Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

its ridicularse because it implies that aids cannot be caught once you are married


youre quite right - if i you are stupid enough to live your life by someone elses teachings then you only have yourself to blame


no - as you say, there ws nothing coimplicated about the sentence

why did you take offence at my use of those words...?

that intention comment wasn't the best. it was said because JP was being compared to hitler and stalin and I was saying hitler and stalins aim was to kill and the popes wasn't(even though he didnt but if you think he did) isthatu how did the pope contribute to aids in africa.

as i said in my seemingly offensive pani bacia post - it might not have been the popes aim to kill but through his actions he was indirectly responsible for many deaths

bubbawoo tell us how indirectly he was responsible.

because he preached abstinence rather than protection

if they listened to him would it have not worked to reduce the spread of AIDs?

Which can be taken up (pardon the pun if there is one) or ignored by anyone.


Which can be denied to others.

If protection is not available because someone has deemed it to be wrong, it is not an option.
So the punishment for the 'sin' of fornication is death by AIDS?

edit: that last sentence should be:
So the punishment for the 'sin' of fornication is death by AIDS, if you're poor?

yes, but preaching abstinence shows a lack of understanding human nature and a worrying degree of nieivity, especially from someone in such a position of influence. its a bit like saying if you dont want to put on weight then dont eat - a little bit silly


which re-enforces my point

I have sex and im not married. but you can't blame JP for spread of aids. if people would stop having sex and wait till marriage it would stop spread of aids. so if I get aids im not going to blame the pope. if I didn't have sex I would have AIDS. im responsible

no. we have already established that you can catch aids just as easily once you are married. being married doesn not provide protection from aids - has your church taught you this?


now youre confusing me. if you do have aids i suggest you get married as quickly as possible. apparently its a cure

idiot you can catch aids yes when married however your one partner gets AIDS. unlike when you sleep all over more then one person catches aids. so when married you pass it to 1 when sleeping around you can spread to 20. I don't understand how this is a difficult topic. the issue isn't if JP was being realistic. don't change the subject. issue is if he's reponsible for the spread. I miss spoke about that statement you said I am confusing you

youre either a fool or drunk

that is a central tenet of the Catholic faith. As leader of the Catholic church he could hardly preach anything else, could he?


wasn't offensive...I was suspicious of your intentions, maybe I did interpret what I saw as superflous language as an unnecessary "dumbing down" by you & wrongly pre-judged your disposition towards Polish people...my sincere apologies if you were just having fun with the Polish language on a Polish forum...a quite natural thing to do

don't say im a fool without explaining why. so I can see how SMART you are.

believing that if people would stop having sex and wait till marriage it would stop spread of aids is pretty foolish. you dont even have to be SMART to work out thats a no-goer

maybe I didn't say it the best. everybody remains celibate then they get married. how do those people have AIDS if they remained celibate. so they can't pass it to their mates. lets pretend they do have aids however like you want to think then only it would be spread to their spouse. however if you aren't celibate and have aids chances are you are going to have more than one partner. so instead you infect 4 people and those 4 infect 4. get my drift. JP might have not been realistic but if people listened to his teachings then it would work to stop the spread of aids. So because people didn't listen he should not be blamed for that.

so the choice is:

dont have sex and probably not catch aids

have sex with a condom and probably not catch aids

hmmm... wonder which one looks the winner to the average african...?


now i know youre not living in the real world - nice try

Think... It doesn't hurt...

it did for pani babcia

wait...

that wasnt your mum was it...?

k I agree so how is JP responsible. they could have wore a condom it would have been k or they could have listened to JP and remained celibate and it would have been k. pope didn't say don't use condom and fu*k around. he said don't use condon and don't have sex. I know what your saying because he wasn't realistic. but that doesn't make him responsible. Example I preach to the public not to steal but obviously that's unrealistic. people steal that's natural. am I responsible because I preach not to steal when im not not being realistics.

