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Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?


George8600 10 | 636  
13 Oct 2009 /  #151
I attempted to read this whole thread and my brain burned out. Sheesh you people have over-analyzed the city more than the CIA would...
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
13 Oct 2009 /  #152
Me too disagree with this ahistorical approach - West-Ukrainian cities, churches, castles, whatever built by Ukrainians, Armenians (lol), Austrians, Greeks, "Martians" only not by Poles

Borrka, why are these lies? I haven't denied Polish role in L'viv's history. What I denied is 90% of the city built by Poles, which is a HUGE LIE. You have an example in photos I explained higher. Porzeczka tries to use words like "finished", "bought by a Pole later", "renovated by Polish", which sound a bit incorrect if you describe word "to build".

I bet 99% of Ukranians would rather be in poverty and independent than be part of a Polish state.

You wouldn't lose that bet. And yes, crisis hit us hard. So? We had worse crisis in our history, much worse. This one we will live through. Ukraine's major problem is not economy, it is politicians who slow down the reforms. But I don't think this will last long. Step by step we will be back.

My post would be extremely long if I wanted to name every building/monument

Well, you weren't able to say anything of value against my post and yes, Lviv is a city of cultural diversity: Ukrainian, Armenian, Polish, Austrian ... , not just Polish. It is ridiculous.

Militarily? Your own general said your tanks have 150 gallons of juice per machine and pilots fly 12 hours a year, we'd run over Ukraine in a week.

Why do you think we will copy German tactics and fight your cavalry with tanks? ;)

Regarding Ukrainian economy:
Exports: Russia 21.3%
Turkey 7.1%
Italy 6.4%
USA 4.1%
Imports: Russia 28.2%
Germany 11.7%
Poland 7.6%
China 7%
Turkmenistan 5.7%
Certainly, Russia is Ukraine's main economy partner, export-import wise. But as you can see there are some countries in Europe like Turkey and Italy which need our goods and Germany and your country have the place to sell their goods.

And Sokrates, who ever in this world was interested in the good of others if not with some profit for himself? If EU is not interested in Ukraine, there is always Near East, North Africa, Asia, South America. There is always someone who will love and be loved. Don't worry for Ukraine. Better watch your own back, because as far as I see, its bare.
Marek11111 9 | 816  
14 Oct 2009 /  #153
Ukraine did not still Polish land, Stalin did it then he still some German land and gave to Poles
and then he stole some German Land for him self, he also stole some Finish land some Japan Land and China Land he took over some nations and good thing U.S. did not border Russia he probably would try to still some land there.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
14 Oct 2009 /  #154
If EU is not interested in Ukraine, there is always Near East, North Africa, Asia, South America.

Oh please, you've got 3 potential geographical parnets, Poland, EU and Russia, everyone else can only offer loose economic ties or are you imagining that Brasil will become a valuable ally when on another hemisphere.

Better watch your own back, because as far as I see, its bare.

With a growing economy, stable and strong international position and slowly becoming one of the main countries in EU? Totally bare.

Why do you think we will copy German tactics and fight your cavalry with tanks? ;)

Your tanks have fuel enough to move 90 miles each, you wouldnt even make it to the battlefield.

By comparison Polish military reserves allow each tank to move 900 miles before expiration, German reserves allow them to move nearly 2000 miles, not to mention you have no more then 400 machines running, any EU country larger then 30 milion people could take over Ukraine in a week.

What I denied is 90% of the city built by Poles, which is a HUGE LIE.

Yeah so are all the pictures, all the houses, castles, palaces, we even built streets, there's architects names available you know, its 90% or more :)

Well, you weren't able to say anything of value against my post and yes, Lviv is a city of cultural diversity: Ukrainian, Armenian, Polish, Austrian ... , not just Polish. It is ridiculous.

Nathan Lwów was a Polish city, governed by Poles, built by Poles, developed by Poles.

For approximately 80% of its history Poles constituted between 50% and 55% population, the Ukrainians never ever exceeded 30% so yes Lwów was a city culturally diverse but undeniably Polish and Ukrainians played only a minor part in its history (Jews and Austrians had a much greater part by principle of urban and cultural developments).
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
14 Oct 2009 /  #155
I am tired to discuss this matter anymore. Let's everyone have or form her/his own opinion.

Your tanks have fuel enough to move 90 miles each, you wouldnt even make it to the battlefield.

By comparison Polish military reserves allow each tank to move 900 miles before expiration, German reserves allow them to move nearly 2000 miles, not to mention you have no more then 400 machines running, any EU country larger then 30 milion people could take over Ukraine in a week.

I told you that Ukraine won't fight your cavalry with tanks, we will also be on horses. So don't worry, we are fair.

