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IS "MY Z BRATEM" OK FOR "MY BROTHER AND I"?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
18 Dec 2008 /  #1
In Russian "мы с братом" (my s bratom) I believe is the normal way of saying "me and my brother" (proper: "my brother and I"), but I wonder if in Polish trying to convey that menaing with "my z bratem" is substandard, dialectic or regarded as a russicism. From an English strandpoint it would suggest at least three people: MY (WE -- the speaker and at least one other person) and BRAT (the brother), however in Slavonic parlance it means just the two siblings. Someone once told me this was substandard (nieliteracka polszczyzna).
Guest  
18 Dec 2008 /  #2
Or ever better: ja i mój brat.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
18 Dec 2008 /  #3
ja i moim bratem. (this is my Polish incidentally, not sure if it is correct, lol)

The correct way is, 'my brother and I' in English.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
18 Dec 2008 /  #4
yes, my z bratem means we with our bro but this could be nieliteracki way of polish.
Michal2 - | 78  
18 Dec 2008 /  #5
(proper: "my brother and I"), but I wonder if in Polish trying to convey that menaing with "my z bratem" is substandard, dialectic or regarded

No, this is poor grammar as it should be my brother and me in correct English. Ja jestem z moim bratem would be one way of saying this in Polish but there are others too. What about Mój brat i ja?
loco polaco 3 | 353  
18 Dec 2008 /  #6
my brother and me

you and me or you and i, michal?
Michal2 - | 78  
18 Dec 2008 /  #7
You and me you and I is bad grammar.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
18 Dec 2008 /  #8
you and I is bad grammar.

you definitely ought to check that again mr as you're off the mark just a tad. i hear this all the time from native speakers as most get this wrong all the time.
mafketis 23 | 7,823  
18 Dec 2008 /  #9
I've never heard "my z bratem" though I have heard "ja z bratem"

I have the idea that "(mój) brat i ja" is pretty common too (more often without the unnecessary 'mój')

With verbs "Z bratem rozmawialismy" seems far more common than "rozmawiałem z bratem" (which makes the conversation sound one-sided).
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
18 Dec 2008 /  #10
You and I, we were meant to be together.

Tell me Michał, what is wrong with that? As a grammatical construct I mean
osiol 55 | 3,922  
18 Dec 2008 /  #11
you and I is bad grammar

Wrong. "You and I" is correct. "You and me" is not... kind of! I prefer "thee and me" anyway.

Someone is talking to you and me. (I'm nopw not so sure this one is correct but it probably should be)
You and I are talking. (This is definitely correct)
mafketis 23 | 7,823  
18 Dec 2008 /  #12
Time for the linguist to weigh in.

In (Standard American) English.

Me and my brother went to the movies.
My brother and I went to the movies.

are both fine. The first is considerably more informal than the second (I wouldn't use the first in a job interview but I'd use it with co-workers once I have the job).

My brother and me went to the movies.
I and my brother went to the movies.

are both odd (I think the first is more acceptable than the second which sounds very unnatural though it might be okay somewhere or other).

They talked to me and my brother.
They talked to my brother and me.

Both fine, the second maybe a little more formal but not much.

They talked to my brother and I.

I wouldn't say this and I don't like it, but it's okay in informal conversation. Again avoid in job interviews or any other context where you're speaking with someone more important than you.

They talked to I and my brother.

Ack! wrong! Can't imagine anyone using this under any circumstance.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
18 Dec 2008 /  #13
In summary, there is flexibility ;)
mafketis 23 | 7,823  
18 Dec 2008 /  #14
But not anarchy!
loco polaco 3 | 353  
18 Dec 2008 /  #15
Someone is talking to you and me. (I'm nopw not so sure this one is correct but it probably should be)

yes, subject of an adjective.

My brother and me went to the movies.

not correct

They talked to my brother and me.

again, not correct.

They talked to my brother and I.

actually for the first time, correct.

osiol is right.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
18 Dec 2008 /  #16
In summary, there is flexibility ;)

To whom have you written that?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
18 Dec 2008 /  #17
They talked to my brother and me?

Let's assume it's a police investigation type scenario. First, they talked to my brother, and then they talked to me. This would be better.

Even my American friend said that he wouldn't use 'my brother and me went to the movies'. Loosely, it works I guess.

I wrote it to the Lord above, Osioł
krakow1 3 | 55  
18 Dec 2008 /  #18
They talked to my brother and I.

