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World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World


Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
20 May 2009 /  #181
Salomon Edited by: Salomon Today, 22:49

What is your point exactly? Hitler has been dead for 64 years now, people who served in Wehrmacht are dead or old, discussing any revenge or conflict 3 generations later when the situation has been stable for more than half a century is kinda pointless.
Salomon 2 | 436  
20 May 2009 /  #182
Ah, I see. Would that include the Ancient Prussians too?

Oh yes ... most of them were exterminated in middle ages ... rest assimilated into Polish, German culture, or live in Lithuania which supported Poland durring battle of Grunwald (because they were next on the list)... very interesting story.

What is your point exactly? Hitler has been dead for 64 years now, people who served in Wehrmacht are dead or old, discussing any revenge or conflict 3 generations later when the situation has been stable for more than half a century is kinda pointless.

Well of course we haven't had such positive neigbourhood with German state for centuries....

I am debating about history.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601  
21 May 2009 /  #183
Gentlemen, gentlemen, thanks for the history lessons. I'm surprised I didn't know some of the 'inside' stuff presented here. It's as if you fellows are pipe-smoking yet street-wise professors while Bratwurst Boy is the indignant student surprised by facts that demolish his opinions.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699  
21 May 2009 /  #184
Germans after the war were treaten softly for what they have done.

lets not forget they did attempt to asassinate hitler. it isnt like they had
a choice once they put him in power.
sjam 2 | 541  
21 May 2009 /  #185
also been practising a bit in Spain during the civil war.

Is it not the case that Poland also supported the Franco's fascist forces (as Germany did) during the Spanish civil war?

And that Gen. Anders negotiated with Franco after the war to maintain Polish forces in Spain, where the Poles were trying to set up a Catholic alliance with Spain against the Soviet Union, who Anders believed was preparing to start WWIII against the West within a few of years of the end of WWII.

Franco did not take up Anders plan but he gave permission for Anders to run a Polish language broadcasting radio station in Spain whose role was anti-Soviet propanganda.

Maybe this stance contributed to the Soviet propaganda that Anders and the exiled Polish forces were 'Fascist Conspirators' and 'Hitlerites' ?
Salomon 2 | 436  
21 May 2009 /  #186
Is it not the case that Poland also supported the Franco's fascist forces

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%85browszczacy

Dąbrowszczacy, also known as Dąbrowski's Brigade or Dombrowsky Battalion was a predominantly Polish International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). About 5,000 Poles fought in that unit. The Brigade was named after the 19th century Polish general Jarosław Dąbrowski. The unit was formed as Dąbrowski's battalion in October 1936; in June 1937 it was reorganised into the 150th Brigade, which in addition to two Polish battalions (Dąbrowski's and Palefox's) included also a Hungarian (Rakosy's) and a Belgian-French (Marty's) one

Poland was second biggest arms supplier to the Republic, just after USSR

Polish gov was neutral during spanish civil war but there were some volunteer units on Republican side fighting against Franco :-). What is more Poland was 2nd Republica arms supplier during this war.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
21 May 2009 /  #187
I just imagine Luki sitting all alone in his dark corner, rocking for and back, frothing at the mouth, mumblin: "We should had killed them all! We should had killed them all! We should had killed them all"

If it makes you feel better...you NEVER had a say in it nor any means to do it. You never had and never will have.

Any attack from you will only result in the world looking the other way when you get partitioned again.
So enjoy the reality as it is, it could be much worse..:)
niejestemcapita 2 | 561  
21 May 2009 /  #188
discussing any revenge or conflict 3 generations later when the situation has been stable for more than half a century is kinda pointless.

Hooray! Thank u Sokrates.....
What really irritates me even more is people who discuss "history" using "WE" and "YOU"!!
Our high school history teacher woulda given em a slap...:)
sjam 2 | 541  
21 May 2009 /  #189
Polish gov was neutral durring spanish civil war but there were some volountier units on Republican side fighting against Franco :-).

Maybe the Wiki article needs updating?