Regarding one week to take Ukraine - haha - all NATO forces combined are not able to take over Afghanistan for years.
By the way, Ukraine produces nice tanks (T-84 OplotM) and anti-horse machinery, Poland will always be met with respect. ;) Oh well, enough jokes. I am leaving for a while. See you around Christmas (I hope). All the best to everyone.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
14 Oct 2009 /  #156
Regarding one week to take Ukraine - haha - all NATO forces combined are not able to take over Afghanistan for years.

Insurgence in a mountainous country as opposed to regular war in flat Ukraine?

By the way, Ukraine produces nice tanks (T-84 OplotM) and anti-horse machinery,

Yes, you made 2, then your MOD came out and basically that you can produce 2 T-84s yearly.

So in another 200-300 years you'll have enough modern tanks, of course thats assuming your army finally has money to keep more then 400 tanks running.

Merry Xmas i guess?
slo 1 | 52  
14 Oct 2009 /  #157
not by Poles who were the leading class there for more than 400 years

Poles were not leading class, szliachta and magnaty did, and Ukrainians were among the elite.

our very own state agencies know that and try fighting with Russian language use within Ukraine.

Wow! What you talking about? Ukraine invest huge money in education in Russian language in Ukraine. Recently some statistical table was presented by Ukrainian administration showing how much millions Ukraine spending on education in Russian.

In contrast to Russia spends $0 for education in Ukrainian (there is about 3 mlns Ukrainians live in Russia).

Maybe its true about the IQ chart of Europe...

You are a nazi.

I feel horrible posting under this ugly propaganda made up title. This is my last message here and I ask you to do the same in respect of Ukraine... and Polish government representing civilized people in Poland.
Borrka 37 | 594  
14 Oct 2009 /  #158
Poles were not leading class, szliachta and magnaty did, and Ukrainians were among the elite.

Exactly my point.
I used wrong (simplified) qualification - Jarema Wisniowiecki was a first generation Catholic, means Ukrainian.
So as a logical consequence we shouldn't use all this patriotic terminology and get rid of national liberation myths - it was of purely social character.

No Polish occupation, no national uprisings.
Just Peasants' Wars like German "Bauernkrieg".
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
14 Oct 2009 /  #159
Poles were not leading class, szliachta and magnaty did, and Ukrainians were among the elite.

Yeah, Polonized, Polish speaking Catholic Ukrainians whom you couldnt tell from a Pole that constituted maybe 20% of all of the ruling class, the rest of them were Polish.

You are a nazi.

Poland uber alles:)

I feel horrible posting under this ugly propaganda made up title. This is my last message here and I ask you to do the same in respect of Ukraine... and Polish government representing civilized people in Poland.

Nah we're going to invade you when we get bored and take Lwów again.

Just Peasants' Wars like German "Bauernkrieg".

More or less, yeah.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
14 Oct 2009 /  #160
Poles were not leading class, szliachta and magnaty did, and Ukrainians were among the elite.

Poles were leading class in the terms of culture, and in Lwów people with education automatically assumed Polish identity till about 1850s.

Ukraine is young nation and even youngest state (1990).
Even if one agree that there is connection between XVII/XVIII century and present day country, it doesn't change a fact that Ukrainian state doesn't existed before XX century.

What more its present borders are due to being borders of Soviet Union, there not ant reason at all to treat them as "natural " borders of Ukraine.

Further more Lwów should belong to Poland.
Its obvious.

Polish government representing civilized people in Poland.

Polish government represent idiots ....if anybody ...
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
14 Oct 2009 /  #161
My ancestors used to live in what is now Ukraine, but used to be southeastern Poland. My family considers themselves Polish and not Ukrainian. I was just wondering about what others are feeling. I'm not saying that I was indoctrinated with hate against Ukies, but from what I've heard, Poland should have legally gotten a little more out of the deal. Apparently, though, Poles just don't care about it and are happy to have a denuclearized nieghbor on the eastern border.

Ukies stole no 'Polish' land...Are you referring back to the Polish-Lithuanian federation?...Then you must read about it and put things into context...At this time, the Polish 'szchlata' or landlords, or swinje, rode rough-shod over our Ukie cousins...Landlords charged Ukie peasants high rents and took much tribute from them...The szchlata used Khazars as middle men and tax/rent collectors, and also gave the Khazars exclusive rights to distill vodka/whiskey and sell it...This was an unholy alliance between Polish landed gentry and the Roman church and Khazar Jews...Ukies were oppressed, and in many cases pressured or forced to give up their ties to the Orthodox church...The whole situation culminated in the so-called 'Chmielnicki Rebellion', when Bolan Chmielnicki, Ukie chief, was betrayed one final time by the szchlata and the Polish Sjem...Poles promised Chmielnicki a degree of Ukie autonomy, and freedom from Khazar middle-men and liquor merchants...But, in 1648, or so, the Sjem renegged on it's promises, and Chmielnicki joined forces with Tartars...This was the beginning of the end of the Polish-Lithuanian federation...A sad tale.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
14 Oct 2009 /  #162
swinje

How about you shut the feck up, some of us used to live there, i dont consider my grandparents to be pigs you twat.

