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Poland and Lithuania


Dmowski - | 17  
10 Jul 2008 /  #31
it was a fruity relationship in the past - we traded sausage-recipes with eachother faught our enemies and did switch our wifes if we were like it. now they do the same with fins and we are left alone to the germans and italians. I would rather switch wife with Lithuanians again. And I also preffer their dry sausages than salami. and they fight better than italians.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
10 Jul 2008 /  #32
And I also preffer their dry sausages

What about their pig's ear?

A little known fact is that all the pigs in Lithuania have very good eyesight. They have to because they can't wear glasses having no ears

Riots in Lithuania now.
tvnz.co.nz/world-news/lithuanian-protesters-clash-police-2444770
McCoy 27 | 1,269  
16 Jan 2009 /  #33
in Latvia and in Bulgaria too

Blg: Poland Lithuania protest

Ltv:

Poland street protest
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
16 Jan 2009 /  #34
Riot in Lithuania - Vilnius 2009 01 16 riauses Vilniuje
youtube.com/v/sh2yh-_05bk

riots in Lithuania, Vilna
David_18 68 | 982  
17 Jan 2009 /  #35
They sure know how to party ^^
Prince 15 | 590  
18 Jan 2009 /  #36
polskieradio/zagranica/news/artykul100086_Polish_Lituanian_rel ations_described_as_special.html

Prime Minister Donald Tusk has described Polish -Lithuanian relations as special within the European Union. Speaking after talks in Warsaw with Lithuanian Prime Minister Andrius Kubilius, Tusk said that friendship between the two countries is very durable. The two heads of state discussed problems of the Polish ethnic minority in Lithuania and bilateral cooperation in the energy sector. Kubilius said that the issue of spelling Polish names is nearing a positive conclusion. Lithuania has so far demanded that Polish names be spelled in the Lithuanian manner.

polishcanuck 7 | 462  
18 Jan 2009 /  #37
I've been to wilno, lithuania once 2 years ago and found it to be very similar to poland - krakow in particular. There is a lot of evidence of polish culture/history in this city.

The people there HATE poles with a passion so much that i thought the waitresses spat into my food at the restaurant (mmmm i had this cold purple lithuanian soup, it was good). Apparently everyone speaks polish but nobody likes to admit it. My 1/2 polish 1/2 lithuanian tour guide also said this - makes sense since polish/russian were the only official languages in lithuania during the commie era. I started off by talking polish to the shop keepers/waiters/people on the streets, and although they all understood they were very rude - i quickly switched over to english and the people were much more friendly/open.

I've also noticed that poles see lithuanians as being polish "z dziadka na pra dziadka" (err something to that effect, i can't remember the exact phrase i've heard poles use).
Prince 15 | 590  
18 Jan 2009 /  #38
Apparently everyone speaks polish but nobody likes to admit it.

false

sense since polish/russian were the only official languages in lithuania during the commie era

false ... most Poles were expeled from the East after WWII .

I've also noticed that poles see lithuanians as being polish "z dziadka na pra dziadka"

false
irishdeano 5 | 304  
18 Jan 2009 /  #39
still think the riots in ireland were worst lol

Never been to lithunia but know a few nice girls from there
polishcanuck 7 | 462  
18 Jan 2009 /  #40
Ok maybe not everyone, i guess i did exaggerate that i bit, but MANY understand and/or speak polish. I was there for only 3 days and couldn't help but notice how many lithuanians were able to communicate with our group in polish.

false ... most Poles were expeled from the East after WWII ...

True but many stayed. There were also some polish lanugage schools in wilno. There's quite a sizeable polish disapora in the city.
Prince 15 | 590  
18 Jan 2009 /  #41
True but many stayed.

Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania ( EAPL ) according to preliminary results enjoyed a decisive victory in the regions of Vilnius and Salcininkai in Sunday's elections to local government councils . Poles in these districts the authority exercised continuously for 12 years.

