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World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World


Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #151
And?

/wiki/Nicholas_von_Renys

Nicholas von Renys (German: Nikolaus von Renys; Polish: Mikołaj z Ryńska; 1360 - 1411) was a secular Prussian knight during the Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic War (1409-1411).

Nicholas von Renys was born at Rhein (Ryn) near Lötzen (Giżycko) in Prussia, within the komturship of Balga. Jan Długosz described him as a German (Nicolaus dictus Niksz, nacione Swewus) in his Banderia Prutenorum.[1] Stephen Turnbull identifies him as a "secular knight of Polish descent ... of the clan Rogala"

During the Battle of Grunwald in 1410, von Renys carried the banner of the Culmerland troops for the Teutonic Order, described in the Latin Banderia Prutenorum.[1] Unwilling to fight against Poland, he lowered the banner, which was considered a signal for retreat that contributed to the defeat of the Knights.

Torq  
19 May 2009 /  #153
But interesting that you are don't averse empires per se, interesting!

In a prefect world we would have one united european empire, with a huge demograpical,
economic, military and scientific potential, able to compete on equal terms with USA and
China in the future. However, because of historical issues and too many strong nationalisms
it is currently not possible and the immense potential that Europe still has will not be
fully utilized. As for the French Empire, yes - I admit that I am a bit of a bonapartist :-)
(it's kinda like with Crow's Slavija, but I know that it's not very realistic lol).
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #154
Yes, and???

In Europe of Regions everything is possible :-)

Going back to WWII... Germans after the war were treaten softly for what they have done.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #155
However, because of historical issues and too many strong nationalisms
it is currently not possible and the immense potential that Europe still has will not be
fully utilized.

And whose fault is that?

Poles had been only to happy to change sides as Bush and Rumsfeld tried to split Europe...man you were so easy! People were disgusted, watching this.

Some attention and a bone and surely you were salivating and wagging your tail like a good poodle!

With you we never will build up a strong Europe!
You are just not committed as we are...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #156
No, you hadn't or you would have at least tried!
Give it up Sokrates! :)

No we wouldnt, Poland was at the time focused on the East actively colonizing Ukraine and pushing into Russia, German states were dwarfs politically and economically, they were looked down at as weaker and too different and Poland was slowly losing political integrity due to increasing power of the great noble houses within, its not that we physically couldnt because we could, there was no power in Germany to stop us at that time but we were focused elsewhere and lacked foresight to know that Prussia would become a danger.

WHAT???? Now you are losing it...please explain your link from Bismarck to the Nazis and Hitler!

I already did, he was an extention of the Prussian school of thought were military might and discipline are means to political success, "blood and iron" his words BB arent they?

But what if blood and iron fail? What happens when you lose? You end up with a nation completely incapable of dealing with it, people raised for generations for victory or else just couldnt take the "or else" and thats why Hitler happened.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #157
I already did, he was an extention of the Prussian school of thought were military might and discipline are means to political success, "blood and iron" his words BB arent they?

And how is that Bismarcks fault??? Hitler was no Prussian! He grew up in Austria, a wannabe artist!

PS: Bismarck didn't fail Sokrates. He made with skill, brain and determination a nation out of heap of little statelets and later kept the peace through smart alliances!

With him Germany thrived...it was his death and an unexperienced King who couldn't fill the big man's foot steps!
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
19 May 2009 /  #158
So Poland had its own little 'drang nach osten' project, Sokrates? Why were you trying to colonise countries, then?
Torq  
19 May 2009 /  #159
And whose fault is that?

Poles had been only to happy to change sides as Bush and Rumsfeld trie to split Europe

Realpolitik on our part here. Dreams about an empire are all good, but not when
our alleged partners and allies in the not-yet-existing empire are trying to fcuk
us and deal with Russia over our heads (does Nord Stream ring a bell?). So we
had to find a counterbalance for your hostile politics.

with you we never will build up a strong Europe!

If only you could show more solidarity and treated us on equal terms
you would have a strong ally and partner to build the future European
empire.

You are just not committed as we are...

Committed to build your own hegemony inside the EU and deal with Russians
over our heads.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #160
I think the Iraq war came first Torqi...what now?:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #161
And how is that Bismarcks fault??? Hitler was no Prussian?

Bismarck was just one of the primary culprits, he wound Germans up to a point where there was no return, as for Hitler his nationality doesnt matter, he could just as well be a pink martian, the point is that he was a nutter and due to the Prussias failure in WW1 Germans largely incapable of going on as they were allowed him power they were so desperate for some success, any success.

He gave it to them allright, and then your women were giving birth to healthy russian boys, that is if they survived the rape or if they werent in Dresden at the time, you were still lucky you didnt get sterilized, starved or partitioned, only the rivarly between Stalin and the West prevented your destruction as an european power.

