Poland and Lithuania

Hi there. Lithuania is a great country. Keep up your old and fantastic culture and language.


Majority here are unable of doing that. Also they are not interested in making themselves good, they prefer to make to others bad. These people live in mythical state of mind with some ridiculous pretense on the First Constitution in Europe or proto-type of EU. Again, big mouths, small brains.

I wish all the best to Lithuania. Salut from Ukraine.

As of right now, Belarusians live in a semi-communist dictatorship and they've got more pressing problems on their hand than historical self-reflection. You can bet your 5 litai that if Belarus becomes a free, independent country, Belarusians will be much more vocal about reclaiming GDL (*).


Is this your first time online? In case you haven't noticed: the anonymity of the Internet brings out the mean streak in most people, because there are no penalties that curb such behavior in real life. Aggressive voices are overrepresented in all online discussions, but they don't reflect real life. Just disregard them and concentrate on those who engage in rational debate.


Can you please save the puzzle games for your kids' after-school program? People have busy lives and have no time to figure out someone else's obtuse hints. If there's something on your mind, spell it out in clear, plain English, so that it can be discussed.


False analogy. PL/Commonwealth (CW) and modern Lithuania/GDL are not equivalent. Poland's case as the heir to CW is much stronger, because of the historical convergence towards Polish culture and language in the CW, away from other ethnic components. It was the non-Polish nobles in the Commonwealth who went through a widespread and willing process of Polonization, not the other way around. The cases of Polish nobles becoming "Lithuanized" or "Ruthenized" are non-existent. In GDL, the historical development over time points in precisely the opposite direction: away from its Baltic origins, almost down to the point of extinction. For this reason, Poland can be seen as the "target" towards which CW was converging over time. Lithuania cannot be seen as the "target" towards which GDL was converging over time. Quite the opposite.


What drives Polish people crazy are real estate prices and the antics of Polish politicians, not what Lithuanians think. You're severely overestimating Polish interest in Lithuania.


You're quite right and notice the word "adoption" in your own wording. The Sejm MPs from both the Crown and the ex-GDL freely accepted the 3rd May Constitution, without any need for Crown troops to march into the ex-GDL to enforce this arrangement. You, as a modern nationalist Lithuanian may not like it, but that's exactly how things played out.


Which constitution in Europe preceded 3rd May, 1791? Please give a specific example.

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(*) Another misnomer is to call the historical Ruthenians ( "Rusini" ) "Belorusians" or "Ukrainians". The modern nations of Belarus and Ukraine didn't exist during CW's era and their formation was a 2-3 centuries off into the future. Any Eastern Slav within the boundaries of the CW was simply a Ruthenian ( "Rusin" ). Any Eastern Slav outside the CW was a Moscovian ( "Moskal" ). If you travelled back in time and stepped into a tavern in the 17th CW and introduced yourself as a "Belorusian" or an "Ukrainian", noone would have the slightest idea what you're talking about. The historical Ruthenians evolved into many ethnic groups: Belorusians, Ukrainians, Rusyns, Boikos, Lemkos, etc. The modern-day Belorusians are probably the closest thing there is as far as descendands of the Ruthenians, but they're not the same. There's a similar disparity betwen modern-day Ukrainians and the historical Cossacks. It's true that most descendants of Cossacks live in modern day Ukraine. But the historical Cossacks had no modern-day "Ukrainian" agenda. They had a class agenda related to their marginalized social status in the CW. They were an ethnic mixture of disenfranchised peasants, mercenaries, nomads, outlaws, etc, not a Petri dish proto-"Ukrainian" nation.

I don't know what Polish people think about Lithuania but my family and I and quite a few people I know in the US like Lithuanians.

Ysveykata, lol

"Target" towards which CW was converting over time? Haha. What is that? Some new theory of national "targeting" being developed by a new "historian" here. I haven't seen more preposterous statement in my life. Lithuania wasn't a "target" (what in hell does it mean?), but Poland was conceived by Mieszko or some other Zigimund and he set the course into the future, making a "target": "Right now we are CW, but in a couple of centuries we will be Poland" ;) How did it happen that Lithuania has its own culture and language, its own traditions which go back centuries and centuries? Your reasoning is not even funny. It is sad.


Petri dish? Did you have a concussion or read your first book on biology? Where have you seen a nation that is being developed untouched by other ethnicities? Was your country "targeted" in Petri dish, isolated from any influences from outside and right now Poland is something else but country were there is an ethnic mixture of peasants, mercenaries, nomads, outlaws, retards, scientists etc.? Do you want to say that Poland have or had neither of these? Or "proto" can only be said about CW in regards to Poland? You are ridiculous.


