Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / History  % width 489

World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World


Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #121
It isn't that part what is funny but rather the excessive usage of some Poles of the word "germanized".

I think you don't even know what that means...alone the image:
"Hey...I don't like it here anymore I'm leaving...voila now I'm germanized!"

What do you think is needed for a proper "germanizing"? A passport? 3 words in german???
A whole town changes hands and *snaps fingers* get's "germanized" whatever that means???
LOL
(It's nearly as funny as when Crow says Germans are germanized Slavs - still not saying who were these mysterious original "germanizers")

I think you really have no idea about this long, and voluntarily process!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #122
"germanized".

Bringing in Germans into a region that previously was dominated by another ethnicity, in this case Poles with the express intention of making Germans a majority in the region, german colonization aka Germanization.

To be specific Gdańsk became German as a part of the two phase process, first the Teutonic Knights butchered the Polish population and then a colonizing effort was made and still more than half of the inhabitants were Polish, by the period of the Prussian kingdom further germanizing efforts were made by making life difficult for Poles administratively.

I think you really have no idea about this long, and voluntarily process!

BB i genuinely like you and i'm opposed to some more radical views about Germans but sometimes you're trying to twist history so it fits your view.

Prussia was actively repressing all things Polish, you could get far in Prussia IF you assimilated, as a Pole you had no future, this is not voluntary, neither was the massacre of the original population in the 14 century by the Teutons.

Gdańsk in 1939 was a result of long term agressive efforts to kill, evict or forcefully assimilate what was once a Polish majority so i'm rather suprised when i hear that Gdańsk was a natively German city.

It was conquered territory which you held by force of arms and claims to ethnic majority which you yourself installed in a prolonged brutal process, pretty much the same as Wroclaw or Poznan.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #123
"Bringing in Germans into a region that previously was dominated by another ethnicity, in this case Poles with the express intention of making Germans a majority in the region, german colonization aka Germanization."

Were the Poles expelled?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gdansk

Ca. 1235 the settlement had some 2,000 inhabitants and was granted Lübeck city rights by Swantopolk II. Merchants from the Hanseatic cities of Lübeck and Bremen began to settle in greater numbers. Officially chartered as a city in 1224 as Dantzike, it rose to become one of the more important trading and fishing ports along the Baltic Sea coast.

The city and surrounding areas had already been heavily Germanized[citation needed] due to the invitation made to German settlers by the Slavic rulers[citation needed], and due to the increase in trade with German and Dutch port

How cruel of them!

Prussia was actively repressing all things Polish,

Did they expell the Poles???

Gdańsk in 1939 was a result of long term agressive efforts to kill, evict or forcefully assimilate what was once a Polish majority

That's crap Sokrates.
Without the Treaty of Versailles and taking Danzig out of Germany there wouldn't had been a war and also there hadn't been a polish majority for centuries.

When we go after that then Germany has every right to reclaim Danzig as we lost our majority only 60 years back...

PS: You don't "germanize" trough a violent colonization Sokrates.
Taking on german customs, attitudes, culture is a long and voluntarily process (for every "...zation")!
I knew you people don't know what that means..
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #124
It was conquered territory which you held by force of arms and claims to ethnic majority which you yourself installed in a prolonged brutal process, pretty much the same as Wroclaw or Poznan.

Germans never been in majority in Poznań ...

What is more after 1918 ... there was no expulsions ... in revange for Germanisation ... after Hitler everyting changed, poker is poker, Germans wanted everything and lost a lot... still I don't understand why their allies got so much.

(It's nearly as funny as when Crow says Germans are germanized Slavs - still not saying who were these mysterious original "germanizers")

Well eastern Germans when we talk about the origin have some slavic blood the same as they have more Nordic blood than southern Germans...

Did they expell the Poles???

Yes

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=1840

Bismarck's Kulturkampf ("cultural struggle") against the Catholic Church included - and at times appeared driven by - a determined effort to undermine Polish nationalism in Prussia's eastern provinces. The immediate context for this long speech was abrutal operation in March and July 1885 whereby 48,000 Poles and Polish Jews were deported from these provinces.

Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #125
Ja...and many Poles have german blood also..so what!

So...who did the mysterious "germanizing" of the Germans? :):):)

Bismarck’s Kulturkampf (“cultural struggle”) against the Catholic Church included

I think that's the crux of the matter.
Problem was Poles were and seem to be still catholic talibans...

Bismarck was right to try to break the catholics neck as he wanted to modernize Prussia!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #126
How cruel of them!

Yeah wikipedia, anyone can edit it:) I'm aware of german settlement but they forget the issue that these very Germans a generation or two later spoke Polish, felt Polish (which is incidentally the source of our conflict over Kopernik who ethnically was German but nationally Polish as hell).

The real deal starts with the kingdom of Prussia which forcefully germanized the Polish majority but even if we go by your line of thought Gdańsk is still originally Polish as german peasants have been given land but not political power to secede which brings us back to Tuetonic massacres of Poles and the forcefull Germanization in Prussia, both of these done through violence on a natively Polish soil.

That's crap Sokrates.
Without the Treaty of Versailles and taking Danzig out of Germany there wouldn't had been a war and also there hadn't been a polish majority for centuries.

Thats probably the biggest bollocks you have ever written on these boards, Gdańsk was just an excuse and you know it, you Germans needed to boost your pride after having your asses kicked in WW1 and later by Poles in Silesian uprisings, you needed that war, you loved Hitler because he gave you your "pride" back, want me to upload youtube of extatic women and orgasmic crowds when Hitler passed?

War would happen one way or the other, an excuse would be invented by Germans or if they couldnt invent one they'd invade without it, in regards to Gdańsk i see nothing wrong in returning to Poland what was its native land.

When we go after that then Germany has every right to reclaim Danzig as we lost our majority only 60 years back...

You did not lose it, it would have to be yours in the first place, you claimed it when Poland was too weak to boot the elector from the region and kept it by virtue of force of arms, same with Poznań and Wrocław, only we lost them later.

PS: You don't "germanize" trough a violent colonization Sokrates.

Germanization was a long process, both violent and not, it was as far as Prussia is concerned a stick and carrot way, Poles who assimilated would become full members of German society, those who were evil and prejudiced enough to want to keep their national identity faced violent repressions.

Many Poles did yield because if you can lose your job for speaking Polish and have kids to feed you will bend, its not as easy as Germans standing with a loaded gun, there was blackmail, coercion, for the most stubborn Poles there were violent repressions but claiming that Germanization of natively Polish regions was a happy process with willing Poles learning to speak German is a blatant lie.
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #127
So...who did the mysterious "germanizing" of the Germans? :):):)

Lets leave it for Crow.

Bismarck was right to try to break the catholics neck as he wanted to modernize Prussia!

Well result wasn't good as long as many Polish Protestants became Catholic - national ties were stronger than religous.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #128
Bismarck was right to try to break the catholics neck as he wanted to modernize Prussia!

Bismarck wanted to break the Polish necks, it had nothing to do with modernizing Prussia and everything with breaking Poles, the little Hitler called Poland "the sick man of Europe" wonder if he'd call Germany that after 1945.

Ja...and many Poles have german blood also..so what!

Far more Germans have Polish blood, and many border towns and cities are slowly becoming Polish!

polishpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/16/poles-find-their-lebensraum-in-the-west-drang-nach-abandoned-east-germany-is-the-new-trend/

Drang nacht Berlin :))
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #129
these very Germans a generation or two later spoke Polish, felt Polish (which is incidentally the source of our conflict over Kopernik who ethnically was German but nationally Polish as hell).

They were "polonized" you mean?

