Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany?

well the german population once elected hitler so can you blame them for changing this?

I am just correcting false claims that you have made.


So fake news then. You are arguing like most voters of the AfD do. When challenged with facts, they'll just ignore them.


Now imagine how well the UK would be doing now if it hadn't commited the folly of Brexit.It wasn't the EU's fault that the German econony got dependent on Russian gas and the Chinese market.


Or makes it even more vulnerable to it. It is possible for a party in the UK to gain a majority in the elections despite receiving less than 40% of the votes. Sure this can be somewhat alleviated by all other parties uniting agains the Reform candidate, but that is not a long-term solution. And once those alliances break,FPTP means that the extremist party will find it even easier to gain and maintain power. Farage and his party were able to blackmail the Tories into this disastrous Brexit course precisely because losing even some votes to them would have allowed Labour to gain their seats.

FPTP is really nothing to brag about. It is an outdated system that for good reasons has not been adopted by any country that has undergone a democratic transformation in the last few decades. If we had FPTP, there would be already AfD governments in several East German states.

What is "extreme" in the AfD agenda?

It seems like everything, starting with the name.

OK, I got it. You are clueless.

Only plausible deniability weasels use "seems".

You aren't. You're trying to defend an indefensible attempt at a superstate.

And going off topic since you really are obsessed with that trade bloc. I didn't bother reading the rest of your rant except for the bit at the end:


It very much is, since your system has allowed neo-Nazis in the afd to hold public office and brought your last government down.

FPTP means that despite all the r*SSian funded PR, Farage's people don't even have 1% of MPs, nobody in the upper house and control of no cities.

What is "extreme" in the AfD agenda?


Grow up.

I am not the one defending the indefensible (Brexit) here by just ignoring the evidence brought against my position.


The only offices the AfD holds are those that require a direct, simple majority vote like e.g. mayors of small towns. Not exactly something that was brought on by proportional representation. I am sure you have seen the electorial maps, showing large parts of the GDR in the colours of the AfD. If we had FPTP, then the AFD would actually be running those states by now.


Just a reminder. Since 2010, the UK had 6 different PMs. Only one of whom has actually managed to last an entire term. One of your PMs couldn't outlast a lettuce. You had 3 premature elections called. Now I wouldn't use that necessarily as an argument as FPTP (there are honestly better ones who don't fall back on specific situations) but it hardly guarantees stability.


Which is fine and all, but it is not like they went into this election with even a remote chance of getting even a relative majority and ended up with less than 15% of the total votes. What is really going to interesting is what happens if they go into the next election with 29%+ (their current poll numbers).

With FPTP you can actually end up with a government that has only won slightly more than 30% of the total vote shares. And any system that rewards a determined, united minority can fall prey to extremists. Historically speaking, most extremists who succeeded did not get into power by convincing more than half of the population to follow them/vote for them. They usually relied on a sizeable minority of people who fought passionately for their cause until the rest resigned/ceased their resistance or fell victim to infighting.

Crikey. You really are obsessed with the EU, aren't you.

I'll not bother to actually read your post, only to say that everything's been fine since leaving and the political situation there is far better and more stable than other major countries tries in Europe.

Within the last month, I've been in your country, in France, in the U.K. and in Poland. The first two just feel so poor and run down compared to Britain and Poland. Less in the shops, nothing new opening and palpably poor infrastructure.

You also keep trying to deliberately distract from the topic of the thread because it embarrasses you. Just to remind readers, the topic is not the EU and not other European countries that are either menders of it or aren't.

The topic is re-emergence of fascism in Germany, due to the rise of the neo-Nazi AfD. A worry for those of us who live in Poland due to what happened last time fascists held office there.

What??? Why was Brexit indefensible????


What has that got to do with Brexit??


He is and especially Brexit......


I agree 100% with your assessment Jon.


A fair assessment.

Tacitus obviously has some comprehension problems.

He probably means well, however doesn't seem to have any problems with (and in fact seems obsessed with) the idea of a transnational superstate.

And I've said here before, if someone's foreign they should not try to understand Britain or how the British think and behave. They will fail.

Of course his last few very long posts are just trying to deflect from the sad topic of this thread.