Dr Jan Stanisław Ciechanowski, from University of Warsaw, in his paper General Anders and His Contacts With Spain, published in the book General Władysław Anders. Soldier and Leader of the Free Poles in Exile.

Writes that:

During the Spanish Civil War, between 1936 and 1939, the Government of Poland sympathised with the so called "national side" of General Francisco Franco, whilst at the same time selling a considerable amount of arms to 'leftist Spain'.

Ref: General Anders and His Contacts With Spain, w: General Władysław Anders. Soldier and Leader of the Free Poles in Exile. Papers from the Conference Organised by the Polish University Abroad, London, 15-16 June 2007, red. J. Pyłat, J. Ciechanowski, A. Suchcitz, London 2008, s. 193-206;

A large part of the Spanish political elite of the right showed sympathy towards Catholic Poland which was strengthened during the Civil War when Poles in dramatic circumstances saved many imperilled Spanish rightists, some of whom later became ministers in Franco's cabinets

Ref: Azyl dyplomatyczny w poselstwie Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej w czasie hiszpańskiej wojny domowej (1936-1939), „Przegląd Historyczny”, t. XCI, z. 4, Warszawa 2000, s. 551-584. Jan Stanisław Ciechanowski,

Polska zajęła stanowisko dwuznaczne. Przyłączyła się do polityki mocarstw zachodnich, uczestniczyła w pracach Ligi Narodów, i Komitetu Nieinterwencji. Jednak wyraźne były sympatie rządu dla Nacjonalistów. Zabroniono wyjazdu ochotnikom, a tych którzy walczyli w Brygadach Międzynarodowych pozbawiono obywatelstwa polskiego. Polska dzięki wojnie domowej w Hiszpanii pozbyła się ogromnych ilości starego i wadliwego sprzętu wojskowego który sprzedawała obu walczącym stronom..

ref: M. Zagurniak, "Wojna domowa w Hiszpanii w oświetleniu polskiego rządowego piśmiennictwa politycznego i wojskowego 1936-1939", w: "Studia Historyczne", r.XXVI, z.3, 1983, s.451-458; A. Jońca, R. Szubański, J. Tarczyński, Wrzesień 1939.Pojazdy wojska polskiego.Barwa i broń,Warszawa 1990, s.61
shopgirl 6 | 928  
21 May 2009 /  #190
What is your point exactly? Hitler has been dead for 64 years now, people who served in Wehrmacht are dead or old, discussing any revenge or conflict 3 generations later when the situation has been stable for more than half a century is kinda pointless

Because he is obsessed.

I've never seen anyone so obsessed with hating Germans....he's made it into an art form.

If only he could find a breakfast cereal in the shape of little German soldiers, so he could have them for breakfast. Maybe put some ketchup on them so they look bloody. Freaky-deaky man!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
21 May 2009 /  #191
If only he could find a breakfast cereal in the shape of little German soldiers, so he could have them for breakfast. Maybe put some ketchup on them so they look bloody. Freaky-deaky man!

niejestemcapita 2 | 561  
21 May 2009 /  #192
If only he could find a breakfast cereal in the shape of little German soldiers,

Brilliant shopgirl! I see a business opportunity! Tiny crunchy Germans!
Trevek 26 | 1,702  
21 May 2009 /  #193
I was at a seminar in Oswiecim recently and a Polish guy wanted (wants) to do a whole series of conferences exploring the positive areas of Polish/German relationships through history. As one guy said, for many years/centuries the border was one of the most stable in Europe and there was a lot of cross-cultural pollenation.

Could be fun.
roboghostdog - | 13  
6 Jun 2009 /  #194
Poland still is a great nation, just a little confused..
Babinich 1 | 455  
16 Jun 2009 /  #195
Don't whine about what the Germans did or not did, you do happily the same if you can!

