Poland and Lithuania

Ethnic tension exist but such grant only add fuel to fire. Coal miners in Poland have not very good opinion because they were in privileged position during communist era. Since they lost their privileges they used to organize strikes where they act like bandits. Privileges not only make them unpopular in eyes of other citizens but also damaged their mentality.


I would rather expect Poland stop doing stupid things rather than others states begin to follow Polish example. I cannot blame the Germans or Lithuanians because they don't want to give cash to local Poles only because they are Polish. This is simply normal.


Do you really expect that native Polish or Russian speakers in Lithuania will speak fluent Lithuanian??

He is a nationalist, he wants them either to become 100% Lithuanians and feel the spirit of Lithuania and speak Lithuanian properly or they can sudd of to their "home" wich they don't feel that is their home or they would have gone there LONG TIME AGO!

This is a good question? I love it but I know damn well that is not impossible, I didn't use word fluent, I said sufficient, that means something different. But YES for each and every who goes PUBLIC!

I will give you that, you are probably better democrat than I'm. However this is me who still think that voters approval should be enough.

You talking a lot but you make not much sens, maybe because you talk about everything.
Let's focus on the subject.
Poles in Lithuanian state want to receive education in their language - I wouldn't call it privilege would you.
Lithuanians in Poland enjoy this right paid by Poland by the way.

Germans in Poland enjoy having MP in Polish Parliament - Poles in Germany don't !
I don't care whatever you call is stupid or not but I call it unfair.
I don't care what according to you would be an ideal !Its irrelevant....to the issue !

I care that Poland is acting according to EU law and international agreements on the expense of Polish taxpayers, and others don't give a fukkc about it and they get away with it.

You are dreamer or student:)


They speak good Lithuanian!
Waldemar Tomaszewski received his education in Russian during the times of Soviet Union, so your "argument" doesn't apply here!
As for leaflets - if what you say is true it is lack of professionalism and nothing else!


I think it makes no difference for person being interrogated/questioning :)


Why ?
Thats very realistic. It could solve most of the problems in Wilenszczyzna.
Its good idea for compromise.
What Lithuanian language - there different dialects in different regions.
There 3,5 mln people in Lithuania its about 3 mln of potential Lithuanian speakers.
So, what the point?
Why not Spanish?:)
youtube.com/watch?v=TlCVMnZP5v4

Your comments make my evening beer experience better. Someone has expressed liberty that we talk here nothing but sentiments. That is hardly disagreeable statement, but what elses matter?

So here I am tonight walking through streets of once Polish speaking city Wilno, going to McDonalds, buying beer, smiling to people I like, cursing our curupt and nationalistic government and thinking why things in Wilno today are as they are?

The questions that bugs me:

Are we Lithuanians really should feel foreigners in Wilno?

What went wrong with Wilno and Wilenszczyzna?

Are Lithuanian Poles Lithuanians? Are Lithuanian Poles Poles? Or maybe they are(is) something in between? One friend of mine from Poland ask me to find all possible graves with his family name in certain Wilenszczyzna town cemetaries and picture them. Two very agreeable Polish speaking ladies of age agreed happily to help me. They showed me brothers graves on one is written something like ‚Name Lukaszewicz‘ and on the other ‚Name Lukaševièius‘. That really gets into you deeply of how really complex the history of the land is. It requires the greatest care there is to go categorical about it .

It is not only Wilenszczyzna was with an air of Polishness but the whole Lithuania some 150 years ago? I mean many educated Lithuanians of the time used Polish as their first language and were perfectly bilingual. Apart from the Catholic church legacy with what else we left not to waste.

What about Polish government efforts to encourage Lithuanians to learn Polish as second foreign language (English goes compulsory in Lithuanian schools as first FL)?

---------------------------------------------
Mark where that can go wrong:
klausimas - a question
klausymas - the listening


Yes, but that is more about me as a voter, what I expect from a person who wants my approval.

Should respect local people and make Polish a second language in Wilenszczyzna like in
Quebec,

Nerijus
Poles in Lithuania are Poles.

