all the hippy bull, i for one believe there's times when killing, expelling or inflicting suffering is justified, if someone skullfvcked your elderly mother while you watched you wouldnt play an understanding little bytch, its nice to preach if you're not affected, its also completely worthless.

It takes a child to have revenge, it takes a man not to lower yourself to the tactics of your enemies. You call yourself smart, right? Funny that you couldn't think of that one.

>^..^<

M-G (grumpy)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #207
It takes a child to have revenge

Tell that to people who found their children frozen to death, tied together with their mothers to a road post, focking forum preacher.

it takes a man not to lower yourself to the tactics of your enemies.

If you found your parents or neighbours half burned in a ditch in a woods you'd say otherwise but then again you're as far from being a man as it can get, now seriously stop preaching.

You call yourself smart, right? Funny that you couldn't think of that one.

I also try not to be too much of a hypocrit, revenge is a perfectly understandable form of justice, in case of what happened to Germans post WW2 its hard to think of it in any other way then justice.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #208
You know, I'm getting so freaking tired of you constantly thinking you're so great and know everything and cursing and swearing at everybody who has a different opinion than you. You haven't got a clue what little rat you are in fact. If I were like you (and thank God I am not a little creature like you) I would kick and beat every German and every Dutch former National Socialist for killing over 50 ppl of my family. But my g/f is German, I have plenty of German friends, but I guess I am smarter than you, I have learned to forgive them for what happened in the past. Even my grandparents, although they never talked to the Germans again, learned their children that it's better to forgive (and never forget of course) than to resort to the same practices they did. And my grandfather was the sole survivor of his entire family. He never laid a hand on any German as he claimed it wouldn't bring his family back. So you tell me, is killing the Germans a way to get all the dead back? You f*cking tell me.

>^..^<

M-G (getting grumpier by the hour)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #209
Thats better, you sounded almost like a man with nuts, of course you're still a ***** but at least you got the point right, its satisfying to get back at people, especially if they put you down first :)

Now go preach peace, love and forgivness somewhere where they'll appreciate you.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #210
Sokrates

Why don't you just simply go and f*ck yourself? You might enjoy it as well as nobody else will.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

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