(which is incidentally the source of our conflict over Kopernik who ethnically was German but nationally Polish as hell)

Didn't hinder him to work for Prussia till he died! :)

The real deal starts with the kingdom of Prussia which forcefully germanized the Polish majority

You mean "re-germanized" polonized ex-Germans??? :)

Thats probably the biggest bollocks you have ever written on these boards, Gdańsk was just an excuse and you know it

You can read alot of history books Sokrates and many historians will tell you the same as I do.
The treaty of Versailles is seen as paving the way for the success of Adolf Hitler and taking Danzig out of Germany was part of this treaty....

you loved Hitler because he gave you your "pride" back, want me to upload youtube of extatic women and orgasmic crowds when Hitler passed?

I'm not sure about the orgasms but people loved Hitler because he promised them to get back on the same people who forced Germany to this treaty and boy did we had our revenge (at first at least).

War would happen one way or the other, an excuse would be invented by Germans or if they couldnt invent one they'd invade without it, in regards to Gdańsk i see nothing wrong in returning to Poland what was its native land.

How could there had been war with Poland still partitioned?

You did not lose it, it would have to be yours in the first place, you claimed it when Poland was too weak to boot the elector from the region and kept it by virtue of force of arms, same with Poznań and Wrocław,

Well...if you don't accept an ethnic majority of 95 percent then Germans don't have to accept the actual polish majority either, don't they?

Many Poles did yield because if you can lose your job for speaking Polish and have kids to feed you will bend, its not as easy as Germans standing with a loaded gun, there was blackmail, coercion, for the most stubborn Poles there were violent repressions but claiming that Germanization of natively Polish regions was a happy process with willing Poles learning to speak German is a blatant lie.

See?
You contradict yourself here...
You don't assimilate because of some hardships!
No blackmail or coercion can make you to think like a German or to feel like a German.
Either you overvalue the power of the german culture or you totally dismiss the power of polish culture.
Please think about what that means...
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #130
Either you overvalue the power of the german culture or you totally dismiss the power of polish culture.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

Prussia's Germanisation policies in the Province of Posen mostly failed. Although most of the administrative measures aimed against the Poles remained in force until 1918, between 1912 and 1914 only four Polish-owned estates were expropriated, while at the same time Polish social organizations successfully competed with German trade organizations and even started to buy land from the Germans. The long-lasting effect of the Polish-German conflict in the area was development of a sense of Greater Polish identity, distinct from the identity common in other parts of Poland and primarily associated with nationalist ideas rather than socialism, prevailing in other parts of the country in the 20th century.

...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany

It is estimated that between 1.6 and 2 million people [9] were expelled from their homes during the German occupation of Poland. Only the German organized expulsions affected directly 1,710,000 Poles.[8] Additionally, 2.5 to 3 million Poles were taken from Poland as labourers to Germany to support the Nazi war effort.[5] These numbers do not include people arrested by the Germans and sent to Nazi concentration camps.[9].

Germans after the war received what they asked for. Poker is poker and in my opinion thay paide little price for what they have done. If I were responisble ... I'd made holocaust for them as long as I am not very religous person.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #131
Far more Germans have Polish blood,

Well...you can call them Poles with german blood too! :):):)

Drang nacht Berlin :))

And why is that a good thing compared to "Drang nach Westen?

You know Sokrates? With such little hints you give yourself away.
Don't whine about what the Germans did or not did, you do happily the same if you can!
You are not better...:)

Poker is poker and in my opinion thay paide little price for what they have done.

And who has asked you Luk?
Still fighting the war? Who cares...
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #132
Still fighting the war? Who cares...

It seems that you care, about result of this debate :) and I am telling you that after WWII it wouldn't be wrong to have border on Elbe river... If I were Stalin I would make so :-) After 60 years ... we would say, Move on!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #133
We know Luki...but you aren't and you haven't, live with it...accept the realities! :)
We don't even have borders anymore...if I would want to I could re-settle in Breslau without a thing hindering me.
All this griping, ******** and grudge bearing is so pointless...

And yeah...move on!
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #134
Well buing house in Wrocław is something much different than expulsion of Poles form there.

And yeah...move on!

