Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / History  % width 489

World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World


Harry  
14 May 2009 /  #91
Sure , it was a Polish Government fault, they should know that France and Britain will not attack Germany during first week as they promised on paper!

Would you care to quote the document in which Britain promised to attack Germany within the first week?

Either that or admit that you are telling yet another of the tired old lies which make up part of the big lie which was first told by the Nazis and was then told by the Soviets and is now told by Poles: Britain was responsible for what happened to Poland in 1939.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703  
14 May 2009 /  #92
well,i just feel it is kinda harsh to see someone in enemy's uniforms,so i reasoned that way.

I do see your point,I was kind of surprised when I first came across Polish people reenacting Germans and even Russians,given the history between these nations and the amount the Poles suffered under both regimes,but,it is after all history now.We are all Europeans/Humans so its rare for politics to enter into it.

I wont drone on but I speak from the experiance of having been a reenactor(portraying at different times British(my nationality) US,Polish,Russian and I even for one event bulked out the numbers in a German group for a display) I can confidently say that 99% of people do it not for political reasons but more due to an interest in history and to keep the memory of the veterens alive through educational work.

The BBC tried to expose some "secret Nazis" within British reenactment groups who portray Germans,in the end they found a few Dutch thugs who happened to be in the same beer tent and a couple of drunk idiots who made off colour remarks about imigrents that although unpleasant were no worse than can be heard in any pub or bar in any country in europe.

and again,sorry for lenght of this post,but,I meant to add this last night but got distracted by the need for sleep :)

isthatu2:
Yes...

I think it sums up my supposition about the british attitude to germany(beyond the immature "hun bashing," 2 world wars and one world cup chanting nonsense).

I sort of get the feeling that any atempts at Polish German(DDR) reconciliation were tainted by being under an umbrela of imposed "Fraternal Brotherhood". I may be wrong,Id be interested to hear what the case was though.

While here in britain,my generation Im speaking for were brought up on things like the Paul Mcartney song,and films where "Good Germans" were pretty common place,even the "heros" of the film.

Unlike your side of the iron curtain this didnt seem like any political imposition or manipulation,trying to show "our" germany(FDR) but in a way what we sort of guessed from direct links with veterns who always made the destinction between nazis and germans.

"Our" Germans,were also,frankly,our first line of defense against the Soviet steam roller too,its amazing how many transgresions can be conveniently overlooked when you need all the freinds you can get isnt it?

Theres also the fact that britain,untill the 1980s had a huge army presence in West Germany,entire generations of british families grew up in germany in the 50s to 90s and that seeps through to the general population,suddenly germans arnt "beastly huns" anymore but seen for what they are,the usual mix of good, bad and ugly and certainly our generation has nothing to do and no guilt for the deeds or missdeeds of our Grandparents generation.

I know one thing,its got nothing to do with anything silly like "shared Nordic ancestry" or some "ingrained "love of empire building.

One thing that a lot of people find strange is a real fascination for all things nazi and hitler in the UK. I cant 100% explain this as an innocent curriosity in the dark and macabre,like some people devour every new book about Jack the Ripper or serial killers.Most of the time it is,but,we do,to our shame,like every nation in europe have within our borders certain brain dead cretins who forget our country lost 400.00 people thanks to the flag they seem drawn to. But theres also the curiosity with "the other", just like during the cold war there was a lot of interest in all things "Russian" here,the Red Army Orchestra seems the most popular ever LP if you look in second hand record shops :), from an attempt to figure out how "they" thought,and what the motivation was the same was true for nazi germany.

I mentioned earlier that Ive drunk a pint with an old wSS veteren,he's not the only german veteren Ive met who made their home in the UK after the war(he was ,by his unit not his actions the most "extreme" example),lots of germans did,and to my generation at least these old boys were just as "exotic" as the old Polish veterens or our Grandfathers occasional wartime tales. They tended to be the Grandad of a mate or someone who drank in the local pub(often alongside polish and british veterens,I'll always remember the 3 old lads arguing about Arnhem(the german hadnt been there,he was in the navy I think) but even after getting really worked up they all bought each other drinks and went on to cracking really rude jokes :) I dont imagine much of this went on in Poland so maybe it just seeps in that the majority of Germans are just as human as we are and dont really harbour any serious dreams of global domination. What will be nice though is when German students learn that they dont all have to cross the channel to the UK wearing "nicht gegen recht" (sp) with crossed out swastica symbols on T shirts to show they are not nazis:),Besides,to most brits the writing may as well be swahili and it just looks like a lot of German kids wearing swastika T shirts....:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
14 May 2009 /  #93
Would you care to quote the document in which Britain promised to attack Germany within the first week?

Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power.

Ironside 50 | 11,036  
14 May 2009 /  #94
Would you care to quote the document in which Britain promised to attack Germany within the first week?

14 days then!

Either that or admit that you are telling yet another of the tired old lies which make up part of the big lie which was first told by the Nazis and was then told by the Soviets and is now told by Poles: Britain was responsible for what happened to Poland in 1939.