What a statement! Bravo! So you have to have some "agenda" to belong to a certain ethnic group? Did CW Poles have a modern-day "Polish" agenda? ;)


Pylyp Orlyk's Constitution of 1710, 81 years before CW's.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Pylyp_Orlyk

The "target" is shorthand for the system upon which a civilization converges over time. The "target" of Western civilization is the modern, liberal, free-market democracy (LFMD). Read The End of History by Fukuyama or The Clash of Civilizations by Huntington. Just as you can analyze Western history and observe the overall trend toward LFMD, you can analyze CW's history between 1384-1795 and observe the overall drift towards Polish culture and state, away from others.

No one made the claim that there was a deliberate plan made by Polish monarchs to that effect. These are your words. Similarly, neither Pericles, nor de Toqueville, nor Adam Smith, nor anyone else who contributed to the development of LFMD over centuries can be said to have had LFMD as a specific, defined goal in their minds. Yet when you analyze history in hindsight, the existence of "targets" such as LFMD becomes obvious. They exist regardless of whether people who live within that civilization are conscious of them or not.

Our Lithuanian friend was quite right when he said above that if it hadn't been for Partitions, he'd be speaking Polish today. That's exactly what would have happened, if CW had been left alone. He seems to have no trouble grasping the concept of the historical "target" towards which CW was headed.



Since when do rulers write constitutions? That's not a constitution, that's a decree ("rule of law issued by a head of state") or an edict ("an announcement of a law, often associated with monarchism"), akin to the Code of Hammurabi. We're talking about democratic constitutions, passed by elected representatives of a nation, such as the Continental Congress in the US in 1787 or the Sejm of the CW in 1791. If Hitler issued a decree in 1943 and called it "The Great and Fair Constitution of Happy German People", that wouldn't qualify it as one, despite its lovely name. Again: can you name a democratic constitution in Europe prior to 1791?


What's with all these ad hominem? Are you able to engage in a sensible, civilized discussion? Calm down, take a nap if you need to, and if you have something constructive left to say afterwards, say it.

Thank equinox and Nathan, I appreciate your comments!


True, but what I meant is a little bit different.They are lacking their own historical myth with which they could stick and go to masses. "Lithuania's history" already have been taught a hundred or so years at schools, so it goes all-in-one with Lithuanian's identity very strongly. So, that is where Lithuania has the upper hand. I personally think they are already silently gave up and concentrating more on WWII myth.


THANK YOU!


CHEERS!


True, but that is not the only formula there is.



I like this. They were far from extinction, they were IGNORED! Their social status allowed that treatment.


That impression I've got from Radio where Polish historians talked why we cannot publish one history for Polish and Lithuanian schools. Reasons why not were mentioned as different take on Union of Lublin and that kind of think.

Ok, here you mention a "target" towards which historically we were all converging - Liberal, Free-Market Democracy. As far as I can see, it says nothing about cultural, linguistic or other ethnical components you are trying to apply to this so-called "convergence". As I mentioned before in 17th century Ukraine had more primary schools than Moskovy and CW together taken. Later on they were forcefully destroyed or converted in Moskovite or Polish Jesuit schools which taught your dialects. Forceful religious installation on the newly conquered territories and religious freedom your constitution claims is usual fairy-tale story. If you invade a country and make your language the only acceptable form to work and deal business in, the upper classes, which usually are after money, will switch like a haircut. Peasants and small merchants remained unfallible carriers of Lithuanian and Ukrainian cultures and languages through centuries, though. If you are willing to call this as your "widespread and willing convergence process" - well, you are entitled to have an opinion. Btw, if you could give a link to cultural and religious target convergence, it would be greatly appreciated. Let's not mix free-market and language or if we do, then some scientific support might be of value.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution


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I thought you were a human, no? ;)

Equinox, would you also give me an answer about your Petri dish theory of Polish nation convergence and about modern-day Polish agenda CW had in the past. Any documents or testimonies? How was your drift away from other nations different from other nations' drifts?

State schools are the tools of brainwashing and propaganda especially in the chauvinistic and corrupted state such as Lithuania

Commonwealth was a very good for GDL and you don' t agree with it because Lithuania (entity know today) started its existence in 1918 as a result of partition.

I don't understand your surprise, people native to area around Wilno view migrants into those land as occupants - specially when those migrants don't respect them and their culture.

Anyway the most important question is :
Why on this area reprivatization is not an option - is discrimination!

What about Polish state schools? You really believe they tell you the truth and nothing but the truth?