In the region of Vilnius AWPL gained 19 seats in the 27 -member council. Previously had 16 seats. In the area of ​​Salcininkai gained 20 seats to 25 , three more . In the Trakai AWPL probably lost one seat and will have five of them . In the area of ​​Švenèionys won three seats .

Well ... "Polish Elections Action" wins all elections in grounds surounding Lithuanian capital Wilno ... from the city most Poles were expeled but in sourounding grounds Poles are in majority and govern this part of Lithuania ...

From th other hand they know that Poland is not going to invaid them or colonise them and it is in both nations interest to cooperate... there is noticable progress in our contacts ... :)

Finaly they prefere us than Russians and they need allies ... and Poland wants Polish miniority to be respected and our common heritage saved.
Siegfried 1 | 100  
20 Jan 2009 /  #42
I know one lithuanian guy - very nice person.

my mother was in Wilno last year, she tried to speak russian - bad idea. when she speaked polish - much better
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
20 Jan 2009 /  #43
I am in Vilnius now, I used to live here for a couple of years and I come here often to work.
The first time I came here was 11 years ago and much has changed in that time.

The people there HATE poles with a passion

This is true believe it or not.
Most Poles are completely oblivious to this though and come here in their droves to look at the "Polishness" of the country. But the Lithuanians enjoy the money the Poles bring here.

Well ... "Polish Elections Action" wins all elections in grounds surounding Lithuanian capital Wilno ... from the city most Poles were expeled but in sourounding grounds Poles are in majority and govern this part of Lithuania ...

These guys are just in it for the money, they are not really Polish and would be considered Lithuanian if they went to Poland.
Most do not speak Polish well, of at all. Everyone here considers Polish and Russian to be the same language.
If they do not understand English, I speak in Polish
"do you speak Polish?"
"Da!"
????

From th other hand they know that Poland is not going to invaid them or colonise them and it is in both nations interest to cooperate...

It was not long ago when the Polish army took Vilnius claiming it to be Polish, there was no war because they Lithuanians were greatly out numbered. Although we are all EU now ;)

Lithuanians look to Scandinavia and Germany for systems and fashion, they try to avoid their old enemies.

Finaly they prefere us than Russians and they need allies ... and Poland wants Polish miniority to be respected and our common heritage saved.

What makes you think that?
Polish and Russians are a big part of this country but the Lithuanians want to have their own country but they have learned to co-exist with others.

still think the riots in ireland were worst

I have been talking to lots of people here about the riots and it is just hot air.
More like a snowball fight but some people did throw stones at the police and smash many windows and the police did use rubber bullets and tear gas but from all accounts from people I know who were there, it was not as bad as ot looked.

Most people were very friendly, police and protesters alike.
It was orchestrated by the political opposition as a protest and it just got out of hand later on.

-----------------------------------------

This is what I think,
Lithuania has had a very bad history, they had a much worse time during communism because they were part of the U.S.S.R.

Geographically they are screwed, between Poland and Russia, who tend to think very little about Lithuania, if anything at all.
The Poles were given a chance to leave and the educated and the rich did, the Poles that are left in this country are not all there in the head.

Typical conversation,
"Where are you from?"
"Poland"
"Ah, where in Poland?"
"Vilnius"....

People who refuse to assimilate and look down on the natives that they share this land with are no good in my book.

I know someone is going to say how great it is that they have kept their Polishness but it is not like that, they just want money and have too much power in this country.
Prince 15 | 590  
20 Jan 2009 /  #44
These guys are just in it for the money, they are not really Polish

They have Polish names, they vote in elections on party called "Polish elction action" and they win in ground around Capital. so many Poles have been expeled after the war from the capital it is good that selection wasn't so hard in souronding grounds ...

BTW. Why Poles were expeled from there. Wasn't Poland on winers side ?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucjan_Żeligowski

Polish and Russians are a big part of this country but the Lithuanians want to have their own country but they have learned to co-exist with others.

We don't want to take over Lithuania but Poles should have the right to vote on whoever they want, and have names they want, they can't force people to be Lithuanians if they don't want to be Lithuanians.

