Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 19

The only ones who want it to continue are the russians...

Given russians don't want peace Ukraine can either surrender, like you want, or fight back.

@mafketis
I wonder how many times a day people call you an a$$hole?

Surrender: stop resisting to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

Negotiated peace: the process that leads to the reduction of conflict, violence, and disagreement, advancing the development of peace, trust, and mutual accord.

Pretty big difference. You might want to get an understanding of just what Ukraine has to lose. If the US walks away, Ukraine will fold like chineese laundry in less than a year, and Z admitted this. A peace deal is just that a deal. Anyone thinking the US is not going to get paid back for being dragged into this war doesnt understand the US. Again, why arent all the EU countries lining up for peace keeping forces in Ukraine? My thinking is because in the end, not one EU country really gives a fvck about Ukraine unless it serves to weaken Russia. Its easy to donate to a charity, but when it comes to the heavy lifting, few ever get in line.

the russian version of negotiated peace is surrender (see Istanbul, see current demands)..

Do you think Ukraine should withdraw from areas they still control in Luhansk or Kherson?

Why or why not?

Agreed that western EU leaders have been mostly useless (Macron) or downright harmful (Scholz) Starmer is trying to step but gets no support.

@mafketis


I get it that you don't like Scholz (neither do I and I hope he'll be gone after Sunday) but the facts simply don't support this. Germany became under him the largest supporter of Ukraine by a wide margin. Something that would have been deemed unthinkeable a few years ago. That most of Europe failed to step up accordingly is not his fault.

You'll be surprised how many will be dancing to their tune. 😁

Except for Taurus.... because he's a coward who wanted to let russia be the only one able to escalate....

@mafketis
I think the front line should be frozen. Small land swap for the Ukraine held Russian land. Cease fire, elections, and then Ukraine can join the EU. That will be the basis of the coming deal anyway. People stop dying, and the world can move on.

@mafketis


Insignificant compared to the impact of the provided aid.

We need to rebuild the old Paris-Berlin-Warsaw axis....Scholz has been no help aka actively blocking that! Hopefully Merz knows what he needs to do now!

And we so NEED a skilled and experienced foreign minister again, a true diplomat from the old school who knows his stuff and has all the connections....

Last I heard russia was demanding withdrawal from the four districts that held phony elections to 'join' russia..... even though russia has never controlled all of any of them.

So.... what now?

I'm all for ending the war but not in a way that just kicks the can down the road a few years.

Also note, that the very anti-European rhetoric of Trump/Vance has not excepted Poland AFAIK (I welcome counter evidence).

If the US abandons Ukraine it will abandon Poland which seems to be (at this point, things could change) the plan.

According to Tchakarova (better analyst than this whole forum put together times 10) says the US focus is now on trying to pry russia away from China's teat.... and is essentially ready to throw all of Europe under the bus to do that.

So.... not cheerful.

@Bratwurst Boy


It takes 3 for that. Scholz will be history soon, but Tusk has not made any real indication so far that this is a priority. Maybe after the presidential elections when PiS can not use a closer partnership with Germany against him?

Let's hope and see....it can only get better, right?! *squeezes thumbs* :)

It is one of many options by all means not set in stone.
There is always a golden rule - depend on your strength.
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Tusk can't partner with anyone, especially with Germany. His credibility is extremely low, apart from that he is jinxed.
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so what is your offer? eh? Do you think it will go like this - hey Poles we like you now come here and form axist with us, we tell you what to do, gut!?
I don't think so.

Why not?

It could also develop into Poles telling Germans what to do....wouldn't you love that? ;)

Not enough...

Yesterday, Duda said that Trump's envoy reassured him that American troops are staying. He also said they renewed discussions of "Fort Trump".

Source: apnews.com/article/poland-us-ukraine-nato-e85429384b558ccebc4ead7116658619

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I find all of this quite surreal.

On the one hand, for years a majority of the western public and a large part of its chattering classes, maintained that Russia is a joke of country - representing a minimal threat.

So many people would repeat ad nauseam "Kiev in three days", "paper tiger", "strategic failure", etc.

Now, seemingly in a matter of weeks, things have swung wildly to the other end of the spectrum, where it seems not crazy to discuss a new Iron Curtain and spheres of influence.

How can this be?

That quote which people attribute to Churchill seems apt: "Russia is never as strong as she looks; Russia is never as weak as she looks". I think people had gone through a period of judging Russia to be much weaker than it actually was, to now grossly overestimating Russian strength.

I suppose fear is the driving factor here, but to me it's just strange how we can be having discussions of Baltics and Poland entering a Russian sphere of influence. Hysteria is dangerous, and can lead to unpredictable circumstances. It seems the golden mean is to leave Russia and Ukraine to their own devices, but simultaneously not sh*t your pants over some looming Russian occupation of Eastern Europe.