So go forth and declare your needs publicly rather than shouting that we are discriminated from left to right in bloody Lithuania. Say and discuss publicly what you are and what you want to be. Saying that I have in mind all Waldemar Tomaszewski phenomenon. We were all ears to hear from him where he stands in these issues. He prefered to remain silent to Lithuanian public. Bold people where here to ask in case of war will you go on Lithuania or Poland side. Probably you have already answered me


. As far as this to be Quebec in Lithuania is not an option and merely as the self defence meseasure.

Sorry for that.

Discrimination exists!
You know it very well.
If you don't its because you prefer to close your eyes !

What war ? with Poland - you don't stand a chance!
Self defense ? Don't make me laugh, you were defending yourself against Poland and Soviets get you!
You never learned a lesson!
You try to act as if Lithuania were some kind of empire but clearly 3mln people and no so big territory and ****** economy says you are not so mighty.

So, in your best interest and self defense is to have a good relation with Poland - which is very easy, really!Who's aircrafts are defending Lithuanian sky? Polish!

Yet, you should stop discrimination, return land to the owners and let Polish schools be!
On the top of it you should grant in Wilenszczyzna region equal rights to Polish language!

Stop teaching Lithuanians hate for Poles ( sayings about bullets to kill Poles etc) .

You talk about loyalty to the state!
I ask you - why should Poles be loyal to the Lithuanian state?

You say state what you want - and then I'm sorry you cannot have it!
Don't be sorry - I'm sorry that you are defending nationalism from 30s!
Do you know about Neo-Nazi organizations who quite openly are active across the state ?

Just an observation but if you changed the names of the countries in your post above, it could be Germany or Russia talking to Poland rather than you ( a Pole) talking down to Lithuania.

SeanBM

The difference is colossal, Poland never invaded and conquered Lithuania
I'm not talking down to Lithuania.
I'm talking sense to them!
He know situation of Poles and Lithuanian policy towards them, but yet he pretend that he know nothing!
His unwillingness to change attitude is prove for me that he is supporter of Lithuanian nationalists!

Hi, Ppl
You know, I read this topic with interest. I really would never have guessed that there is hostility in Lithuania towards Poland?! I feel no hostility towards Lithuania, even though my ancestors hailed from Lithuania (and Ukraine, Germany, Russia and the Tatars). There is no going back, we have all been moved about by Stalin, in the best tradition of the Great Catherine. There are now nations there, at home.

What I know about the dark sides of our history, is that there had been bloodbaths in the east, but I have a lot of forgiveness. This was, sadly the time when a sense of nationality was becoming clear there, and it had to be confronted with another nation to gain strength. I pity that it was we. At least we Poles had the many German countries as neighbours, they are different from us in a lot of ways, and that had made things easy for us to establish ourselves.

I think that the biggest problem is always the Russian border, and we all have it, so I see no real sense in bothering with hating Poland, especially that we are not trying to go back.

We are in EU now, if I wanted to buy my Grandmother's folwark, I suppose I can be allowed to.

I kind of thought that the Ukrainians disliked us for not making the Cossaks equal with Polish and Lithuanian nobles, and for polonising their own nobles. But why Lithuania?

Lithuania bothered our eastern border so much that taking their Duke as our King was a very good deal for us, he got to sleep with our Princess, not even the other way around.

They won. They also needed the military against the Muscovy, and got it.

I understand that the deal had worked badly for them when we've lost all importance and fell on hard times. Sorry. I wish that we were a big and rich country, and I believe that we still can. Look at Germany - they were in a very bad shape after the WWI, then they had put all the money in the WWII and regaining their honour, broken in the peace treaty. They were is such hardship that they had to rely on benefits. Now, after 60 years of good management and honest work they have bought themselves the whole EU, in terms of influence and riches. That is what we have to do now.

Or, what we could do if of course we were not so strongly influenced by the greatest manipulators, brothers Muscovites. That can be the reason why there would be any resentment in Lithuania speaking of Poland as we speak of Germany, even though it was a union, not a conquest. It looks a bit like stealing our song.