Lithuanians look to Scandinavia and Germany for systems and fashion,

Yes yes ... they entered personal union with Poland few years before battle of Grunwald ... they didn't want to be exterminated like "old" Prussians. BTW they had wooden shileds durring battle of Grunwald ... others had more advanced weapons and it was alwayas like that.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
21 Jan 2009 /  #45
They have Polish names, they vote in elections on party called "Polish elction action" and they win in ground around Capital. so many Poles have been expeled after the war from the capital it is good that selection wasn't so hard in souronding grounds ...

I actually do not know what you mean

by win in ground around Capital

?
But if Russians or Germans had such power in Warsaw, I get the feeling you would not be so sympathetic?.

------------------------

Vilnius/Wilno/Vilna
Behind the name


"1920 (Oct 9)
Polish troops, led by Gen Zeligowski, "disobey" orders from Warsaw's supreme commander Pilsudski and invade city, taking it in breach of League of Nations declaration of its neutrality. Polish occupation until 1939. It is later established that Pilsudski was in on the "disobedience". "

Taken from Here
henrypavlovich.com/Vilnius-Wilno-Vilna

This is not looked upon well from the Lithuanian stand point and this bit of history is frequently thrown at Poles (Stupidly, in my opinion).

We don't want to take over Lithuania

You may not but there are plenty of "Poles" who have lived there for generations who do.

Poles should have the right to vote on whoever they want, and have names they want, they can't force people to be Lithuanians if they don't want to be Lithuanians.

Piss or get off the pot, if you know what I mean?.
I would think you would not be so accommodating if there were such a large and strong members of Russia or Germany having control of your capital?.

I will keep making this comparison of the "Poles" in Lithuania with another country in Warsaw until you recognise what I mean.

Yes yes ... they entered personal union with Poland few years before battle of Grunwald ... they didn't want to be exterminated like "old" Prussians. BTW they had wooden shileds durring battle of Grunwald ... others had more advanced weapons and it was alwayas like that.

What is it about this battle in 1410?.
Do you think anyone cares?.
It was a long time ago and in fairness Lithuania has been to hell and back in the mean time.

But I do think you illustrate the common lack of consideration for the Lithuanians that is common by a lot of Poles (From Poland).

I personally think that communism had (possible still to a certain extent) divided you and many many more countries. Good chess strategy.

Have you ever been to Lithuania Prince?.
Prince 15 | 590  
21 Jan 2009 /  #46
But if Russians or Germans had such power in Warsaw, I get the feeling you would not be so sympathetic?.

Poles live there for centuries ... it is their home.

But I do think you illustrate the common lack of consideration for the Lithuanians that is common by a lot of Poles (From Poland).

Poles who live there have the right ot vote on who ever they want and consider themselves Poles.

Polish troops, led by Gen Zeligowski, “disobey” orders from Warsaw’s

Polish troops you are talking about were from Lithuania (so what kind of occupation was that?). This general was form Grand Dutchy of Lithuania.

Have you ever been to Lithuania Prince?.

I have been.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
21 Jan 2009 /  #47
From what I have seen in the UK, Lithuanians dislike Poles more than Poles dislike Lithuanians. It is obvious that they see themselves as being much more different to eachother than Poles and their Czech or Slovak neighbours. One young member of the family I stayed with in Lomza told me that Lithuanians are very bad drivers and they're generally a bit crazy (oh alright, he said pojeb*ny). My former flatmate, who is from and now lives only a few miles from the border, says that they have nice women. Typical!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
21 Jan 2009 /  #48
They live there for Centuries ... it is their home.

Germans lived in Wroclaw for longer.
You say it is "their" country? Many could say the same about Poland, with forever changing borders.
The "Poles" in Lithuania are not as noble as you think. They want Vilnius to be Poland, I think Lithuanians feel threatened by this.

I think you would feel threatened also if another country had such a narrow view and wanted Warsaw.

Poles who live there have the right ot vote on who ever they want and consider themselves Poles. They live there for centuries, it isn't result of invasion it is Lthuanians who were on German side durring WWII ... They like properites stolen form Poles in "their" capital.