PS: Bismarck didn't fail Sokrates. He made with skill, brain and determination a nation out of heap of little statelets and later kept the peace through smart alliances!

Germany would have united anyway, the only question was who and how would unite it, Bismarck was not the best man for the job.

With him Germany thrived...it was his dead and an unexperienced King who couldn't fill his foot steps!

Doesnt matter, WW1 would have happened anyway since there was no other way to achieve dominant role and Prussia wouldnt want to achieve it any other way, you would lose even if you cloned Bismarck and made him into an army since WW1 was about mathematics, they had more and then WW2 would still happen for reasons mentioned.

By the time of Bismarck Germany had its history written down for another 60 years.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #162
Bismarck was just one of the primary culprits, he wound Germans up to a point where there was no return,

WHAT???
What are you talking about???

Germany would have united anyway,

How?

By the time of Bismarck Germany had its history written down for another 60 years.

???
Sokrates....a honest advise from me, please get a grip on your Prussia/Bismarck hatred. You are losing your objectivity and are getting things just plain wrong. Your arguments losing quality and value...not good for a successful discussion.

I don't know what you read and who told you all that but I would be interested to know.
Would you please be so kind and give me some links which support your strange ideas?
Thank you
Torq  
19 May 2009 /  #163
I think the Iraq war came first Torqi...what now?:)

*rolls eyes*

All right, OK - so we went to a little war. Kept our army fit and exercised
(instead of letting them get fat and lazy in their barracks).

One little war - BIG FUCKIN DEAL!

Surely it can't justify you dealing with Russians over our heads, can it???

Anyways, gotta catch some z's. Some people here have to go to work tomorrow.
Goodnight, lads.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
19 May 2009 /  #164
Then there was Afghanistan :)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #165
Anyways, gotta catch some z's. Some people here have to go to work tomorrow.
Goodnight, lads.

Yeah, me too...good discussion again! Till later :)

*takes helmet and cloak, fastens sword belt*
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
19 May 2009 /  #166
It is about that time. Even troops need rest :)
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #167
Bratwurst you can use term Nazi instead of German but ... you can claim that Hitler was born in Austria but ... It was German policy.

/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany

It is estimated that between 1.6 and 2 million people [9] were expelled from their homes during the German occupation of Poland. Only the German organized expulsions affected directly 1,710,000 Poles.[8] Additionally, 2.5 to 3 million Poles were taken from Poland as labourers to Germany to support the Nazi war effort.[5] These numbers do not include people arrested by the Germans and sent to Nazi concentration camps.[9]

It is story of WWII in Poland. You can't change it. Hoses stolen from the Poles were given for Germans. I have strange feeling that Germans try to make their history softer ... but if Germans had won ... some people on east would talk about place where I live like Crow about East Germany ... Accept your past as it was.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #168
WHAT???
What are you talking about???

This is getting old, we both know history, Bismarck was an ardent proponent of achieving domination through military might, thats how.

Military and war are a neccesity at times but making them a premiere solution to international disputes and raising an entire nation with such a deep conviction damaged the entire social structure and perception of reality of an average German, Hitler and WW2 are the result of it, thats why Bismarck bears so much responsibility.

Time to hit the sack, i'll abuse Otto some more tomorrow :)
Salomon 2 | 436  
20 May 2009 /  #169
Next Chapter Of Polish hisotry durring WWII

/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Polish_children_by_Germany

Kidnapping of Polish children by Nazi Germany (Polish: Rabunek dzieci), part of the Generalplan Ost (GPO), involved taking children from occupied Poland and moving them to Nazi Germany for the purpose of Germanization, or conversion into Germans. The aim of the project was to acquire and "Germanize" children with purportedly Aryan traits who were considered by Nazi officials to be descendants of German settlers that had immigrated to Poland.[/b]

/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles and settled by German colonists.[4] A majority of them, now deprived of their leaders and most of their intelligentsia (through human losses, destruction of culture, and the ban on education above the absolutely basic level), would have to be deported to regions in the East and scattered over as wide an area of Western Siberia as possible, according to the plan resulting in their assimilation by the local populations which would cause the Poles to vanish as a nation.

After that ... Germans could had been exterminated ... well somebody decided to treat them softer....

The fact is that they wanted to exterminate whole Polish nation.

After that ... Germans could had been exterminated ... well somebody decided to treat them softer....

I am thinking ... about this conclusion... Finally Germans wanted to exterminate whole Poland ... murdered millions of Polish citiens ( 50% of murdered were Jews 50% were christian)

If they had been exterminated in revenge after the war ... as for me it looks ok.