Regarding the Poles in Lituania and the same in Belarus and Ukraine, I think that the policy of our pseudo-liberal govt. is to stupidly stir and meddle, and make ourselves hated. Why is that? So that Russia can look like friends (and Germany is taking that chance as well as of late). Since it is not in the interests of Poland, I think it's done under influence of foreign services. Otherwise, it may be the stupidity, but I do hope it is not THAT grand.

At any rate, there is nobody currently to vote for that had not been active in the colonisation times. They are all soiled.

So, to sum it up, I think highly of our neighbours that were once countrymen. I wish we would do more business together. We can only benefit as a country from being your neighbours if you get rich, and I wish you that.

What is the sense of concentration on this particular case if you don't want to understand how it look like in general?


Now you change the subject, before you wrote about privileges.

While I think that Lithuanian Poles consist significant group of taxpayers and they should be provided Polish language schools if they wish. Even pseudo-democratic (representative democracy) state theoretically should not discriminate its own citizens especially based on their nationality.

Such states used to create state education system and this is key problem. I have write that Lithuanian Poles consist large group of taxpayers and thus deserve attention. However like with everything "public" this is just lesser evil and some citizens will be discriminated anyway. If for example 10 Spanish Lithuanian families lived in Vilnius government would ignore their wishes for sure and they are taxpayers as well. They pay taxes on education but their children are forced to attend to school which is far from their expectations. This is just another reason why public education should be dissolved and then everybody could spend saved money on preferable school or even personally teach their children.

In the end, Poland is not doing any special favour if provide Lithuanian language schools to Polish citizens of Lithuanian nationality. This subject is completely unrelated to situation in Lithuania. Lack of civilized policy in Lithuania, this is problem of Lithuanian citizens. They will not build decent state with such anti-liberal policy based on narrow minded nationalism.


Germans signed such agreement that they will let two Poles to parliament if Poles do the same? No! This is just another stupid initiative from Polish side and I don't see any reason why Germans should do the same. You are right, this is unfair that Polish taxpayers must live in such pathetic state. Poland is not "f***ed" by Germans or Lithuanians, this is Poland which "f***ed" itself and whinnying!


Poland doesn't care about own taxpayers, neither the EU , thus I care less about their silly laws and won't criticize anybody who share my attitude.

Policy regarding Poles were and is not the same in the Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania!
So you are wrong!
In Lithuania is traditional policy(since 1918) to discriminate Poles in Lithuanian state, their philosophy hasn't changed in different circumstances.
They behave as if Lithuania acquired Wino and Wilenszczyzne by they own accord, not by lucky coincidence.#
Thy aim - to change allegation of Poles by changing them into Lithuanians- however laughable it may sound.
They're creepers:)

I assure you that Lithuanians think highly about Poland and its people. I've been many times in Poland myself and this is the only starting point for me to begin any discussion of that kind. And as Ironside writes not everything is that good in history of your loved country as for example we Lithuanians feel and always feel bad that Wilno was given to us by Stalin. That is the biggest shame we will always have. And if you want we are lagging centuries behind you. I agree that the portraying Poland as an enemy somewhere in thirties was far from a good idea, but was Poland then behave any better? Ironside do you want to stand you own view or get a deeper sense what others think and why? As I said just try to understand why Lithuanians think that way (they could be wrong), without any labels attached.

Ironside - I am most delighted to have pleased you.

After consideration, it seems to me that the policy we implement concerning our minorities is the worst with Belarus. Idiotic, really. It would pay to lure them out of the Russian field of interest, not offend them. So it is possible that we are not so mean in Lithuania, I hope. But I have very little info. The countries that Poland seems to be the most preoccupied with are the USA, Germany and now UK. It would be interesting to learn more. If we can't have equal rights, I think we should petition for them.

Nerijus, is there a user friendly site about Lithuania that I could go to? I only speak Polish, English, and some German, though, so the options will be limited.

The only real info that I have so far are the onet.pl news about the economic success of the Baltic states. Apparently in Riga the life is better than in Warsaw. Is it also so successful in Lithuania?

