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Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?


southern 75 | 7,096  
15 Oct 2009 /  #211
In my opinion it is absurd for Poles to raise demands on Lvov since they lost it exactly in the same way and by the same decision Germans lost Wroclaw,Stettin and Gdansk.So any attempt to get it back,will bring the Germans back as well because if the former decision is taken on doubt then the whole decision should be reexamined.

I would not like to give Germans three cities to get only one.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
15 Oct 2009 /  #212
I would not like to give Germans three cities to get only one.

What about we simply undo the outcome of WW2? Poland and Germany both get their lost eastern territories back and everybody is happy. Or not...? ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #213
And Germany pays us the equivalent of their decade worth of GDP for rebuilding the regions? Sure!
southern 75 | 7,096  
15 Oct 2009 /  #214
Poland and Germany both get their lost eastern territories back and everybody is happy. Or not...? ;)

And Poland loses some of its most prosperous teritorries to get some sh1tholes with minorities.I don't think it is the best solution for Poland.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
15 Oct 2009 /  #215
And Germany pays us the equivalent of their decade worth of GDP for rebuilding the regions

Well, no. You get the provinces back that were "rebuilt" by the Soviets. Sounds fair... :)

I don't think it is the best solution for Poland.

Some may dream about having both the old eastern and the new western provinces?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #216
Well, no. You get the provinces back that were "rebuilt" by the Soviets. Sounds fair... :)

Yeah? Not really, we rebuilt ours, Soviets "rebuilt" theirs, there's a 20 years of development difference between the two.

Lower Silesia is not one of the richest regions because it was German but because we've dumped the elite of our nation here and they put a lot of work into bringing a totally ruined region into shape, on the other hand Ukrainians took over a well developed city and turned it into a dump.

But if Germans were ready to pay for what we've done with the place and we got Lwów and the money i'd be happy to bill them myself.

Some may dream about having both the old eastern and the new western provinces?

Have you seen what Ukrainians did to that region? Its a dump, we've got enough small dumps in Eastern Poland to want a big one to top the cake.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,173  
15 Oct 2009 /  #217
Well, in the beginning you owned sh'it as Poles were late comer to these lands after Celts and Germanics! You stole it first!

Well in your way of thinking Scandinavia should belong to Germany so

*Showing finger in the direction of BB*
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
15 Oct 2009 /  #218
But if Germans were ready to pay for what we've done with the place and we got Lwów and the money i'd be happy to bill them myself.

Seriously, what would you say: how attached is Poland to the territories in the west?

Have you seen what Ukrainians did to that region?

I've never been to the Ukraine, so I can't tell.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #219
Seriously, what would you say: how attached is Poland to the territories in the west?

Pretty much but if we got Lwów and a 10+ years of German gdp ... Thats a LOT of money.

Seriously though i dont think we'd be willing to do that, Wrocław got grown into Poland and the amount of work we did in Western Poland is tremendous, its rebuilt very near from scratch.

What you're proposing is to exchange something we built and rebuilt for years for something our neighbours kept ruining for just as long.

I've never been to the Ukraine, so I can't tell.

Poland is depending on a region 10-20 years behind the Western Europe, Ukraine is 30-50 years behind Poland and not really developing.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
15 Oct 2009 /  #220
What you're proposing is to exchange...

I know that it's only theoretical, but it's an interesting question. Well, maybe we don't even have to think about it after (or if) the Ukraine joins the EU.

Poland is depending on a region 10-20 years behind the Western Europe, Ukraine is 30-50 years behind Poland and not really developing

Whow, is it really THAT bad? What have they done the past 20 years?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #221
I know that it's only theoretical, but it's an interesting question.

That question could have been asked directly after WW2, right now when we spent two generations rebuilding and building up the region while our former territories remain a horrible mess thats just no longer a good trade.

Whow, is it really THAT bad? What have they done the past 20 years?

Not much, untill the Orange Revolution of 2004 Ukraine remained a full blown Soviet State with all the bad things that brings, compare the GDP, Ukraine has 10 milion people more then Poland and its GDP is about 55% of the Polish one and apparently decreasing.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
15 Oct 2009 /  #222
That question could have been asked directly after WW2...