if youre the head of a church whose followers revere then you really should take responsibility for what you say...just like if you are the general of an army you should take responsibility for your orders

what's he to say use condoms when having sex before your married. come on be realistic. he's the pope. he can't preach something like that his alternative is that he preaches celebicy which if followed will stop spread of AIDs. the people who are responsible are the people not having safe sex or having sex. plus maybe the reason he was so revered was because his teachings though unrealistic were pure.

hes not..

its up to the govt to provide these people with education and means. but because
they are a poor country, its the last thing they worry about because there is
probably faster killers then aides ..

just like it is the govt of britian to provide the schools with education, and part of
that education is sex education. one which we hope our children will learn that
if they have sex, they should be using protection so they wont get aides...

a Pope is not responsible for making sure the whole world has safe sex.. my god
give the man his rest.. it is up to you PERSONALLY to either take or leave the information given to you..

If we are talking about good ways to avoid HIV then I can't think of a better way than that the pope advised. Rubber breaks. HIV is not airborne so abstinence surely works. Is it easy? I dunno. Never tried that method :)

The problem in some African countries are also local beliefs that scr... I mean having sex with a virgin (without a condom) will cure the infected man.

patryjca I totally agree with what your saying. im even surprised I had to argue with some people about something so simple to understand. Dariuz good point. What's this world coming to when I have to defend a person like JP. you should question, people's motives and actions but you also need to know when to trust and identify those who want to help the world. lets not be paranoid. JP was one of the few good leaders we ever had..

so all the popes teaching fell on deaf ears anyway. hes not to blame, what were
they doing before he came to see them? same things.


well sometimes we try to argue a point and both can have points but I see where
your coming from...

what bubbas point is, that you can still get aides married or not, because sometimes
the partener your with may not be quite as honest with his/her past relationships
and so therefore the risk is higher.. and also some are drug users, thats a high
risk right there .. most drug users contract aides from needles that were dirty ...
and your partener can also cheat.. but no one can predict that , you have to hope
that you will be safe with each other. but thats not always the case when temptation
knocks around every corner..

its a choice though, even in marriage, thats a choice we make, whom our partner
is, what we will practice as young teens to adults.. what beliefs we have, morals etc

Having talked to several Afrikaans in the Uk, mainly from Congo and Nigeria, it seems that even if Jesus himself would said to them to use condoms they would still have sex without them Why? Because "having sex with condom is like licking a lollipop through a paper" - as one of them explained it to me.

If JPII was so influential figure than how come he didn't influence those people not to have sex before marriage? This accusation is just silly if you ask me.


He did take responsibilities for the churches actions in the past and apologized for it's misdeeds the same as your government apologized for the colonialism era and all the atrocities committed by the British Empire in past centuries. I still don’t understand how come it is OK to blame today’s church for crusades and Spanish inquisition but it’s a serious faux pas to blame the Windsor’s for the slave trade? Maybe you could explain it to me.

Here we have clearly collision of socialist and libertarian mindsets. I bet that if Ishatsu and Bubba are fat then they blame goverment, because it means that governmental program against obesity failed!

Ishatsu, According to your logic, this is shame to be be leader of the UK for example. Crusades, death camps in Africa, colonization.

Crusades. Muslims invaded Christian inhabited Jerusalem and now Christians are supposed to feel guilty because their ancestors tried to liberate their Christian brothers?? Perhaps the Muslim should apologize, they are the ones who started all these wars.

Inquisition. Poland had also Catholic king and nothing like this occurred. Why? Because Spanish inquisition was prepared by Spanish rulers for their particular interest. Religion was just an excuse.

well, this thread certainly shows who's been blinded by religion - matthias, z_darius, Matyjasz, lesser - all polish, no

come on guys, you need to learn how to think for yourselves

Okay, Im not sitting on the fence here, but having read some of the posts, I can see both arguments, but I have to say that Christian teachings to simple people who are told that condoms are 'bad' isnt the greatest thing in the world - but also I dont see how the pope was responsible since the countries with the largest proportion of AIDS suffers are usually where the poor and uneducated come from and access to condoms isnt the easist (I would think) - education was late coming to these places so who is to blame?


There are variations on that one Mr M, its down to a woman to say "no", its not only Africans who try to avoid using condoms :(