But Lithuania doesn't started somewhere in 1918 or 1992. It has it's own deep history long before the Commonwealth started to exist. What argument I could accept is what historical period for Lithuania is more important in forming the nation that is today the Commonwealth or prior Commonwealth.

If you want to argue the fact that modern Lithuania is mistakenly taken as successor of GDL think a minute about this. GDL for years was considered by the West as none Christian country. Why? Most Ruthenians that made up the biggest share of GDL population were already Christians. Simply, because Lithuanians and Samogitians weren't! Rulers weren't.

What about state schools on the moon?


Everything that exists for some period of time has it's own deep history.
People formed cultures and social bonds which in turn evolved into bigger entity's and become a nations or ....not.
Not every river flow to the sea!
So, whatever deep history you think about its has nothing to do with become the nation - manifest destiny is always written "day after".

GDL was killed by partition of the Commonwealth, on its area three entity emerged after 1918:
Belorussian factor - very weak and misty - I would hesitate to call them naitio.
Commonwealth factor - those natives of GDL who stayed loyal to historical and cultural legacy - some may call it Polish factor.
Lithuanian factor - those natives of GLD who decided to leave behind Commonwealths heritage and move on - building new nation, taking from the past what they deemed right.

Who is righteous?
The real problem was that new elites of the new nation set they eyes on the historical capital of GDL Wilno!
They claimed it as national capital of the new "reborn" Lithuania.
There was only overlooked problem 99% of claimed territory was inhabited by people loyal to their historical legacy, who strongly resented being forcibly pushed to embrace new Lithuanian nation.

Thats why Poles don't like to listen about poor oppressed Lithuanians and their hard fate during the times of the Commonwealth - because its bulls.h.i.t.e. !!!!!!!!!!

The rulers and elite of the GDL voted for Poland with their money, blood and feet ......
youtube.com/watch?v=ZwL1axo-Trs

Ironside, that is it. Everyone is taking from the past what they deemed right. Putting your strong language aside I agree with most what you say.

Piłsudski attempted to rebuild the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in a canton structure, as part of the Międzymorze federation:[26]

* Lithuania of Kaunas with Lithuanian language
* Lithuania of Vilnius or Central Lithuania with Polish language
* Lithuania of Minsk with Belarusian language

That is from wikipeadia, that is pretty much what you said. So still the feeling is there that Lithuania of Vilnius has much more to do with Lithuania of Kaunas that the new Poland. Lithuania of Kaunas acted indeed shortsightedly ignoring Belorasian factor, because of fear that pro Lithuanian population will fall into minority within the new boundaries. Only beacuse of this you can say that Lithuania put itself badly in GDL legacy case. But new Poland didn't acted any better calling it is own territory.

Poland didn't called its own territory.
In 1922 Parliament of Central Lithuania unanimously voted to be incorporated to Poland.
At the time Government of Poland would had liked better some kind of federation with Central Lithuania but its native residents wanted nothing short of become Polish province.

It was will of the people which complicated international situation of reborn Poland, not some mindless political decision.

New Lithuania put itself badly in GDL legacy case not only by ignoring Belorussian factor.
They choose to ignore facts, and forced themselves into Central Lithuania - bad.
They called Poland enemy - lunacy - bad.
What really puts me off to be honest is the way they engineered by the state schools artificial then and very real now - hate towards Poland and Poles.

Were they afraid of Polish culture?....if so, its does tell about confidence of "founding fathers" in the strength of Lithuanian culture.
And last but not least they put Vytautas as central figure of they new nationalistic mythology. I have nothing against him but for crying out loud that guy lost every battle he was in as independent commander and I mean EVERY.

To put him above Jagiello who saved Lithuanian from being wiped out like Prussia.....please:)

What more current policy of Lithuanian Government is no better - its citizen are being discriminate only because they call themselves Poles.
Don't take it personally but its the way I see it.


It was a very good idea and Piłsudski was an Lithuanian (from GDL) native of those lands - if he wasn't who was or is?

And he choose option of Commonwealth legacy - I still have a problem with correct spelling of his name:)

What do you mean? You mean so much ado about Polanization? One must agree that convergence wasn't that balanced at all! What do you feel about the Lithuanization? Is it not it going that voluntarily? Is it not that good for person chasing status. Once Polish was language of the status in Lithuania now it is Lithuanian. In Wilno too. How do you feel? The same as I when you say 99%, native residents wanted, unanimously voted. The current situation in Wilno is very natural for me as it was in 1918 or 1922 for you, this was not created by you or me. It is created by the some course of historical events which has nothing to do with our liking.