Of course they have the right to vote and be arrogant and I would say unPolish but I am trying to get you to understand that Lithuanians do not like Poles (not my fault), they do not see you as friends as much as you think, in fact I have personally seen hatred towards Polish people there.

------------

I am happy to be back in Poland, I do not like Lithuania, it is a very very different/difficult country than here.
But I still see you are typical of Polish people and their thoughts of Lithuania. The young people do not care so much but Polish people are hated in Lithuania.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
21 Jan 2009 /  #49
It was not long ago when the Polish army took Vilnius claiming it to be Polish

It was Polish.

People who refuse to assimilate and look down on the natives that they share this land with are no good in my book.

They are natives there, living there since generations, often centuries, much longer than most of Lithuanians in the Wilno area.

they just want money and have too much power in this country.

How do they have "too much power" ? And what would you do to reduce their "power" ? Ban them from administration ? Make Polish illegal ?

I would think you would not be so accommodating if there were such a large and strong members of Russia or Germany having control of your capital?.
I will keep making this comparison of the "Poles" in Lithuania with another country in Warsaw until you recognise what I mean.

Sorry but that's nonsense. There are not many Russians or Germans in Warsaw... because they just don't live here ! But there are many Gerries in rural Opole area, they have their own schools, dual language local administration etc. I definately don't love that tribe but I don't see any problem with that. These people were born there, like their parents, grandparents etc.

Generally Polish opinion about Lithuanians is more or less like "can't say much about them but I think they are OK", however Lithuanians have a serious Polish complex, many of them seriously think that Poles have nothing better to do than plan how to dominate Lithuania. They should grow up.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
21 Jan 2009 /  #50
It was Polish.

Yes

They are natives there, living there since generations, often centuries, much longer than most of Lithuanians in the Wilno area.

Yes, I just do not like the way they look down on the Lithuanians.

How do they have "too much power" ? And what would you do to reduce their "power" ? Ban them from administration ? Make Polish illegal ?

That is silly.

Sorry but that's nonsense. There are not many Russians or Germans in Warsaw... because they just don't live here ! But there are many Gerries in rural Opole area, they have their own schools, dual language local administration etc. I definately don't love that tribe but I don't see any problem with that. These people were born there, like their parents, grandparents etc.

I am just stating what I have seen from "Poles" and Lithuanians in Vilnius.

Again it is ridiculous to suggest that Poles should be forbidden and you are barking up the wrong tree. I have never said anything like that.

Generally Polish opinion about Lithuanians is more or less like "can't say much about them but I think they are OK", however Lithuanians have a serious Polish complex, many of them seriously think that Poles have nothing better to do than plan how to dominate Lithuania. They should grow up.

And finally we agree, more or less, I would add that the "Polish" people in Vilnius also need to grow up.
Lithuania is a very divided country and would benefit hugely by more internal co-operation.

-----------------------------

Things are changing in Lithuania but much too slowly for me.
Attitudes of the young people in Lithuania are much better than that of thier parents, there seems to be a generation gap or two, between the young and their parents or generally anyone over 35 and under.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
21 Jan 2009 /  #51
Germans lived in Wroclaw for longer.
You say it is "their" country?

Not much longer... No, of course It's not their country - there's more Vietnamise there than Gerries. Besides, which country ? Last time I checked Wrocław was a city.

I think you would feel threatened also if another country had such a narrow view and wanted Warsaw.

Which country ? Which narrow view ? Show me any hostility of Poland toward Lithuania after they regained independence.

I am trying to get you to understand that Lithuanians do not like Poles

These few Poles, who have any interest in Lithuania know that... but I don't get your point... It is our fault that they don't like us ? In my opinion they are a young country and need to grow up, If in 15-20 years they won't give up that shit then we should fuck them hard.

That is silly.

What is silly ? I wanted you to explain your point.

And finally we agree, more or less, I would add that the "Polish" people in Vilnius also need to grow up.