I think, Nerijus, that by today's standards Poland was aggressive then. From what I learned it was considered the only option for us. (I am quite chuffed by the taking of Opole Silesia, though, as it was not a matter of survival). Of course, I would not mind getting the Polish cities back to the Mother. But since it is the EU now, I will take a train and simply go. I suppose that the Germans would not mind getting Stettin back, but we cannot move. To accommodate them, we would have to attack the eastern neighbours, and why would we do that just to please somebody? This is the shape of the world as of today. I live with it.

rp.pl/temat/38.html probably the far nicest resourse there is about Lithuania adopted for Polish reader.

kurierwilenski.lt/ is the leading Polish newspaper in Lithuania.

And here is 30 min. daily podcast of Lithuanian Radio English service:

lrt.lt/prenumerata/podcast.php?chid=234933&secid=2&flt=7345

What to understand? I know what you meant!


Well, you can call it privileges - generally!
But you have a point - I guess?
I thought you know what I meant by privileges :)


Lets assume you are right, what about return of the property?
Should we say "whatever is problem of Lithuanian if they want discriminate some of their citizen is their business."?


Who is whinnying ? Point is that nobody care one way or the other!
I think that least we can do is inform public about it !


you are being silly as if somebody care what you think!
But the fact remains that Poland got itself bad deal and something should be done about it!


What labels?
Tell me what you think about issues I have mentioned and I'll listen.
Otherwise your smooth posts are .....groove, thats all!

What are you talking about?


What did you expect?
Try to claim Lida or Smolensk or Hamburg and wait for the reaction - you will see that Poland behaved with self restrain... 90 years ago.

I have said what I have said :0
I'm all ears, now!

Again. If there is a group that openly expresses disloyalty to the state, we see them accordingly. There is no two ways about it. There is nothing wrong in preserving Polish language in the region, you can exercise that to your hearts content. The fact is there are still many villages in Eastern Lithuania where most people are bilingual or trilingual (people still speak Belorussian there) at the age long after the school. Certain person's feel and thought(you can call nationality) is highly predestine by the school one goes to. I can only to imagine what a dose of nationalism one gets in attending either Lithuanian or Polish schools in the region but such a feelings could be easily tune down outside the school walls. The thing is how to make them propoganda free?

Ironside the biggest mistake you are making is thinking about the Eastern Lithuania being Polish and nothing else. The biggest mistake Lithuanians make is when they think about it was pure old Lithuanian(Baltic whatever) land where later due to the course of historical and political circumstances locals gathered Polish. Neither is correct. There are lots of Belorussian villages in the region. It is common in this region that three different generations in the village or even in the house could speak three different languages to be separately by each generation considered first.

You are highly deceiving yourself if you compare Lithuania/Poles problem with Poland/Germans problem. Of course it has it's similarities, but Lithuania today doesn't exersice its power on once historically or otherwise right Polish territory.

What disloyalty ?
Your state is corrupted with legislation which is giving free hand to intelligence and special forces to spy on its own citizen.
You talk about loyalty - I ask you once more Why Poles in Wilenszczyzna should be loyal to you????
Loyalty you talk about is blind loyalty - thing from the past, in style of the totalitarian regimes like Russia or Germany.
You are not empire you have no hope of being independent country in this part of Europe without allies!
You should focus on your friends not looking for enemies, and Poland can easily be your best friend and than subject of "disloyal" citizen would have been very academic question.

You still linger in the past in nationalism of he 1930s - and you are not aware of it (if you are honest).
You should change your attitude for your own good.
As for others minority in Wileszczyzna I know that there also minorities in the rest of Lithuania - but we discussing main issue not a side onces!

As for language is often secondary to nationality or self assessment, as Irish or American speak English, yet there not English in the self identification sense.


The only similarity I perceive is that Poland's very good treatments of minorities German and Lithuanian is not mutual in each of the said country's!

It's unfairness of that situation I compare not country's - it should be tit for tat!