I forgot to mention Belgium. There too last month. What struck me was that much of Brussels reminded me of the east part of Warsaw 25 years ago, only more run down. Plenty of fascists there too.

We sometimes forget that despite unification, some of the places where the neo-Nazi AfD get a lot of votes are not prosperous places to live.

As I've written above, the UK had since 2010 6 different PMs and 2 premature elections. That is hardly stable.


Well, more with correcting misinformation.


To Poland I'd agree. But the UK? Please. I have been
to Manchester and Birmingham.

Your initial question was how people in the West and South are reacting to the rise of the AfD. I tried to illustrate it how they view them likely similar to how comparable people in the UK view Farage and his ilk.


Nothing. Jon made the claim that the FPTP system is good for political stability and contrasted it to the system that supposedly led to the collapse of the previous German government. I just pointed out to him the evidence for that is not really there.

In fact there are reasons to believe that the AfD might benefit more from a FPTP system. They would no longer need to convince a majority to vote for them. A determined, strategically placed minority would suffice.


Almost as if poor, desperate people may end up voting for populist positions and proposals ... . Trump, Brexit, Le Pens voter, now the AfD. There is a clear pattern there. But no one has really found an answer how to solve this.

Even if Merz gets the refugee numbers drastically down to e.g. 100k. I doubt this would actually make a difference to most AfD voters.

There are no "premature elections", that concept does not traditionally exist there.. Nor is the number of PMs at all relevant; it all was one administration. And 4 PMs, May, Bojo, Truss and Sunak. Now we've voted a better party in and have a good one for the foreseeable.

You really are an upierdliwy obsessive, and I only now read the first line of your whiny posts. As you've been told, the U.K. is doing nicely.

But of course you're trying to deflect from the rise of neo-Nazis in your own country. Let's stick to that sordid topic.

Edit, I just saw two cities mentioned. Both major metropolises, in the case of Manchester, the southern suburbs are among the most affluent places in Europe. I was in Berlin last month. Grafitti everywhere, poverty level shops and junkies passed out in the street in Neukolln.

Perhaps if Germany didn't have such a twisted and imperialistic concept of nationality and actually spent sometime integrating new arrivals as new Germans, perhaps you'd not have so many neo-Nazis in parliament, determined to 'other' whole sections of German society as if they weren't part of the nation.

Na ja....there is our history....even you remarked about the "huns" in a recent post....would that also mean the ever growing mass of Achmeds and Aishes?

How do you make them accept their war guilt and feel responsible about the Holocaust?

And again, "The Germans" you mention yourself regularly, whom do you mean by that but a quite narrow concept of nationality?

Don't try to be holier than the pope, Jon!

Can somebody please explain what makes AfD "extreme"?

Read their program and you'll find out, it's on the internet.

Here it is in English...

afd.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2017-04-12_afd-grundsatzprogramm-englisch_web.pdf

... could you please tell us which point of their political programme is extreme? Give us the chapter, the point or the page where something extreme is written.

Thank you.

I read it and the word "extreme" was not there.

So which items in their platform, in your opinion, make AfD "extreme"?

...some more of the recent Faeser "report" was leaked to the german press....BILD published some and I have to say (and I know many Germans will agree), if that is rightist extremist/fascist/Nazi whatever alot, maybe even a majority of the Germans are.

bild.de/politik/inland/afd-wegen-dieser-beispiele-gilt-die-partei-als-rechtsextrem-6814cc8612ee6b68d1b826a9

No way the party will be banned for some paroles you can hear on every "Stammtisch"....not to mention that nothing about it is secret but quite talked about loudly, even the reason for most of their growing support.

When you are strictly on the Left, everything beside you is on the Right, even extremist....I think that is the case with the AfD!

The BND report is 1,000 pages long. It's quite a lot.

@Alien

You said...


... so show us what's extreme in their program.

Novi is already asleep, he didn't read the program. Let him prove that the program meets the standards of democracy.

Nah, Alien.....you know this doesn't work that way....the judges have the duty to prove the allegations! ;)

@Bratwurst Boy
I always take anything the left says, states or writes with a drip of salt. Excactly cause of this that you mention in your post BB. In Norway the party called «Rødt» tried to portray itself as youth appealing and fighting justice and fairness. Reading their party program however was like reading Marxist indoctrination, soon after their party leader was also caught stealing sunglasses at the airport (I was just imagining what he could steal at national level).