I wouldn't say this and I don't like it, but it's okay in informal conversation. Again avoid in job interviews or any other context where you're speaking with someone more important than you.

You are joking arn't you? This should be used moreso in formal conversations than in .informal conversations, infact is should be used all the time because it is correct english
mafketis 23 | 7,823  
18 Dec 2008 /  #19
krakow1,

The rule in traditional grammar is that the form should be "to my brother and me" because you use 'me' after a preposition (to).

To decide whether to use "me" or "I" in expressions that use 'and' drop everything but I/me and it will be clear.

They talked to (my brother and) me.

(Surely you wouldn't say: They talked to I.)

(My brother and) I went to the movies.

But usage is changing now. What seems to be happening is a switch from the old rule (as detailed above) to a new rule:

use 'me' before 'and'
use 'I' after 'and'.

Actual usage for many people is a combination of the old rule and the new rule.

Someone is talking to you and me. (I'm nopw not so sure this one is correct but it probably should be)

yes, subject of an adjective.

1. Adjectives don't have subjects in English.
2. There is no adjective in the sentence "Someone is talking to you and me."
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
18 Dec 2008 /  #20
Poles often mistake this.

For example, he is a gay or he is an unemployed. At some level, it looks correct. Better is he is gay or he is a gay man. The same with unemployed.

A dinner is another one. You eat dinner, not a dinner, logical as it is.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
18 Dec 2008 /  #21
a gay

I wish the words "only" and "village" didn't spring to mind.
mafketis 23 | 7,823  
18 Dec 2008 /  #22
"He's a gay." is perfectly grammatical, it's just not idiomatic, like saying "on jest homoseksualny" in Polish (again grammatical but not idiomatic).

Interestingly "he's a gay" but not *"she's a gay" but "she's gay" is fine.

Basically more often than not Polish likes to describe people with nouns when English prefers adjectives "Jestem Polakiem" or "Jestem Polką" vs "I'm Polish".

Dinner is different and I'm not thinking clearly enough right now to explain it (I think there's a name for that kind of article-less noun but it escapes me).

unavailable for comment:

dafffyd

I was going to post this seprately with a quote but the stoooopid double positng rules prevented that.
krakow1 3 | 55  
19 Dec 2008 /  #23
The rule in traditional grammar

Yes I agree traditional grammer and post- traumatic stress disorder grammar, do carry certain endings after prepositions, because of the conditions they have had to endure, and changes are inevitable. However, this does not change the fact that that my friend and I will meet, as usual on Friday.
mafketis 23 | 7,823  
19 Dec 2008 /  #24
However, this does not change the fact that that my friend and I will meet, as usual on Friday.

Yes, that is the traditional correct form, but

"They'll meet my friend and I" isn't.
krakow1 3 | 55  
19 Dec 2008 /  #25
"They'll meet my friend and I" isn't.

Absolutely, I agree totally, this is what I suggested earlier.This form or grammar is of a sub-standard form, coupled with anxiety disorder, and possible scizo-parables otherwise non-specific, as outlined by the DSM- manual 2002
benszymanski 8 | 465  
19 Dec 2008 /  #26
It quite simply comes down to:

I = nominative.
me = accusative.

The confusion is because:

you = nominative and accussative

so people start to get confused about whether to use "I" or "me" in sentences combined with "you".

@mafketis:
Would you say "me went to the movies"?
No, of course not, so how can it possibly be correct to say "Me and my brother went to the movies."?
Even though you hear this all the time it's not correct...
But you specified American English, so if you say that is the case with American English versus English as spoken in the UK then I will trust you (with a sceptical smile though) :-)
mafketis 23 | 7,823  
19 Dec 2008 /  #27
benszymanski,

I only mentioned the traditional rules to bury them (for a linguist 'correct' means 'consistently used spontaneously by native speakers', for traditional grammarians 'correct' means 'a rule written in a book'.)

Most of the time in everyday speech, Americans say:

I went to the movies.

and

Me and my brother went to the movies.

if they're being extra formal, maybe

My brother and I went to the movies.

They don't say

My brother and me went to the movies.

or

I and my brother went to the movies.

The rules need to be written out of the facts of usage.
benszymanski 8 | 465  
20 Dec 2008 /  #28
I am just surprised that you said both forms "were fine" and even more so to read that you yourself say you sometimes also use the second.

To my ears, the "me" form in the nominative sounds just as painful as "me went to the movies" and I am surprised an educated person would use it.

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