I could challenge that claim easily but I don't want to !
You have already sleepless nights:)
Just a tip - Constitution!
May 3rd

I am not calling all Wilenszczyzna people to be loyal to Lithuanian state. This is exactly for them to decide to whom they should be loyal. But nothing stops me to see to whom they a r eloyal to draw my own conclusions, for example considering is it safe for Lithuania go Quebec.


Thank you!


Oh, is it? Do Poles not expect Polish citizens be loyal to the state?


I am not a politician but I think we have been striving ages for such a cooperation.


I know what you mean and probably here you are right as always. Does nationalism in your view apply only to Lithuanians in such a cases?

I want you to consider this:
kurierwilenski.lt/2009/08/24/w-sejnach-i-suwalkach-uczczono-90-rocznic e-powstania-sejnenskiego/
I don't see anything wrong with these celebrations, because I understand why they doing this. By the way, what 'soldiers' are at the centre of the picture? Lithuanians or Russians?


Once I asked a Polish lady in Pabradė when she said that there a lot of Belorussian people there how you make a difference who is Polish who is Belorussian. We(they) are all the same, that what she said.


Good point!


Recently I visited Punks I felt very bad for Lithuania being afraid of Polish names being written in Polish manner or that street sign question. Stupid really! By the way Lithuania finances its own secondary education system, no matter the language of instruction. If I am not mistaken, I have read somewhere that it gives 1,24 to minority schools of that it gives to Lithuanian ones. Poland thinks it is too little, because minority education come at a price.


I sleep well, not just from the fact that I do not consider Poland as a foe!
Cheers! You sleep well too!

Labas Nerijus,

Have you ever been to Poland?.

Cześć SeanBM,

Quite often. Do you imply something?

No, if you pay for this, even indirectly (taxes) then this is not a privilege.

In other thread I read that some Poles demand to be recognized as a minority in Germany, mostly to get some cash out of it. (according to Rzeczpospolita daily). If so, they demand privileges indeed.


Certainly this is their problem. Lack of respect for private property is a deadly poison. Polish government should finally return property to rightful owners in territory of IIIRP. This is our problem, because today they may ignore property rights of some group of people and tomorrow begin to question our.



From time to time some people raise this issue, however you are right that not so often duo to certain choices in foreign policy. If anything, people should argue about unjustified privileges for some groups.


Actually as I mentioned earlier omission of Polish law is a national sport in our country. This is why you can still sign that Poland has not perished yet

!

I don't udnerstand why Poland respects minorites when most of neighbours doesn't give the same rights for Polish miniority...

Poland should just end this stupid friendly projects and treat neighbours in the same way ...

Do you find a difference between Polish people from Lithuania and Polish people from Poland, regarding Lithuania?.

Poland should treat all citizens equally, no matter how other states behave regarding their own citizens. State should not be interested about nationality of its citizens. Unfortunately this is impossible in socialist state. Such state always divide citizens for smaller and larger groups according to many criteria to run their socially harmful policy of redistribution of wealth. (and of course to improve personal bank accounts of bureaucrats) To give cash to Lithuanian minority or even open Lithuanian language schools, they must confirm that there is such special legal subject like Lithuanian minority. Politicians underline differences among citizens and stir ethnic tension by doing this. When a state divide people according to their nationality, this nationality start to be permanent subject of political debates (in fact politically motivated demagogy).

Of course it should treat people equaly but now Poland sponsors :

Miranda's band (£emks):

youtube.com/watch?v=VLhoaYOkbJk

Bratwursts (German):

youtube.com/watch?v=4_zo2l1oT6w

Nejirus's (Lithuanian):

youtube.com/watch?v=NboLWTNuvyo

and so on and so on ...

It is all sponsored by Polish state ...

only if they treat Poland with the great respect. if not fcuk off

Go Quebec on Wilenszczyzna
And then you are safe, not other way around !
Can't you see it?


Sure, the best system monarchy before Renaissances!
Central government is interested only in overall policy and people are ruling themselves and paid a little taxes for protection and enforcement of the locally amended laws.

I understand where you're coming from but to expect Poland to act according to your ideas is simply not possible in the modern world.


Sure, people from Poland do not care and view Lithuania in the light of history books about Commonwealth.