Yup, makes sense. And besides: Germany couldn't handle another addition to its territory anyway, as they are still struggling to "incorporate" the former GDR. Not to mention the negative reaction of Germany's "friends" in the west and the Russians. I would love to see Britain and France complain like Thatcher did in 1989, though.

Not much...

Sounds like the Ukraine has to wait for a very long time before they are even considered candidates for the EU.
porzeczka - | 102  
16 Oct 2009 /  #223
Polish nobility ware oppressing Ukrainians as it let to revolution of Chmielnicki... Polish nobility ware short sighted as they abuse Ukrainian population for their immediate gainif the nobility took different approach and granted rights to Ukrainians

Ethnic Ukrainian and Polish nobility was oppressing ethnic Polish and Ukrainian peasants.
Ukrainian nobility converted to catholic faith/acquired elements of Polish culture mostly voluntarily.
In the Cossack Hetmanate, the situation of peasants was a little better than in Rzeczpospolita. Still, the fact remains that they only changed one master for another. They now worked for landlords - Cossack nobles/officers who possessed a huge landed estates - just like 'Polish' magnates before.

Chmielnicki, he was just fighting for his country

Initially he wasn't fighting for any country.

Porzeczka

A building can be designed/built/rebuilt/remodeled/renovated/founded...
As to 'designed', I've got a list of more than 40 buildings designed in Lviv by Polish architects (and there are more) - it seems like a small sample of Polish contribution (against those 4 or 5 buildings).
slo 1 | 52  
16 Oct 2009 /  #224
This ridiculous topic is full of Nazis! Stay out of it everyone if you feel civilized. Those Nazis can only destroy our good relations between Poland and Ukraine, which ment destroying those countries. But Nazis don't care. We, civilized people, Poles and Ukrainians, do.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Oct 2009 /  #225
This ridiculous topic is full of Nazis!

Whats Nazi? Claiming that Lwów is historically Polish or that Ukraine has a very small and dwindling economy?

Apart from Ironsides posts all arguments here are historically grounded, are you arguing that we should keep silent about the uncomfortable facts just so we could have good relations?

Off to work.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
16 Oct 2009 /  #226
slo

I wouldn't call them "Nazis", slo, although some of the participants tend to lean in that direction. I'd prefer to call some of the participants "Revisionists". It's a little more subtle label and although I think Revisionists are just as despicable, there's nothing you can do about these ppl, unfortunately. Just remember one thing: if you base your views on historical facts, it doesn't make those views less disgusting.

Anyhow, this discussion is only useful as an opportunity to explore the transferring of groups of ppl from one area to the other and all of it's consequences, methods et al, as everybody knows Lwów, Lviv, Lemberg, Leopolis is Ukrainian now and will never be Polish again. It doesn't matter if it used to be Polish. And besides, the fact that it was Polish is just a footnote in the greater context of history and for the worldstage of past eras it's not really relevant or interesting to know that it was. You might wanna start a thread about the fact that Vilnius used to be Polish too. Or the Finnish-Russian "Winter-War" of 1939-1940. Or the Polish - Ukrainian wars in the Post WW1-period.

>^..^<

M-G (coffeetime again)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694  
16 Oct 2009 /  #227
Actually I object to calling "Revisionism" as something inherently bad.

Especially in Europe mainstream history became so much politicized and biased during the wars (hot and cold) that much revisionism is needed to get things straight, to pull the beloved hidden skeletons out of the closets, to shake up comfortable lies who became truths just because they got repeated so often.

I admire historians who go up against the mainstream and get so much flak for it (and hope their researches and findings are sound).

Revisionism isn't a despicable evil but a necessary and good undertaking. Even if alone the discussions about it are a way forward...
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
16 Oct 2009 /  #228
Bratwurst Boy

I made the remark because unfortunately most of the Revisionist historians are trying to prove that there wasn't any Holocaust or at least try to diminish it to a small ocurrance. I do realise that some of the Revisionists are out to correct wrongs, but somehow they always turn out to be right-wing, denying it ever happened and so on. That's what led me to my statement. It's hats off to those Revisionists that work with a good cause in mind.

>^..^<

M-G (coffee and aspirin)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
16 Oct 2009 /  #229
This ridiculous topic is full of Nazis!

It make me laugh ...... wanna talk about Nazi lets talk about Ukraine ...