Yeah but it is importnat to draw conclusions.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #135
yeah...as if it would be the Poles in Breslau fearing expellation...sure..
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #136
Had to walk a dog, btw ignore Solomon please, we'll have him euthanized shortly.

They were "polonized" you mean?

Yessir, i'd wager there's more than a quarter of a milion people who dont even remember they used to be German, while our countries dont roll well together they assimilate each others people very smoothly (pissing on Irons argument that white old Europe is full of different cultures).

Didn't hinder him to work for Prussia till he died! :)

There was no Prussia back then, Kopernik to be specific had a Polish father and a German mother, his works were influenced by a Polish professor while he was studying in Kraków, Toruń at the time was a multinational city falling within Polish influence and Kopernik is a clear example of it, the guy was related to most major Polish nobility and German merchant/nobles in the region (through his mother).

He never worked for Prussia, the region at the time had much more in common with Poland since Poland was a unified state and the heanzeatic cities were not.

You mean "re-germanized" polonized ex-Germans??? :)

No i mean germanizing ethnic Poles, Poznań and Wrocław had Polish majorities when they entered kingdom of Prussia, these turned into minorities since many Poles either moved or were Germanized but they were forced to do it under economic and administrative pressure, it was not a willing process.

You can read alot of history books Sokrates and many historians will tell you the same as I do.
The treaty of Versailles is seen as paving the way for the success of Adolf Hitler and taking Danzig out of Germany was part of this treaty....

Yes yes there's also historians who claim world is several thousands years old and created by God bible style.

The facts are, Germany wanted its own slice of power in Europe, power that was already taken by France UK and Russia, there was no other way than war.

Bismarcks pet state bred people to dominate, fight and win, Germans were completely unable to cope with failiure, you wanted to wage war against France and Russia (in the end UK would probably get it too) as a means of revenge, Poland was never a reason, neither for the first nor the second war, not its existence, not Danzig.

Hitler is a direct descendant of militaristic society, unable to cope with defeat you needed another go, another war, the treaty of Versailles was just a symbol, even if you were allowed to keep Poland the result would be the same, not to mention that Poland did free itself so you should have directed your anger against Poland, instead you will notice France and Russia earmarked as enemies early on.

Dont blaim WW2 on Poland because it was not even close to a reason, you lost WW1, your economy got squashed by reparations, and more importantly you lost your misplaced pride, the utter failure of Germany to form a healthy flexible society was the only reason Hitler got all the way to the top.

How could there had been war with Poland still partitioned?

Poland was not the premiere reason for WW2, even if it would not recover its lands Germany would still assault Russia and France, the only thing different would be that there would be no invasion of Poland.

Well...if you don't accept an ethnic majority of 95 percent then Germans don't have to accept the actual polish majority either, don't they?

I dont accept the ways it was achieved and incidentally history has this tendency to right itself given time, Germany made such great attempts to grab and hold these lands and after nearly four centuries we're still here, this too is the legacy of Bismarcks failiure.

The guy failed to recognize that nations, countries are living creatures that evolve and interact in accordance with certain potentials, you cannot arbitraly take land or impose policies because you will lose.

No blackmail or coercion can make you to think like a German or to feel like a German.

Yet another of Bismarcks failiures, people who were pushed resisted but not all, you can forcefully integrate someone, he will not feel like a German but surrounded by indoctrination he will succumb.

That Polish culture survived on these areas is testament to how dynamic we are even under pressure.

Either you overvalue the power of the german culture or you totally dismiss the power of polish culture.
Please think about what that means...

Neither, while as political and national entities we will always be rivals our cultures intertwine, assimilation of some in mixed regions is inevitable.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #137
Germany made such great attempts to grab and hold these lands and after nearly four centuries we're still here, this too is the legacy of Bismarcks failiure.

Well...it was the slavs who wandered westwards into german lands, why are you forgetting this every time?
You and your people have a very selective memory!

And I really don't want to discuss Bismarck with you Sokrates...you have your opinion and I have mine...