Maybe, I don't know, that's not really my poblem, these people are Lithuanian citizens and Lithuanians out of their own internal problems are making anti-Poland shit.
Prince 15 | 590  
21 Jan 2009 /  #52
Of course they have the right to vote and be aragont and I would say unPolish but I am trying to get you to understand that Lithuanians do not like Poles (not my fault), they do not see you as friends as much as you think, in fact I have personally seen hatred towards Polish people there.

The most interesting fact is that Wilno was in 90 % Polish before the war. Now there is more or less 50% of Poles in this region ... rest was expeled after the war, actualy most of buildings there has been build by people who were expeled or vote "Polish". I am just thining about the reason ... why Poles were punished for being on allies side.

They can't make ethic cleaning there. Miniorities in Europe have the right to their language in offices ,in schools, for their original names, for biligual sings on roads. Poles are not immigrants there.

Polish people are hated in Lithuania.

In my opinion 50% of people in Wilno region love Poland. :) Just joking ...
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
21 Jan 2009 /  #53
which country ? Last time I checked Wrocław was a city.

they were two separate sentences and a quote from Princes statement.

Which country ? Which narrow view ? Show me any hostility of Poland toward Lithuania after they regained independence.

Not true.
I would really like you to understand this one thing.

"Poles" from Lithuania want control of Vilnius.
I have seen political hostility from Lithuanian "Poles" to Lithuanians in Vilnius but not from Poles from Poland.

but I don't get your point... It is our fault that they don't like us ?

That is not my point.
I am only saying my observations, nothing else.
From the Polish people, here in Poland, I have spoken to, they have no idea that their are hostilities towards them in Lithuanian.
I will again make a distinction between Lithuanians, "Poles" from Lithuania and Poles from Poland.

In my opinion they are a young country and need to grow up, If in 15-20 years they won't give up that shit then we should fuck them hard.

I do not want anyone to think I give a shit, I really disliked living there and I could care less about the place, to be honest but that is not the discussion.

Although it must be pointed out that the "Poles" from Lithuania are nothing like any of the Poles I have met from here (i.e. Poland).

In my opinion 50% of people in Wilno region love Poland. :) Just joking ...

We can take other examples,
Ireland - England.
New Zealand - Australia
A basic one way rivalry.
Big country little country.

But the Lithuanians (over 35) have a lot of hate to go round and although I do not wish to be seen as defending them, I must admit they have had a difficult time, from my observations I would say a much worse time than Poland.

I know it is a bit silly of me to compare suffering but it is so evident there.

-----------------------------------------------------

why Poles were punished for being on allies side.

I could be wrong but i do not think it was the Lithuanians who expelled the Polish but it was the Russians, for fear of the Poles Western Liberal ideals?.

They can't make ethic cleaning there. Miniorities in Europe have the right to their language in offices ,in schools, for their original names, for biligual sings on roads. Poles are not immigrants there.

True but Lithuanian bureaucracy does not need any more complications, trust me on that one ;)

The population of Lithuania stands at 3.3662 million, 84.6% of whom are ethnic Lithuanians who speak Lithuanian which is the official language of the country. Several sizable minorities exist, such as Poles (6.3%), Russians (5.1%), and Belarusians (1.1%).[32]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania#Demographics

Poles are the largest minority, concentrated in southeast Lithuania (the Vilnius region). Russians are the second largest minority, concentrated mostly in two cities. They constitute sizeable minorities in Vilnius (14%)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania#Demographics
Prince 15 | 590  
21 Jan 2009 /  #54
Poles are the largest minority, concentrated in southeast Lithuania (the Vilnius region)

Akcja Wyborcza Polaków na Litwie (AWPL) według wstępnych wyników odniosła zdecydowane zwycięstwo w rejonach wileńskim i solecznickim w niedzielnych wyborach do rad samorządowych. Polacy w tych okręgach sprawują nieprzerwanie władzę 12 lat.