//Interestingly enough my spell checker works for Polonization but doesn't with Lithuanianization.//

Sorry? what are you trying to say?

Old constructions should be modernized for sure but modern state is a bad joke.


Because this is a lie? Commonwealth in comparison to the EU is like Audi compared to Fiat.


Sorry but this is Hegelian nonsense about destination. You wish for some kind of utopian LFMD and just recentely Karl Marx and his supporters wished for also utopian communism. There is no any precise destination, it is delusion. Fukoyama's claims about and of the word, it is philosophical compromising. Today you have representative democracy in more and more oppressive form (the rise of socialism) and tomorrow it may all fall apart. Politologist, sociologists and psychologist will write tones of book about why democracy cannot work on longer run. Some already started. There is a constant 'battle of ideologies'. Monarchy in middle ages in many aspects was less oppressive than modern representative democracy. Certainly trade barriers so widespread in western world (even in the EU itself) were unknown at that time. A traded could travel half of the word without any paper to sell his goods.

PS: I'm wonder why feelings of some Lithuanians about the GDL stir so much of controversies. After all this is not any formal matter followed by various consequences, just sentimental talk.

There you are, you are not saying that Lithuania has no right to exist as an independent state or are you? For me the Commonwealths dissociation into four modern nations seems pretty natural.

Could you answer ?


Nobody is out to get you , no worries:)
You keep Wilno and what you have but start honor your international obligation(ie. treaty with Poland about minorities rights, and EU obligation concerning minorities rights which you sign).

What more stop discrimination of Poles in Lithuanian state ( return of property - land, and administrations prosecutions for citizen who claim to be Polish).

Current Polish government is a joke but if ever Polish government stars doing its job properly - Lithuanian government can expect reckoning for all broken agreements as Lithuanian minority in Poland have every right granted to them by EU law.

So, you insist that all roads leads to Vilnius?

I do not share views, I mean about supposed rights of the nations to self-determination. This is nonsense.


I don't care about EU laws, this is matter of our own culture. No matter how stupid regulations would be in action in Lithuania, III RP cannot discriminate own citizens.

Its not about discrimination , its about Lithuanian nationals who as a Polish citizen enjoy certain privileges paid for by Polish government but in Lithuania Poles are discriminated.

Its disgrace and Polish Government should do something about.
As for EU law as long Poland is a member of said organization its law apply - you may not care but you cannot ignore it !

Everybody should remember that privileged groups are usually hated by many.


Sometimes (unfortunately more and more often) this is morally justified to omit Polish law, the same about the EU regulations. One must just be assured that this is possible to hide this fact.

Its general statement which has nothing to do with international commitments.
Its customary that minority's in neighboring country's enjoy mutually granted rights/privileges.

As our Lithuanian friend retreated this threat lost its attraction :)


Its childish, anyway I meant that whatever you like it or not EU law apply:)

This is stupid custom that should not be cultivated. The Jews in the past were granted many privileges and I dare to say that this was very harmful for inter-ethnic relations. This is always source of envy and backfiring assimilation process.


It is not childish, it is about money! :) If Poles would strictly stick to Polish law this state would not survive one decade. Approach to the EU regulations should be similar.

Nevertheless law apply:)


Its not stupid!
If Poles are threated badly in country x and in Poland there is population of x nationals then responsible Government apply the same rules to x nationals as Poles in the country x are going by!

As for Jews in the past there was no Jewish state - so your comparison doesn't apply :)

This is not a goal of IIIRP to care about non-citizen aboard, they don't pay taxes here. This would be interference in the internal policy of other states. Russia claimed that Georgian government suppress their (Russian citizens) people and used it as an excuse to invade this state. This is very bad logic...

The goal of Polish state is to care about interest of Polish citizens and this is not interest of Polish citizens to grant cash to some chosen and create ethnic tensions by doing this.


It does because this is not a criteria. I talked with some Hungarians and Romanians about Gypsies in their countries. At first they don't complain about Gypsy way of being but about the fact that they get special treatment.

Yes, it is. T'was of course Germans doing who wanted at least morally legitimate their invasion into Russia (WWI). If you want we can go deeper.


Will Catalonians in France or Macedonians in Greece share your views when you tell'em that Polish children in Lithuania go to schools where Polish the only language of instruction? Haven't heard that Polish in America or in the UK enjoy the same rights, you'll say they want fast immersion with the country they live and you're right. But are not hurting your children here keeping them as far as you can from Lithuanian language, will they peacefully be able to integrate into the society they are surrounded with. It it no brainer when young people after the secondary school do not know sufficient Lithuanian to continue their studies in Lithuanian universities. Why should we tax payers should finance these schools as we do now? You have your schools but keep the balance please! Look at the countries with the similar history to Lithuania like Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Latvia where there are sizable Polish speaking minorities also. They dream about the rights Lithuanian Poles have! What will be good for your children in my personal view is bilingual education, but here you are with your own thinking.