I see you are learned in the ways of propaganda and lies.
Something from your teachers:

youtube.com/watch?v=nAh5mfkuAXk
isthatu2 4 | 2,703  
14 May 2009 /  #95
will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power

And thats the crux,sorry,it just wasnt in Britains power to do more at that time.
Just look at the figures for our armed forces at the time,or the fact that apart from a few things like bren gun carriers our army was almost identical to how it had been in 1918,the vickers tanks in Poland were as good as if not better than most of the british tanks of the time.
Piorun - | 658  
14 May 2009 /  #96
Britain was responsible for what happened to Poland in 1939.

So are you telling me that Alfred Cooper lied when he said that "never before in our history have we left in the hands of one of the smaller powers the decision whether or not Britain goes to war." about Polish-British Common Defense Pact or Churchill who by the way was pro encirclement of Germany prior to the war but by this time realized it was too late and upon the signing of the document by Neville Chamberlain stated "This is the maddest single action this country has ever taken". Face it Harry no matter how hard you wish this was not so, IT IS. We all know that Chamberlain was not the sharpest of British politicians and it's his policies that eventually lead to war, not Poland or some meaningless pact that you have managed to sign and through actions have managed to prove how insignificant it really was for Britain, let it go you'll sleep better tonight.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
14 May 2009 /  #97
I may be wrong,Id be interested to hear what the case was though.

Personally I was to young to remember.
But I read that besides the officially propagated "fraternal brotherhood" even then the inofficial contacts between Poland and the GDR were bad in many aspects.

muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/journal_of_cold_war_studies/v004/4.4selvage.html

No chance for a real reconciliation behind the official smiles and handshakes and hugs...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
14 May 2009 /  #98
And thats the crux,sorry,it just wasnt in Britains power to do more at that time.

Oh come now, you had the largest fleet in Europe, you could have easily pummel the Germany navy to death, you could in the initial weeks send forces to reinforce Polish harbors and coastal fortifications, there was a lot that could have been done, the actuall land based relief would have to be done by the French but there was a problem.

There did not exist any plan to aid Poland, France and UK had not agreed on any concerted operation, that in itself proves that neither France nor UK had any intention whatsoever to fight a full scale war on Polish account which gets us to square one, Poland got betrayed by the West.

Wroclaw_Boy accused me of moaning, i dont, for me its just obvious that next time around we need to look for allies elsewhere since the Western states are worthless as supporters.
Harry  
14 May 2009 /  #99
Oh come now, you had the largest fleet in Europe, you could have easily pummel the Germany navy to death,

You have already claimed that and I have already pointed out that Britain's fleet was in no way capable of sailing into the Baltic and engaging the German fleet. Your own navy was getting the hell out of the Baltic as fast as possible but you blame the British for not sailing straight past the Polish fleet and into the Baltic. Bizarre.

you could in the initial weeks send forces to reinforce Polish harbors and coastal fortifications

Yes, apart from the fact that British troops were not permitted by the Polish government to go to Poland to do that. I know this because my grandfather was an engineer in the RAF. His specialty was runway assessment and rating. He was supposed to be one of the first Brits to go to Poland but by the time war was declared, most of the bases he was supposed to visit were out of action.

there was a lot that could have been done

But you can't actually name a single thing, can you?

the actuall land based relief would have to be done by the French but there was a problem.

And a problem for which Poles will attempt to blame the British for the rest of time.

We all know that Chamberlain was not the sharpest of British politicians and it's his policies that eventually lead to war

Only a Pole could blame the prime minister of Britain for WWII.

I see you are learned in the ways of propaganda and lies.
Something from your teachers:

Here is the particular Nazi poster you are still singing from:
isthatu2 4 | 2,703  
14 May 2009 /  #100
you could in the initial weeks send forces to reinforce Polish harbors and coastal fortifications,

sorry,dont you mean days?
I suppose its Britains fault that Poland is largly very flat and difficult to defend,especially against embryonic blitzkrieg tactics. The time it would have taken for our troopships,which didnt exist untill the navy and merchant navy took over peace time liners,to steam to the baltic,if they didnt all get sunk by the german defenses around denmark and north germany,would have been about the time when Warsaw was surrendering,at best,when the defenders at westerplatte surrendered.

Mind you,this is all supposing Britian had such a fully euipped force to send at that time....remember,this is pre Commando or SAS days,we didnt even have Para's untill after the fall of Crete, so just what do you think could have been done? An assualt on a German occupied harbour? "We" tried that in 1942 and hundreds of canadians died.....
sjam 2 | 541  
14 May 2009 /  #101
Or maybe its this Nazi hand-painted billboard poster in occupied Warsaw ........
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
14 May 2009 /  #102
Here is the particular Nazi poster you are still singing from:

Yes, typical for Communist propaganda whoever disagree with you he is a Nazi.
Harry leftist with agenda.