Well ... again since 12 years ... Polish miniority wins elections in this region. So more than 50% of people ... Well it is big enought miniority to have rights like other tinny miniorities in other European countries. The most interesting fact is that Poles are hosts for Lithuanians from different parts of regon who moved to this "empty" houses after the war...
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
22 Jan 2009 /  #55
But "rejon wileński" means rural areas around Wilno, not the city itself.
Prince 15 | 590  
22 Jan 2009 /  #56
Yes ... but it doesn't change the facts ... I know how many of my friends have roots in Poland. Polish miniority should have the same rights as tinny Lusatian miniority in east Germany. As to history of the city ... it is enought to look on history of major buildings there.

Lets have a look on their university

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_University

In 1568, the Lithuanian nobility asked the Jesuits to open an academy either in Vilnius or Kaunas. The following year Walerian Protasiewicz, the bishop of Vilnius, purchased several houses in the city centre and started the Vilnian Academy (Almae Academia et Universitas Vilnensis Societatis Jesu)

The first rector of the Academy was Piotr Skarga. He invited many scientists from various parts of Europe

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Skarga

He was called the "Polish Bossuet" due to his oratorical abilities.

He was born and educated at Grójec later at Kraków

)

The Academy's growth continued until the 17th century. The following era, known as The Deluge, led to a dramatic drop in both the number of students that matriculated, and in the quality of its programs. In the middle of the 18th century, educational authorities tried to restore the Academy. This led to the foundation of the first observatory in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, (the fourth such professional facility in Europe), in 1753, by Tomasz Żebrowski. The Commission of National Education (Komisja Edukacji Narodowej), the world's first ministry of education

Educated Poles were expelled from Lithuania after WWII [2]. As the result many of former students and professors of Stefan Batory joined various universities in Poland. In order not to lose contact with each other, the professors decided to transfer whole faculties.

... Poles who stayed should have the same right as all other minirites in other european countries.
espana 17 | 910  
22 Jan 2009 /  #57
Good guy but he never learned English

Sabonis can speak spanish very well

Lithuania is Polish...

lithuania is russia and poland is a colonie from the Stalin's Soviet Union :)

haha people who likes basketball all knows Sabonis.

Arvydas sabonis was a russian and a lithuanian player .
niejestemcapita 2 | 561  
22 Jan 2009 /  #58
lithuania is russia and poland is a colonie from the Stalin's Soviet Union :)

that is so ignorant....why are u saying it? eres maleducado
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
22 Jan 2009 /  #59
Poles are the largest minority, concentrated in southeast Lithuania (the Vilnius region). Russians are the second largest minority, concentrated mostly in two cities. They constitute sizeable minorities in Vilnius (14%)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania#Demographics

Well ... again since 12 years ... Polish miniority wins elections in this region. So more than 50% of people ...

If they win elections does that mean the people who voted for them had to be Polish?.
I don't think so.

Poles who stayed should have the same right as all other minirites in other european countries.

I do not understand why you keep bringing this point up?
Lithuanian "Poles" do have the same rights in Lithuania as Lithuanians, so where is the problem?.
I was mentioning that Lithuanians (especially over 35) do not particularly like Poles or Russians.
It is a social and historical thing.
If you like I can ask Lithuanians why?
but it is just going to be a load of prejudiced historical stuff.

=======================

I could show you all wonderful photos of Lithuania?.
During the Polish Lithuanian Union, Krakow and Vilnius must have shared architects and ideas about the two cities.
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544  
22 Jan 2009 /  #60
It's always interesting to get to know what other people think about you and how they view certain events differently than you do.

Anyone else noticed how similiar is Lithianians description of their situation in history to the polish one? "Screwed between Poland and Russia.." Just replace Poland with Germany and there you go. :)

I could explain the whole situation but to do that i would have to "make a few century trip back in time" and I'm not sure if anyone here really is interested in it.

On the whole though, as much as I don't agree with this "screwed between Poland and Russia" attitude I must admit I really do understand why they feel upset and threatened by the Polish minority issues in their country. Show me a Pole who doesn't get excited whenever he hears the name Erika Steinbach.

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