And stop talking that Polish government finances Lithuanian school in Poland, but one in Lithuania doesn't do the same.


But of course it is not for me to say how should you feel. Keep your common sence.


No not yet. But yes I was not on the internet for some days. But anyhow I found difficult to discuss with you, especially when you know what you are talking about. :-)!

Ironside are you Lithuanian Pole? If so, why are you not thinking about Lithuania that should defend you as a citizen? Never heard about Canadian or Belgium French complaining about


(French here).

the thing is:
Poles tend to think about Lithuania/nians with kind old times perspective- brothers.
After all it was Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Not Polish-Lithuenian-Ruthenian-Ukrainian-ect commonwealth.
Back then it was all about nobleman. Both Polish and Lithuanian. They ruled.
I'm pretty sure Kingdom of Poland was smaler of the two, GDL was huge.
Its funny that those areas that hated/hate Poles ,were ruled by Lithuanian Nobles.
example: Cossacks rebeled mostly against Nobles. They would and did die for the King.
also: GDL army did not pull their weight around too well. Time after time Army of the Crown(Polish) had to fix their messes in Russia.

When hayday started both Kingdoms( screw must be christian to be a king) were strong enough to resist Germans(real and true 1000 years old enemy). Poland fought for its existence few times already, and could not afford "loosing" Lithuenia who was in the middle of defending holy wars from West. But for how long? Alience was as obvious as not pissing in the wind. Together Lithuania and Poland were strong not only to resist but to whoop crusaders back west and end German dreams of germanized eastern europe for centuries.(enter the hitler)

Biggest, baddest entity on the continent for next 200 years.
Envoys loosing frickin golden horseshoes lol.
Only european army respected and feared by Ottomans. Respected enemy who became our only friend in the end.

Destroyed by its own nobles.
It was a fair run. Could be much better:
here I claim that PLCommonwealth of glory times was the ONLY country with realistic chance to (military wise) dominate whole europe.lol exept English isles.

but welcome to the suck lol.

To hear that today-Lithuanian history books call Poland : the invader, enemy,occupant is just wrong on so many levels, but it is not the same state anymore. Both of them.

200 years of being Russian slaves changed things a bit.
Lithuania went through hell end back, so
Rest, lick your wounds our brothers. Some day we shall rise again.

To do what?

Thats your logic I disagree with.


Create what ???? ethnic tension exists or not without cash grant.
And your statement is pretty unrealistic and highly theoretical, so let's talk about how its is not how you imaging should be.
And reality is that Polish state is giving grants for Lithuanian and Germans and grands them privileges but Lithuania and Germany do not do the same - thats the point not some imaginary thingy.


In the view of EU legislation but we are talking not only about EU law.

First of all after Polish school in Lithuania, Poles are speaking very good Lithuanian - so its common myth(maybe they don't want to use language in everyday situation) or a way you justify erg to close Polish schools.

Ever heard about Switzerland?
Every canton has its own language - why not in Lithuania?

As for UK or USA Poles not natives of those lands !

Are you comparing your country to Ukraine or Russia - try Zimbabwe and you can really shine :).


but I heard about Canadian French complaining in the situation that for administration employees bilingual knowledge of French and English is compulsory!!!!
As for Belgium they official language is French - why French people should complain about it?:)

If they speak Lithuanian better than Russian or Lithuanian better than their parents do that doesn't necessarily mean they speak good Lithuanian. Waldemar Tomaszewski for example speaks Lithuanian well, but he doesn't speak good Lithuanian. His election leaflets full of spelling mistakes that doesn't require an armed eye to place them. I heard him speaking Polish on Polonia TV too and his Polish didn't make a good impression on me either. I wonder why he is at all going public?

I'll give you an example. It will be good if you know some Lithuanian. How long doesn't take for an ordinary person who speaks Polish as first language in Lithuania to spot the difference between klausimas/and/klausymas. Better think of situation when one word is given. How many out of ten Polish language school graduates will come up with the correct answer?


This is unrealistic even to think about now, we wasted that opportunity somewhere about 1918-1922. When I say we I mean Lithuanian government made quite stupid decisions while negotiating and seeing the region in general. (Poland is a foreign country to me therefore I have no right to judge its actions).