That Polish culture survived on these areas is testament to how dynamic we are even under pressure.

Or this "pressure" is in big parts a cooked up myth to build polish nationalism!
Ever thought about that?
Our cultures and people lived for millennia now side by side and I don't buy that "big bad german monster" what is always out to eat polish babies if I'm honest!

It was Poles who ended this with erasing german history (something which the other way around never happened under "germany tyranny") and even now want to have even more of Germany...don't give me any more **** Sokrates!
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
19 May 2009 /  #138
Our cultures and people lived for millennia now side by side and I don't buy that "big bad german monster" what is always out to eat polish babies if I'm honest!

Not German - Prussian
The greatest mistake of Kingdom of Poland was to help to create Prussian state!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #139
Well...it was the slavs who wandered westwards into german lands, why are you forgetting this every time?
You and your people have a very selective memory!

We wandered into german lands? Like the German Berlin? Oh wait Berlin was a slavic settlement.

In a pill, Germans were steamrolling eastwards untill you met tribes of what would later become the Polish nation and got your arse repeatedly kicked, then we became christian and the entire show began.

And I really don't want to discuss Bismarck with you Sokrates...you have your opinion and I have mine...

BISMARCK SUCKS :D

Our cultures and people lived for millennia now side by side and I don't buy that "big bad german monster" what is always out to eat polish babies if I'm honest!

Who says its a big bad german monster? Its been a coin that was turning, Poland had an upper hand on every possible field from culture to military for centures, than Germany had its time, then Poland again, we're rival states, to be honest thats the first time in history when we dont want to rip each other a new arsehole and thats an achievement in itself.

and even now want to have even more of Germany...

We do? I'm pretty sure we've no claim to any bit you have and the only reason why we buy houses in Eastern Germany is because they're cheaper and you have entire towns emptying, whatcha prefer a Turk or a Pole? With luck some of them will become German in a few generations, heck maybe a new Bismarck will be named Janek?:)

don't give me any more **** Sokrates!

Calm down, notice i dont judge Germany throught history as good or bad, i called Bismarck a failiure (as well as Prussia) because they tried to brute their way across, if Germany tried EU in the first place all of Europe would have bent over Poland included and Berlin would today be Washington of United States of Europe, but thanks to Prussia you blew your grand chance, probably forever, Germany was one of very few states in Europe that could have pulled that off.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #140
Another useful scape goat...the "bad bad prussians!"

Just for your consolation...if it hadn't been Prussia then it would had been another german state...there were many and the historical development demanded someone taking control.

PS: The Prussians once helped Europe to get free of Napoleon...you know...the same tyrant who the Poles couldn't do enough licking his feet/boots!

because they tried to brute their way across,

That is hardly a sign of failure. Or you would call Rome and the british/french empires and the polish commonwealth failures too.

Prussia and Bismarck still left their marks even today and especially Bismarck is seen as the most crafty, skillfull and important politician of the 19th century...some failure!

We wandered into german lands? Like the German Berlin? Oh wait Berlin was a slavic settlement.

See what I mean?
You have a total selective point of view!
Yes Sokrates, the Slavs were the late comer, they wandered westwards into germanic land, every history book will tell you that!

Everything what is Poland was first german land!
Already 2000 years back and now pack your bag and leave my land please!

if Germany tried EU in the first place all of Europe would have bent over Poland included and Berlin would today be Washington of United States of Europe, but thanks to Prussia you blew your grand chance, probably forever, Germany was one of very few states in Europe that could have pulled that off.

You don't believe that honestly, don't you?
Especially Poles would had fighted any german idea tooth and nail...probably talking "germanization" again....
Even now you have problems with others in the EU and can't help but lick US/UK's boots.

Good luck!
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
19 May 2009 /  #141
Well, there is such a thing as property law, BB. If you have the title deeds, I am sure that lawyers would be willing to have a look at them and orchestrate some kind of restitutio in integrum (restitution). You know very well that land changes in awkward ways and the need to pinpoint dates rises to the fore. Just look at Israel. By objective criteria, it should be easy to point to dates and events to show ownership but is it that easy?
Torq  
19 May 2009 /  #142
The Prussians once helped Europe to get free of Napoleon...