You mean the Polish armed forces would murder, enslave, or hold hostage innocent civilians just as the German armed forces did in WWI & WWII?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Jun 2009 /  #196
If it makes you feel better...you NEVER had a say in it nor any means to do it. You never had and never will have.
Any attack from you will only result in the world looking the other way when you get partitioned again.
So enjoy the reality as it is, it could be much worse..:)

Like when we had this huge state and you were a bunch of little countries?:) This is exactly wht Poland dislikes Germany, you got where you are through luck and forgot that in the past you were a dwarf, want me to give you a map of the Commonwealth in XV century? We had the means to squash Germany like a bug buuut instead we went to Vienna :))

Oh wait we butchered the flower of your knighthood for about 100 years in every war with the Teutons because we were lucky, that must be it :)))))

Chauvinism wont get you far mr 61 million people and failing economy, our economy is not failing, in fact all predictions are good for us, bad for you, it would be good if you'd come to grips with your oversized balls since soon enough you might mean quite a bit less than Poland :))))
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
16 Jun 2009 /  #197
You tell me about chauvinism???
You don't have much to show, is it that why you have to beat your chest especially hard?

What was your commonwealth actually famous for? Do you really want to compare polish achievments over the centuries with german inventions even as Germany was splittered???

Wanna compare german world wide known inventors, thinkers, artists, musicians with the "masses" of polish ones?:)

You won every battle against the Germans and ended up partitioned and occupied since the Knights carved Prussia out of your's?
You were a part of an alliance against the Turks in Vienna but without the Viennese you wouldn't even had needed to move your troops because the Turks had long since overrun the city!

You needed a majority on allies to beat the Knights at Grunwald...as you needed always allies in your wars!

You are abit removed from reality but I don't hold it against you since reality is sometimes hard to accept for a proud Pole! (Especially compared to your most favourite enemy, the Germans) :)

We had the means to squash Germany like a bug

...no Sokrates, you never had and you never will have! That is just another delusion of yours..:)

But then dangerous overestimation of your abilities is not some new polish phenomenon!
Which Pole said in 1939: "In one week in Berlin!" again?

(Okay...Poland overtaking German economically is likely the current version...)
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
16 Jun 2009 /  #198
You needed a majority on allies to beat the Knights at Grunwald...as you needed always allies in your wars!

So did you, do you think Prussia could bit Polish Kingdom on they own?
You had a powerful ally - Russia and then Austrian !
Compared to Russia, Prussia was an weakling!
Well, after you become nation in 1871 all your "genius" of the all tribes together and with Allies did not help you in XX century - you lost all your wars ))))))))))

Which Pole said in 1939: "In one week in Berlin!" again?

Which German said (sang) it " tomorrow the World"?
You got to watch it man because Germans have a tendency to be delusional )))))

What happen in the future is for fortunetellers to know - and I'll believe one when I will be given a wining numbers for lottery ticket.#
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
17 Jun 2009 /  #199
Compared to Russia, Prussia was an weakling!

Says a Pole??? :):):)

Ah come on Iron...we Germans have at least the energy to put something behind our big mouths!
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
17 Jun 2009 /  #200
Says a Pole??? :):):)

Says history))))00

Ah come on Iron...we Germans have at least the energy to put something behind our big mouths!

Nothing to be proud of unfortunately
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
17 Jun 2009 /  #201
Nothing to be proud of unfortunately

Well...says a Pole! :)
Ogorki - | 114  
17 Jun 2009 /  #202
Ironside:
Nothing to be proud of unfortunately
Well...says a Pole! :)

Well have you?
Mr Grunwald 30 | 2,001  
17 Jun 2009 /  #204
Well...says

Bratwurst Boy:
Ah come on Iron...we Germans have at least the energy to put something behind our big mouths!
Nothing to be proud of unfortunately

Well have you?

Well let me clear it for you, Are you proud of it?
Torq  
17 Jun 2009 /  #205
This debate is quite pointless.

Every nation got where it is now through a combination of luck
and certain qualities of its members. If we look at history then
we see that both Poland and Germany could have ended up in
a lot better or a lot worse situation than they are now.