I'm not even going to adress the remained of bull you wrote, you need to be beaten to death with a sock full of mashed glass for butchering our history with this post.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
14 Oct 2009 /  #163
Why so upset?...The Polish landlords of that time were pigs,exploiting fellow Slavs for profit, but not wanting to dirty their own hands, so they used middle men...Ukies said no more...This is historic fact...What is the problem here?...Read this for some perspective:

culturewars.com/2003/RevolutionaryJew.html
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
14 Oct 2009 /  #164
What is the problem here?.

Your ignorance!

We are talking about Lwów and area, not about Ukraine from XVI and XVII when most of the landlords were Ruthenian or of Ruthenia origin and regardless they involvment with Jewish middle men it has nothing to do with just and honorable quest to rescue Lwów.
Marek11111 9 | 816  
14 Oct 2009 /  #165
I have to agree with Joe Ukrainians did not still Polish lands it was just return to rightful owners as Poland dominated Ukraine for centuries they build their cities but in large the villages remain Ukrainians. Polish nobility ware oppressing Ukrainians as it let to revolution of

Chmielnicki, he was just fighting for his country.
Polish nobility ware short sighted as they abuse Ukrainian population for their immediate gain
if the nobility took different approach and granted rights to Ukrainians we would not be talking
about Ukrainians taking Polish land we would talk about how our forefather had vision on creating one unified nation but szlachta ware pigs at that time.
David_18 68 | 982  
14 Oct 2009 /  #166
culturewars.com/2003/RevolutionaryJew.html

The link was indeed interesting.

Poles were not leading class, szliachta and magnaty did, and Ukrainians were among the elite.

Maybe all of them weren't "pure breeded poles". But they were for sure poles since they lived in Poland and spoke and wrote in polish, or am i wrong?

Borrka, why are these lies? I haven't denied Polish role in L'viv's history. What I denied is 90% of the city built by Poles,

True if you mean the buildings built by the soviets (and later ukraine ) from 1945-2009 aren't polish, but the rest are.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
14 Oct 2009 /  #167
Read this for some perspective

After clicking on the link and seeing the header of the piece of text, I didn't want to read any further, yet I did. And of course it came down to the same. But then I read the part of the Jews in Spain (and presumably Portugal as well). Hm, interesting. You need to change your perspective a little, Joe, it's getting a bit monotonous. I don't hear anything about Torquemada for that matter. Just read this:

Poland after WW2

Now, let's have a look at the ethnic composition:

So it's clear that Poles were a minority in the territoria annexed by the Soviets, except in the Lithuanian part, where it was 50/50. On the other hand, they were a minority too in the territoria they annexed from Germany. In fact Poles were only a majority in the land without the lands annexed by the Soviets AND without the lands they annexed from Germany.

>^..^<

M-G (just observing)

.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
14 Oct 2009 /  #168
it was just return to rightful owners

you are an ignorant cocksucker and to hell with you

Chmielnicki

he was polish nobility you moron .....

And when do you get into your thick skull that Lwów and area belonged to Poland since 1267.
And Ukraine from 1569, so we are talking about different realities here lady's!

So it's clear that Poles were a minority in the territoria annexed by the Soviets.

lets pick country with minorities and focus on the area where such minority is majority - this is a really strenuous thinking to justify robbery. (just commenting, as for my Dutch is not progressing :( )
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
14 Oct 2009 /  #169
lets pick country with minorities and focus on the area where such minority is majority - this is a really strenuous thinking to justify robbery.

I was just observing the map, Iron, nothing more. I don't justify robbery. But didn't you guys annex some territory from Germany as well?

as for my Dutch is not progressing :(

That would depress me too. If you need some help, drop me a line, I'd be glad to lend you a helping hand. But you have to ask :)

>^..^<

M-G (always glad to help)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #170
But didn't you guys annex some territory from Germany as well?

You mean that territory that Germans took from us 100 years before? No we did not :)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
15 Oct 2009 /  #171
But didn't you guys annex some territory from Germany as well?

whats of it?

you have to ask

If I'll need help I'll ask you! Thank you :)
David_18 68 | 982  
15 Oct 2009 /  #172
I was just observing the map, Iron, nothing more. I don't justify robbery. But didn't you guys annex some territory from Germany as well?