There did not exist any plan to aid Poland, France and UK had not agreed on any concerted operation, that in itself proves that neither France nor UK had any intention whatsoever to fight a full scale war on Polish account

Polish government should know that.
Harry  
14 May 2009 /  #103
Yes, typical for Communist propaganda whoever disagree with you he is a Nazi.

The very simple fact is that you are using the same lie as was used on Nazi propaganda posters. And was then used by the Communist regime after the war.

If anybody is behaving like a Nazi and a Communist, it is you.
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
15 May 2009 /  #104
The very simple fact is that you are using the same lie as was used on Nazi propaganda posters. And was then used by the Communist regime after the war.

What lie? I blame Polish government.

If anybody is behaving like a Nazi and a Communist, it is you.

Well, look who is speaking, Harry who is using every trick in the book and lies to prove that Poland is not up to standards - his standards!
OP Wroclaw Boy  
15 May 2009 /  #105
A Pole here rasied a point here which ive been thinking about over the last day or two: He/she said the Polish people continue to complain and blame WWII on what ever and whom ever based on the fact that they live it every day. OK we all know its been years since the war and over 20 years since the iron curtain was lifted but the Poles are still complaining why:

Ther answers are obvious: youngsters
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
15 May 2009 /  #106
It is passed down through the generations. There's nothing quite like perpetuation, it was championed by the duck brothers.
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
16 May 2009 /  #107


You are missing a point here guys.

All this blaming thingy or as you call it whining, has a source in one prevailing believe - that if not for WWII Poland could have been one of the leading European nation.

It's Poland ****** situation give fuel to all kinds of resentment.
You may find it laughable idea but prewar Poland was vibrant and rapidly developing nation considering starting point.
Poland economy was better than prewar Spain and Greece and most of the neighbors excluding Czechoslovakia and Germany.
WWII destroyed all and communism finished it, almost annihilated polish elite and what you can see today is but a show of the former polish culture.

No wonder some people are looking for someone to blame and it has nothing to do with
politic

it was championed by the duck brothers.

OP Wroclaw Boy  
16 May 2009 /  #108
OK just sort Sokrates out and well get along just fine....
Mr Grunwald 30 | 2,001  
19 May 2009 /  #110
I see somebody get's to the Danzig/Gdansk topic again, it's allways been German but never truely Germany's!

That's what I think of the matter, allways full of Germans but allways pro-Poland or free Danzig/Gdansk.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #111
???

zum.de/whkmla/region/eceurope/danzig19191939.html

on March 23rd, 70,000 Danzigers protested the Treaty of Versailles provision concerning the cession of an access to the Baltic (Danzig) to Poland

In the Nov. 16th 1930 elections to the Danzig Diet, the NSDAP increased her seats from 1 to 12

The May 1933 elections returned the NSDAP as the strongest party in the Volkstag.

It became clear almost at once that the overwhelming German majority population of the Free State resented the concessions which had been made to Poland and their dismemberment from Germany.

it's allways been German but never truely Germany's!

What should that mean???
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
19 May 2009 /  #112
What should that mean???

It means that Grunwald couldnt find his ass without a map, Gdańsk was originally slavic, then Polish untill it was lost to teutonic knights in 14 century and even then it had a significant Polish majority.

Its only under the Prussian Kingdom that it becomes massively germanized.
Mr Grunwald 30 | 2,001  
19 May 2009 /  #113
What should that mean???

I thought of 1300-1900 mostly, after that it's all uncertain
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #114
Its only under the Prussian Kingdom that it becomes massively germanized.

It's your answer to everything..."germanized"...isn't it?
Deny the german history of these lands all you want...800 years!
I just find it funny when I read the Ukraine thread...Poland from Moskau to France, eh???
LOL
Mr Grunwald 30 | 2,001  
19 May 2009 /  #115
I don't deny! Just think Germany shouldn't be doing anything there, tho many Poles don't want massive immigration of Germans back there, resulting in another 1939
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #116
What IS Germany doing here? What are you talking about?
There aren't any Germans there anymore...it's a dump like Königsberg is! You can keep it!
Ironside 50 | 11,036  
19 May 2009 /  #117
Deny the german history of these lands all you want...800 years!

Whats lands and whatdya mean 800?
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #118
I don't see Polish - Ukrainian case similar to Polish German one... read previous posts...

What is more 1 mln Germans left Poland in 1970's long after the war ... life in west Germany was better ... so economic situation in communist Poland regermanized them.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,525  
19 May 2009 /  #119
!

Can I keep that quote and show it around for good laughs? :)
Salomon 2 | 436  
19 May 2009 /  #120
Poles needed space after being expeled form east... Germans invaded Poland and have done what they have done, with for example their Ukrainian allies... The fact is that people loyal for Poland (with German origin) weren't expeled.

Many left Poland long after the war (1970's) when many Poles were dreaming about drop of foreign blood to get pass and emigrate on west. It is well known fact.

Archives - 2005-2009 / History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the WorldArchived