If we look at Polish history then we must admit that we lost our
position in Europe mainly because of our own faults and mistakes
that we made. We had a powerful country and we couldn't keep
it, because we were too selfish and had too much contempt for
the laws, and well-being of our country. If we could only learn
from the Germans how to abide the law of our own country and
how to respect it and serve it not only in the wartime but mostly
in the times of peace then our position in Europe would be incomparably
stronger.

I certainly hope that we are smart enough to learn from our mistakes in
the past and to avoid making them all over again.

We have to work hard, respect the law of our country (flawed as it is sometimes),
create more wealth than we consume and then pass it on to our children to
continue our work. Let's not look at Germans, French, Russians or anyone else,
let's look at ourselves - Poles, and try to improve our ways.

I believe that we have everything we need to become a successful, strong
and rich country. So get your finger out, lads - work hard, have more children
and there will be no force in the world able to defeat us again.

Rant over :)
Ogorki - | 114  
17 Jun 2009 /  #206
You pot smoking hippy!!! SNAP OUT OF IT!
Yes Poland had inner termoil - just like any other country but that was no business to her neighbours who took advantage of that termoil and systematically partitioned the country. Poland did not partition herself! It took three jealous, intimidated and ignorant neighbours who in a cowardly fassion ganged up on Poland to resecure their own place in Europe.

Just because a country becomes volnerable through selfishness - or whatever, it does not give the right for neighbours to behave like vultures.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
17 Jun 2009 /  #207
Just because a country becomes volnerable through selfishness - or whatever, it does not give the right for neighbours to behave like vultures.

Well....remember Poland taking a bite out of helpless Czechoslovakia? Or the carving up of the Ukraine after 1921?

But the "vultures" are always the others...right?
Poles are of course always right!
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
17 Jun 2009 /  #208
I think the moral of Poland attacking Czechoslovakia was, 'two wrongs don't make a right'. Many felt guilty after that sneaky attack.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
18 Jun 2009 /  #209
Yes Poland had inner termoil - just like any other country but that was no business to her neighbours who took advantage of that termoil and systematically partitioned the country. Poland did not partition herself!

There was never a single partition of Poland! This was a BS created by Polish "historians" to hope regain everything it stole along the way. How do call grabbing foreign territories as it happen with Prussia, Ukraine, Bielorus, Lithuania - "Additions of Poland" or even better "Proper territories of Poland incorporation"? You see, it is a simple chauvinistic part of your history. I have never heard of France in 1815 saying it was partitioned or British empire to be partitioned either. Because, like Poland, these countries invaded foreign lands, which didn't belong to them and eventually have to give them back to native peoples - either peacefully or forcefully. But these countries would never say: Oh, 7th partition of England or 3rd partition of France. You know why, because it is ridiculous. Poland chose another way and imagined some partitions. Well, it is funny and very "vulturous" on Poland's part.
Ogorki - | 114  
18 Jun 2009 /  #210
Well....remember Poland taking a bite out of helpless Czechoslovakia?

Czech troops entered area managed by Polish interim body on January 23. Czech troops gained the upper hand over the weaker Polish units. The majority of Polish forces were engaged in fighting with the West Ukrainian National Republic over eastern Galicia at that time. Czechoslovakia was forced to stop the advance by the Allies, and Czechoslovakia and Poland were compelled to sign a new demarcation line on February 3, 1919 in Paris. A final line was set up at the Spa Conference in Belgium. On July 28, 1920, the western part of the disputed territory was given to Czechoslovakia while Poland received the eastern part, thus creating a Zaolzie with a substantial Polish minority

Sounds like an even squabble which was settled reasonable.
You see even brothers fight sometimes :)

Or the carving up of the Ukraine after 1921?

The Ukrainians invaded Poland with the Russians with the aim of destroying her. The Poles defended and beat the attacks of the Ukrainians and the Russians who invaded her sovereign soil. Ukraine PAID THE PRICE - LIKE GERMANY DID AFTER WWII :)

If Ukraine did not attack Poland she would not have lost her territory.
It will never become more complicated than that.

But the "vultures" are always the others...right?
Poles are of course always right!

God - honour and counrty - always :)

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