Apart from Ironsides posts all arguments here are historically grounded,

hey I feel excluded ....its no fair !
But seriously what are you blabbing about .......
I post my conclusion after thoughtful research and analysis of historical facts.
That you come to a different conclusion it has nothing to do with history or facts!

I wouldn't call them "Nazis", slo, although some of the participants tend to lean in that direction.

Is it me you talking about?

ust remember one thing: if you base your views on historical facts, it doesn't make those views less disgusting.

hey what is disgusting about my view ???

Lwów never will be Polish?
You can tall ?
Could you give me winning numbers for next lottery ?

coffee and aspirin)

good idea
by the way is that your cat?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
16 Oct 2009 /  #230
Is it me you talking about?

I am not talking about you. You know that.

hey what is disgusting about my view ???

Lwów never will be Polish?
You can tall ?
Could you give me winning numbers for next lottery ?

Because if you would steal Lwow back, then this could mean some war. Like I said before: *learn from the past - enjoy today - look forward to a bright future* Once Ukraine will enter the EU, you will be able to visit Lviv, Lwow, Lemberg or Leopolis as much as you would like without a Visa or passport. That seems good to me, wouldn't you think?

You're a bright kid, Iron and I like you. You have, unlike Joe and that retard Sokrates, generally a refreshing look on things, not skewed by racial or anti-semitic slurs, so don't feel so offended, ok? I will help you learn Dutch as it is hard enough a language to learn, especially when you're not from any of the other Germanic language-groups.

No, it's not my cat, unfortunately. Soon, I will have an avatar of my master on here.

>^..^<

M-G (likes Ironside - but very busy again today)
porzeczka - | 102  
16 Oct 2009 /  #231
This ridiculous topic is full of Nazis! Stay out of it everyone if you feel civilized. Those Nazis can only destroy our good relations between Poland and Ukraine, which ment destroying those countries. But Nazis don't care. We, civilized people, Poles and Ukrainians, do.

I think you are overreacting... As for me, I'm mostly discussing Lviv architecture. Does it make me a 'Nazi', 'uncivilized person' or a 'despicable revisionist'?

Ukrainians can't accept the Polishness of Lviv and are afraid of it – that speaks volumes about 'our good relations'. I have no problems with acknowledging that some Polish cities have more German than Polish influences.

You have rejected almost all Soviet propaganda, but the myth of 'Polish pany' and 'Polish oppressors' is still alive.
What I've written is true, confirmed by scholarly sources. Please tell me why you don't agree with it (if you don't agree).
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Oct 2009 /  #232
Because if you would steal Lwow back, then this could mean some war.

While i dont agree with Ironside Ukraine is an inherently unstable state, paradoxally when Poland resurrected itself in the 20s and was a stable strong country everyone kept yapping about how its a seasonal state.

Now when Ukraine got created, an extremely poor and largely unstable state the rhetoric fully applies, what happens if Ukraine falls apart and into a civil unrest? Thats not unlikely.

I'd say that Poland gaining control over its former territories is quite likely.
Borrka 37 | 594  
16 Oct 2009 /  #233
I'd say that Poland gaining control over its former territories is quite likely.

What for ?
Put aside the politics and moral aspects - we cannot afford such a move.

Look at Germany.
Once European champion of life standard, after reunification a second rank economy in sense of per capita income.
The burden of the ruined GDR was higher than expected.

In case of Poland and Ukraine it would have some disastrous impact on our weak economy.
Not to mention a new national conflict.

First when mayor of Lviv is ready to welcome Polish troops with salo and horilka we can think of some closer cooperation with them.
I repeat ... cooperation. and it will take al ot of time.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455  
16 Oct 2009 /  #234
what happens if Ukraine falls apart and into a civil unrest? Thats not unlikely.

Civil unrest is unlikely to happen in Western Ukraine - it's got decent agriculture and people won't go hungry there. They've also got the benefit of bordering several richer countries and really won't struggle - all they would have to do is scrap Customs checks and introduce simplified passport controls and money would pour in.

Eastern Ukraine might - but if the state did split, then you'd probably see a 'strong' leader take over the Eastern part and persue very pro-Russia policies, so no civil unrest there.

As I keep saying - Ukranians would rather starve to death than accept any sort of annexation by Poland.