Two things cannot be true at the same time - (1) that Russia is Nigeria with nukes, and that (2) pealing Russia away from China is worth abandoning Europe for.

It's crazy to me how people ping pong between these two polar extremes without any cognitive dissonance.

As CMS Neuf would say, how can Russia dominate over Poland, if it cannot even control Pokrovsk?

How indeed?

Does this mean that people were being duplicitous when claiming that Ukraine alone stopped Russia?

Does it mean, then, after all - that Russia was fighting a 40-country coalition instead of just Ukraine? A 40-country coalition that is much more powerful in aggregate than all of the forces in Eastern Europe?

Does it mean that Russia does something more than just sell gasoline and engage in sex trafficking? After all, how can you fight forty countries on a budget of a gas station/strip club?

Does it perhaps mean even that Russian weapons are not so hopelessly sh*t, because they can still kill many, many people?

AGAIN - WHY SHOULD EUROPE BE SCRAMBLING TO DO ANYTHING - IF RUSSIA CANNOT EVEN TAKE POKROVSK?

I am so f*cking confused.

Well (1) is definitely true, except the nukes are rusty and don't work. You can argue about (2)

Explain to me, why Poland and others have to have urgent meetings about how to deal with Russia - when Russia is struggling after three years to accomplish the conquest of its much poorer and much smaller neighbor?

Russia cannot take Pokrovsk, but the feeling is as if they are standing outside of Warsaw.

Explain to me this hysteria? How can so many conflicting ideas exist inside one skull?

What is this schizophrenia?

I think it is because of consistent brutal invasions of smaller neighbors - however drunk and badly equipped your army is, they are still big enough to overwhelm Estonia, maybe Latvia and possibly Lithuania.

Nothing wrong with our rulers preparing for that and wondering how to respond. Being organized and professional is a sign of strength, not of weakness.

Simple. That's what dishonest scumbags do. .They use Argument A on Monday and Argument B - the exact opposite - on Tuesday.

"Russia is nothing" to upset you

"Russia is ready to swallow Europe" for Biden and USMICC.

That's why I have nothing but contempt for PF Russia-hating scum.

You're the russian here.... I thought you knew all about cognitive dissonance... talking about how great russians are while realizing what awful degraded lives most russians live....

russia can't take over Europe but it can do a lot of damage trying... since russia cannot be trusted (do you deny this?) it's best to strengthen deterrent forces.

You know that public sentiment is driven mostly by political propaganda.
Russia is weaker than everybody expected.
It was surprising how weak and unprepared for the invasion Russia was.
You always find some people especially if they are easily stimulated by propaganda who would go to the extreme.
It got multiplied on the internet forums
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Besides as far as I know Germany modus operanti is to shift 60 to 80% of cost and effort on Poland while loudly exclaiming how Germnay is organizing and financing everything, while irresponsible, emotional Poles are making trouble for no reason instead of being grateful for the wonderful German contribution.
Aslo, you need to have some offer, you can't say hey let form axist Ok - what now - now we are happy to have Axis it is a cool name we can sit together and sing kumbaya. BB it doesn't work like that.
For example, if Paris wants this axis - what about sharing nuclear technology and a few nukes as well for good measure? That something!

I mean, this is blatant MIC propaganda - right?

"We need to invest trillions into catching up with the perpetually drunk and ever dysfunctional Russians and their rust bucket army". Hahaha!

How do people not notice this?

My best explanation is that the majority of Polish man, deep down, are women with dicks - emotional, irrational, prone to pathos and unnecessary acts of bravery - regardless of cost ...

Are you measuring it by yourself? So far the biggest and laudest vagina on that forum is you.

Talking seriously Bobko, in other conflicts like WW2 and er...that's it, the Soviets improved over the 4 years of the war - better tactics, better equipment and better supply chains. 4 years after the war ended they already had nuclear weapons and MIGs with jet engines. That hasn't happened in this war, despite Putler sacking a load of top brass, but logically it could still happen, so we need to prepare for that eventuality.

Of course, it is...

As the ultimate cynic, I can relate to it...What I can't understand is the naive azzholes who buy this shlt, leave their hometowns to volunteer to fight and die 5000 miles away for "freedom and democracy" they don't have at home.

My best moments are when I ask one of them to define "democracy". From pathos down to "oh, fvck, how do I answer that" in two seconds.

Well....can't blame you for being so suspicious about Germany, can't I!

But Macron wants to....hence the quick meeting after Munich....the same our sadly-still-in-office-Scholz busted like usual....

There are alot reasoned hopes that with a new party/a new Chancellor in power things gotta change drastically (no promises though), with a real interest to revitalize the former well working French-German bond. Then it would be already two out of three of the new Paris-Berlin-Warsaw axis.
The rest is all talks, negotiations and offers we all profit from, which of course would include sharing and exchanges....and Germany as it is right now surely won't look down on anybody anymore....we are in no position of strength to do so...that would look absolutely ridiculous!