If Napoleon managed to conquer the entire Europe and establish
an empire under the French rule then we wouldn't have the First
and Second World Wars, so I wouldn't be too grateful to the Prussians.

the Slavs were the late comer

Everything what is Poland was first german land!

pack your bag and leave my land please!

But "your" land is where it always was. We didn't hide it anywhere :-)
You want it? Come and get it.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #143
Another useful scape goat...the "bad bad prussians!"

Not bad, stupid, their means to a goal made the goal unachievable.

PS: The Prussians once helped Europe to get free of Napoleon...

And Polish helped Europe get rid of Turks and Russians more than once helped Europe get rid of everything not bolted down, everyone helped Europe get rid of something one time or another not big deal.

Everything what is Poland was first german land!

Carefull there, Wroclaw and Poznan were originally celtic and later slavic, Kraków, Gniezno and Gdańsk were all originally slavic, Germanic tribes only start going eastwards between 850 and 900 A.D and by that time they hit Slavs, as for Berlin you're absolutely right, Slavs moved in around 7 cent A.D

Or you would call Rome and the british/french empires and the polish commonwealth failures too.

Oh yes, how soon and how drastically a political construct falls is indication of how much of its structure was a failed concept, Britain and France are the smaller losers here since they managed to reap the rewards, Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth could be a good start for united Europe but failed due to too many reasons to recount, Prussia was doomed to failiure from the beginning, it would last only as long as its military success would, when it did fail in WW1 the nation itself degenerated and started WW2.

I'm talking from the perspective of potentially stable Europe unified for good under one continental banner, if you want to have a powerfull state for a few centuries than all of those you mentioned were succesfull, for a pre-determined period of time.
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
19 May 2009 /  #144
Yes Sokrates, the Slavs were the late comer, they wandered westwards into germanic land, every history book will tell you that!

What happed to "germans" from that territory? ah wait they went for a field trip to Galia and Africa
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #145
Prussia was doomed to failiure from the beginning

Really?

It existed till 1945 and it needed a whole alliance to dissolve it...where stems your wisdom from I ask?

Come and get it.

Nah...you are still crying about our last try from 60 years back...we can't stand another century!

If Napoleon managed to conquer the entire Europe and establish
an empire under the French rule then we wouldn't have the First
and Second World Wars, so I wouldn't be too grateful to the Prussians.

Well...says it all doesn't it.
The ones freedom fights are the other ones...what?

Oh and for sure would we have had wars...lots of it!
But interesting that you are don't averse empires per se, interesting!

it would last only as long as its military success would,

if you want to have a powerfull state for a few centuries than all of those you mentioned were succesfull, for a pre-determined period of time.

Well...that's human history for you!
Where was Prussia different???
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #146
It existed till 1945 and it needed a whole alliance to dissolve it...

And Polish Commonwealth required half a century of savage warfare with everyone around it to even become weakened, whats your point here?

...where stems your wisdom from I ask?

Observation, if you create a country thats poised to challenge others you will eventually lose, Poland fell from power after decades of fighting against armies that'd make contemporary western powers **** their pants, Germany required most of the Western world and USSR to bring down but in the end it doesnt matter, what matters is that you failed.

You did not fail because your enemies got lucky but because creating a state that requires perpetual external challenges will in the end put you in conflict with forces you cannot overcome, it happened to Rome, it happend to Napoleon, it happened to Germany, it happened to Russia.

In the end it doesnt matter how strong or united or impressive your power is you still fail, Prussia was more confrontational than most powers so its failiure was also more imminent, history proves me right.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #147
And Polish Commonwealth required half a century of savage warfare with everyone around it to even become weakened, whats your point here?

Not because you didn't want but you lacked the means, the skill and the determination!
You would never had made a polish Prussia! :)
Europeans still now remember Prussia, only nerds know about the polish commonwealth...sorry...but true.