Anyway, Poland is struggling to pay for the poor East as it is - how could they afford to incorporate even poorer territory?
Marek11111 9 | 816  
16 Oct 2009 /  #235
In my opinion economies of Poland and Ukraine will take time to develop as they got robed by communists for last fifty years, if you want to unite Poland and Ukraine that will take time as well but better idea would be to create a economical union with east Europe countries sort like E.U.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
16 Oct 2009 /  #236
I am not talking about you. You know that.

yes I know that:)

Once Ukraine will enter the EU,

if ever enters ,....:p

so don't feel so offended, ok?

I don't feel offended but not sure why you find something wrong in just cause, even if not entirely possible in foreseeable future to achieve?!

No, it's not my cat, unfortunately. Soon, I will have an avatar of my master on here.

I like cats and dogs !
I-S ( likes MareGaea too, but is confused by his stand on the Lwów issue)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
16 Oct 2009 /  #237
Lwów issue

Don't be confused. I will tell you what my viewpoint is on the Lwow issue: first of all, if Poland were to retrieve Lwow back, it would create a dangerous precendent: what if other countries, notably Germany, would say: hey, if those Poles get Lemberg back, then we want Breslau and Posen back! With all it's consequences.

Secondly, I would wish that the Poles were happy with what they have right now instead of lamenting about the past: a beautiful country with all variations in nature, a couple of great cities and so on.

Thirdly: the Ukraine is a sovereign country. You can't just go and say: hey, that city used to be ours, we want it back and if you don't give it to us, we will take it from you! You have any idea what the consequences of that might be?

And finally: I just repeat what my good (Jewish) grandmother used to say when asked if she felt resentment towards the Germand for killing her family: learn from the past, enjoy today and look forward to a bright future. It's better to forgive and never forget than it is to forget and never to forgive. She was a very wise woman, my grandmother. Too bad she died way too young.

Does this make my stand on things a bit clear?

>^..^<

M-G (has to hurry, seems to have a party - glad that he has many followers of his style, btw)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Oct 2009 /  #238
What for ?

Good question, generally to have buffer territory, notice i never said Poland will take anything from Ukraine, we do not have a geopolitical neccesity to do so, control over some Ukrainian land is likely though as we're the stabilizing force in the region in the event of an upheaval, that means only temporary governance though, not annexing stuff.

Civil unrest is unlikely to happen in Western Ukraine - it's got decent agriculture and people won't go hungry there.

People are hungry there now, decent agriculture means zip if your infrastructure and purchase-redistribution organisation suck.

then you'd probably see a 'strong' leader take over the Eastern part and persue very pro-Russia policies, so no civil unrest there.

Civil unrest equals civil war between the two sides prior to fragmentation.

Anyway, Poland is struggling to pay for the poor East as it is

No its not, the development of Eastern Poland is going along nicely (though it could go faster) however.

how could they afford to incorporate even poorer territory?

Thats a very good point, and i never said about incorporation or annexation, i'm merely saying that Belarus and Ukraine are prone to upheavals that Russia might or might not have resources to deal with, if it doesnt then the next best thing is Poland.

We could stabilize the region and make Slo and Nathan work as serfs on my farm, i'd ride around on a huge white horse shouting "faster you peasants".

if ever enters ,....:p

Unlikely, EU made it clear enough it doesnt want Ukraine in anytime soon, eventually we can probably squeeze them in but i wouldnt count on it in the next 20 - 30 years.

In my opinion economies of Poland and Ukraine will take time to develop as they got robed by communists for last fifty years

Dont draw an equal sign, Polish economy developed in an absolutely lighting speed in the last 20 years, the GDP grew a total of 80%, the economy of Ukraine is actually to shrink by a whooping 20% over the course of the next 2 years.

Given Ukrainian dependency on Russia and the potential split its going to get worse or stay the same for decades.
southern 75 | 7,096  
16 Oct 2009 /  #239
and make Slo and Nathan work as serfs on my farm, i'd ride around on a huge white horse shouting "faster you peasants".

Shouting or using the whip?
gumishu 11 | 5,857  
16 Oct 2009 /  #240
if it doesnt then the next best thing is Poland.

next best things will be EU in the eyes of most Belarussians and Ukrainians and not Poland - an educated guess

Thats a very good point, and i never said about incorporation or annexation, i'm merely saying that Belarus and Ukraine are prone to upheavals that Russia might or might not have resources to deal with, if it doesnt then the next best thing is Poland.


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