Well somebody made different decision and there was no serious revenge on them after the war ... maybe that is why they are so impudent with their interpretations of history.

Now we are neighbors and new generations are growing but drawing a conclusion ... next time punishment for such crimes (lets hope it will never happen) should be much more severe.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
20 May 2009 /  #170
If they had been extermianted in revange after the war ...

There were some very serious plans to partition Germany, give its major parts to Poland and France and make it into an agrarian federation, frankly i believe that Europe without Germany is better than with it since Germany was for a very long time "sick man of Europe" stirring conflict, right now though it seems Germany is redefining itself in a more peacefull spirit.

as for me it looks ok.

You see extermination of an entire people as OK? What about those few Germans who did oppose Nazis and helped opressed civilians?

Well sombody made differet decision and there was no serious revange on them after the war ... maybe that is why they are so impudinet with their interpretations of history.

Politics do not operate in terms of vengance, Germany would have been destroyed as a meaningful European country but was preserved as a tool in conflict between Russia and the West.
Salomon 2 | 436  
20 May 2009 /  #171
You see extermination of an entire people as OK? What about those few Germans who did oppose Nazis and helped opressed civilians?

It is question of Polands place on "civilization leather" and safty in the future. You need to fight for your place.

Polands place in German minds isn't hight

Just look on different standarts Germans have in wars on west and on east. Poland in this situation should use German satandarts used on east.

Drawing conclusion ... in case of severe revange Poland would be in much safer situation (revange would be kind of self defence) ... Poland would be richer ... and happier country.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
20 May 2009 /  #172
It is question of Polands place on "civilization leather" and safty in the future.

The primary culprit of Polands downfall was Poland itself, we allowed Germany and Russia to rise to power through our inaction and internal discord back when we were a major player in Europe, before you go medieval on anyone abroad take a critical look at our own nation.

Drawing conclusion ... in case of severe revange Poland would be in much safer situation (revange would be kind of self defence) ... Poland would be richer ...

Decades will pass before Poland is a country that can militarily, politically and economically topple Germany and when/if that happens we'll reach a level of normalization in our mutual relations in which war will be out of the question for either side so your point is absolutely moot.

Poland would be richer ... and happier country.

Yes it would but you forget that German people are first and foremost not German but people, its easy to wipe your arse with terms like revenge or genocide on an internet forum, i agree that we should in the future work towards weakening German position but thats it.
Salomon 2 | 436  
20 May 2009 /  #173
The primary culprit of Polands downfall was Poland itself, we allowed Germany and Russia to rise to power through our inaction and internal discord back when we were a major player in Europe, before you go medieval on anyone abroad take a critical look at our own nation.

Power in genreal is differen question... I am talking about different standarts Germans have in their policies on east to what they have on west ...

How to say it ... they have choosen standarts using which they should be treaten after the war.

If Poles exterminated them after the war ... it would be totaly ok according to German standarts they have chosen to use on east ...

What I want to add, Poland to change Germans making much more brutal politics on east (not only durring WWII) than on west ... needs to use the same methods which Germans choose when it comes policies towards Poland ... nothing more.

Now we have peacfull times (Poland and Germany aren't preparing armies on borders) but there is need to draw the conclusion.

I consider such behaviour as element of self-defence and self-respect which could lead to higher standards in conflicts Poland has against Germany.
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
20 May 2009 /  #174
1939 was a point where you could bend Germany over like a red headed stepchild,

Haha, never heard that one before!
Problem was, that by 1939 Germany had been allowed to rearm and had been given substantial industrial regions and factories (Skoda factory in Czech, for one) and had also been practising a bit in Spain during the civil war.

Wasnt Danzig one of the old Teutonic strongholds? Im sure I read somewhere of british knights heading there as part of a papal approved crusade in the 12th C....

They did indeed, inclusing a number of Scottish knights (one of whom, Sir Douglas, was killed in a duel with English knights). By 17th C about 30% of Gdansk was of Scottish heritage.
Salomon 2 | 436  
20 May 2009 /  #175
Adolf Hitler said when he planed invasion of Poland :

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
20 May 2009 /  #176
"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

Something which still rang true until recently when they refused to include the Armenians in the Genocide day in case it offended the Turks.
Salomon 2 | 436  
20 May 2009 /  #177
Well Germans should tell for the world history of eastern part of their country ( eastern Germany) and Polabian Slavic tribes which were exterminated there....
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
20 May 2009 /  #178
Pre or post WW2?
Salomon 2 | 436  
20 May 2009 /  #179
In middle ages, I am talking about tribes who inhabited lands on west from current Polish border ... it is like Armenian history in Turkey.
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
20 May 2009 /  #180
Ah, I see. Would that include the Ancient Prussians too?

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