PS: I'm reading the Ukraine thread...interesting to read that the Poles there behaved the same like they accuse the Germans of...:)
You know, forced polonization, destroying of the ukrainian elite and culture etc. really interesting!

what matters is that you failed.

Not really as it was never a viable idea/option anyhow...the Nazis were forced to go on on rampage till they fell dead...it would have never worked in peace on the long run. It was a deadborn madness from the start.

Prussia was more confrontational than most powers

Really!

How do you think got the british and the french their world spanning empires? Through asking? Knocking politely? The Spanish? (south american genocide for gold anybody?). Even the Dutch? They got fat on the backs of slaves!

The US killed the natives to resettle the lands with immigrants from Europe....I think you are losing the proportions here!
Prussia never had colonies nor were part of the slave trade, it emancipated Jews and even encouraged immigration like from the hugenots.
Your image of Prussia is so one-sided and biased it's no fun!
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #148
You would never had made a polish Prussia!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard_Union_(medieval)

The Lizard Union or Lizard League (German: Eidechsenbund; Polish: Związek Jaszczurczy) was an organization of Prussian nobles and knights established in Culmerland (Chełmno Land) in 1397. Its declared goal was to combat lawlessness, although it discreetly sought the transfer of Culmerland from the Teutonic Knights to Poland.

Renys was executed by the Order after the war, causing the remaining members of the Lizard Union to flee to Poland.[2] The Lizard Union was declared illegal[citation needed] by Pope Gregory XII and Emperor Sigismund and was subsequently dissolved. However, it laid the foundation of the later Prussian Confederation, which requested the annexation of the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights into Poland in 1454.

Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #149
]

Not because you didn't want but you lacked the means, the skill and the determination!

Oh please, the Commonwealth was in Moscow, twice, at that particular time our military was miles above anyone else and it showed in the outcomes of battles, Swedes, Turks, Muscovites, the largest, most skilled or both, skill and determination were the two things the Commonwealth had pouring out its ears at its height.

You would never had made a polish Prussia! :)

Definitely not but Poland had all the political means to either keep Germany in parts or help Austria unite it, Austria was in 15-17 century a very pro-Polish state and who knows how our relations would look today.

Europeans still now remember Prussia, only nerds know about the polish commonwealth...sorry...but true.

Thats mostly because of the communism and partianlly intentional effort of the West, for the last few generations it was not comfortable to teach that one of the greatest European powers in history is now a blood red commie, before that there were partitions and partitioners did not want Poland remembered that way either so its hardly strange that Poland is not as widely known for its golden period, it existed none the less.

Not really as it was never a viable idea/option anyhow...the Nazis were forced to go on on rampage till they fell dead...it had never worked in peace on the long run. It was a deadborn madness from the start.

Yes but it was born in Prussia of kings and nurtured by Bismarck, Nazis are a direct result of massive psychological breakdown of Germans raised by their leaders to be soldiers, not even warriors but soldiers set on an unflexible path, its a wonder that Germany recovered at all but the trauma is there even if its not immidietaly haunting you at night.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #150
was an organization of Prussian nobles and knights established

And?

Definitely not but Poland had all the political means to either keep Germany in parts or help Austria unite it, Austria was in 15-17 century a very pro-Polish state and who knows how our relations would look today.

No, you hadn't or you would have at least tried!
Give it up Sokrates! :)

Thats mostly because of the communism and partianlly intentional effort of the West

Och nö...not another polish conspirator talking about "the west" plotting to do all possible bad things to the poor Poles...

Yes but it was born in Prussia of kings and nurtured by Bismarck,

WHAT???? Now you are losing it...please explain your link from Bismarck to the Nazis and Hitler!

but the trauma is there even if its not immidietaly haunting you at night.

Erm...please...stop talking sh*it and discuss seriously or I will need to ignore you like the other clown here.

Archives - 2005-2009 / History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the WorldArchived