Always read a party's program before voting for them or want to find out about them. You might get useful information from it, even if you disagree 100%

....that all Lefties have in common! It's always about saving someone....mankind....climate....women....peace....always a big important thing. So many nice words....how can someone have something against it...only truly bad people of course, rightists!

Sometimes I wonder if every generation needs anew to learn to look behind all these great nice words...

You sure have rose-tinted way of looking at things in the UK. I am sure there are beautiful places in both cities. Just as there are beautiful places in e.g. Berlin. But my experience there reflects more the reality which is mentioned here:

Life in Britain's Universal Credit capital: How Birmingham is facing a jobs crisis and spiralling child poverty as locals say 'this place is f

google.com/amp/s/dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14028749/amp/Life-deprived-city-unemployment-benefits-Britain.html

"Journalism" I suppose?


That is the issue here. They have made those statements publically. And if it can be shown that AfD politicians have systematically pushed those narratives... Well, the AfD will be in hot water indeed.
.

Nope....I googled that:

....Eine Partei kann nur dann verboten werden, wenn sie nicht nur eine verfassungsfeindliche Haltung vertritt, sondern diese Haltung auch in aktiv-kämpferischer, aggressiver Weise umsetzen will.Für ein Parteiverbot genügt es also nicht, dass oberste Verfassungswerte in der politischen Meinungsäußerung in Zweifel gezogen, nicht anerkannt, abgelehnt oder ihnen andere entgegengesetzt werden....

bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/verfassung/parteienrecht/parteiverbot/parteiverbot-node.html

Disliking Muslims is just a "politische Meinungsäußerung", as is "Messermänner" btw....

If it can be proven that the AfD secretly plans to take to the arms to overthrow the gov, THEN it would be possible (and needed) after all....

Frankly I can openly insulting anybody's human dignity as long as I don't plan to kill the gov over it...or so....

No, it of course refers to the famous speech by your country's leader.



That's what they do. Part of the fascist playbook is the wolf in sheep's clothing technique, pretending to be reasonable.


Oh dear, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel trawling Google for quotes from there. Good that Universal Credit works though. Hard to know what connection that has to do with leaving your imperialistic trading block though...

Back to the topic. A couple of interesting articles here:
German spy agency brands far-right AfD as 'extremist', opens way for closer surveillance
reuters.com/world/europe/german-spy-agency-ranks-far-right-afd-extremist-2025-05-02/

In 2017, ten AfD Bundestag members were found to have participated in a closed Facebook group named "the Patriots" in which, among other things, antisemitic, racist, pro-Nazi and conspiratorial posts were widespread. One meme posted therein, which showed the Holocaust victim Anne Frank's face edited on a pizza box labelled with the German equivalent of "fresh from the oven"
dw.com/en/afd-in-the-bundestag-hitler-hate-and-hooligans/g-71754221

An oven-ready political party...

They are not supposed.

That's why leftists never debate. They hide and impose. "You have to pass it to see what's in it" - said one of them...

I'd say a pretty good test for what is acceptable is looking at whether or not it would be acceptable to make such remarks about another minority.

Would it be acceptable for someone to say that he dislikes Jews, that they are all potential criminals, to give them insulting nicknames and to state that Jews can never become truly German? Of course not. If it turns out that leading politicians from the AfD use and encourage that kind of rhethoric,... .


I was refering to the classification of the AfD as an "extremist" party by the report. Which if those quotes are true and as numerous as claimed, is probably going to be confirmed by the courts.

Banning the AfD requires another process and as you said, possibly further proof. If the courts confirm the report, then the classification of the AfD will permit the Verfassungsschutz to aquire informants and use other investigative methods. Currently they are almost exclusively looking at public statements. But since plans to overthrow the democracy are rarely spellt out in public, they'll have to look what AfD politicians are saying and writing behind the scenes.


At least I have more than strong opinions to back up my positions. Not like I have to be selective here, Birmingham's problems are widely publicized. Something someone from the Ruhr Valley can actually emphasize with. It is hard to get out of this vicious cycle.


Next you'll be calling the EU the Fourth Reich.