Yes it is true that Poland annexed some eastern parts of germany. But in historical terms these lands belonged to the poles for centuries.

Aloot of people seems to forget that the piast line ruled this part for centuries.

If you want to learn more about Silesian history and the Silesian Piasts check the link.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Piasts
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #173
But in historical terms these lands belonged to the poles for centuries.

Well, in the beginning you owned sh'it as Poles were late comer to these lands after Celts and Germanics! You stole it first!
See? Just in case you missed history class....no Poles, but Germans where now is Poland.



But when a people workes, builds and lives in these lands for centuries it has a claim on it...in these lands it's both, Poles and Germans.

So cut the crap of "Germans stole polish lands". Thank you!

Oh and Ironside, better forget your fantasy brain games...you will get Lwow back when Germany get's Breslau and Danzig back.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #174
So, if the Netherlands moved into Belgium and annex the entire country as well as the parts of France and Germany that speak Dutch, it wouldn't be an issue then as these grounds historically belonged to the Low Countries? Hey, that creates new possibilities!

Edit: Bratwurst! Give us back our grounds! Now! (and while you're at it, you might as well give us back all the bicycles you stole from us!)

:))))))

Looking at your map I see that NL can actually claim back grounds all the way to Bavaria...Start giving it back to us, Bratwurst, I will put you in charge!

:))

>^..^<

M-G (Groot Nederlandsche Gedachte - Greater Netherlandish Idea)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #175
Edit: Bratwurst! Give us back our grounds! (and while you're at it, you might as well give us back all the bicycles you stole from us)

Rather tell the folks here more about the dutch hymn...;)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
15 Oct 2009 /  #176
Bratwurst Boy

You mean the part where Wilhelmus of Orange honours the King of Spain? Or that other part?

:)

>^..^<

M-G (puzzled)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #177
Nee...that part where he sings he is of german blood....
(if that isn't an invitation for invasion then what is?)

The bicycles stay in the family anyhow...:)

William of Nassau, scion
Of an old Germanic line,
I dedicate undying
Faith to this land of mine.
A prince Of Orange,
I am, undaunted ever free,
To the king of Spain I've granted
A lifelong loyalty.

humms
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
15 Oct 2009 /  #178
Yes it is true that Poland annexed some eastern parts of germany. But in historical terms these lands belonged to the poles for centuries.

This sounds like the old Polish communist propaganda crap to justify the annexation of the German provinces in the east. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories for details. Better call it a compensation (or a "gift" by Stalin) for the lost Polish territory in the east.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
15 Oct 2009 /  #179
Well, in the beginning you owned sh'it as Poles were late comer

Do you mean Poznań or Gdańsk? Both established by us?

were late comer to these lands after Celts and Germanics!

Yet it was us who built cities there, not Germanics and Celts, does it mean that the awesome Germanic tribes were *gasp* NOT superior civilisationaly to the lowly Poles?:)

So when a people workes, builds and lives in these lands for centuries it has a claim on it...

Thats ok then, you lived, worked and built (though not that much) in Greater Poland for exactly 127 years, thats not "centuries" and so its still ours by right:)

in these lands it's both, Poles and Germans.

Ah that depends, Greater Poland is a purely Polish region and Germans had jack crap to do with it, Gdańsk is definitely Polish-German heritage and Wrocław more German then Polish.

get's Breslau and Danzig back.

You mean the same Danzig where Poles had the town hall built? :) No claim on Breslau but all that Danziging is not justified, why would a German city have designated residence for Polish monarchs? Or a town hall ordered by a Polish king?

I try to avoid quoting wiki but its accurate in this case:

Altogether combining the number of years, the city was under rule of Poland for 641 years, under the rule of Teutonic Order for 158 years, 125 years as part of Prussia and later Germany, 29 years of its history are marked by the status of a free city, and 6 years under the occupation of Nazi Germany until it returned to Poland again in 1945.

As for annexing German territories.

It was done by Stalin and the bugger left us with no choice, we had hundreds of thousands of people from Lwów and surrounding areas and nowhere to stuff them and here's a city, a ruined city but a city, its not like we could say "no" so Poland annexed bugger , it was Stalin and Russia.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
15 Oct 2009 /  #180
You don't believe honestly that in those territories Germans lived and thrived for 120 years only?
Should I show you the list of Danzig again with poets, scientists, famous people from back to 1400?
What about Kopernikus? Your so called most famous polish son was at least half german...

You are kidding, don't you!

You know tolerance and the will to work together has to go both ways. When one part only always tries to downtalk the other and to deny their shared past that bears no positive future at all. I can play that game to!

The borders changed, nationstates developed, war and peace interchanged but in these lands have ALWAYS Poles lived besides Germans! Even before there was a polish king or a prussian king or whatever...

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