News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

My final point and then bye to all my Polish and Jewish loves... : I quote from
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/poland-holocaust-free-speech-nazi

"I am against both the new Polish and Israeli laws for the same reason I oppose any measure criminalising Holocaust denial. Not because I don't find such denial vile: I do. But because the truth is a plant that cannot be protected by keeping it behind walls, in the shadow of the law. It can thrive only out in the open, where it will be buffeted by argument, to be sure - but where it can also breathe and grow and live."

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@Igal, you musn't blame all Poles for the crimes of some who are all long since dead. It is no better than an anti-semite saying all Jews are this or that. That is also nonsense. In every society there is bad fruit. Polish catholics lost 3 million and Jews also lost 3 million. Both were victims. Yes Poles gave up and even murdered Jews during the war and that is regrettable to I hope most Poles. But Poles also saved 1000s of Jews at great personal risk. Let's not forget that either for it is the true shining star of Poland when it comes to Jewish relations.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@Ironside... here is an interesting article. theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/poland-holocaust-free-speech-nazi

It seems people are arguing at cross purposes. We all agree I hope :

1) Polish state did not collaborate in the holocaust. That is a ridiculous assertion with no evidence and honestly I haven't heard anyone make it so don't know what fuss is about.

2) 1000s of Poles saved Jews. There are more Poles at Jad Vashem than any other nation. Poles should be proud. This was a sign of true Christian kindness.

3) 3 million Poles were murdered by the Germans. Jews were not the only victims here.

4) Many Poles denounced Jews to the Germans for rewards. Many Poles condemn their fellow nationals for this.

From the article linked :


theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/poland-holocaust-free-speech-nazi

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@gregy - nice summary of the current situation...
bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172vr1l9ztq5m2

It is important for Poles to commemorate their losses too. The Germans actually set up Auschwitz for the Poles; only later did the Jewish transports come. One problem may be how many people are unwilling to hear the Polish story. The Poles were subjected to genocide as rightly stated in the indictment of the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1945. Millions of Poles were killed; millions sent to concentration or slave labor camps; up to 200,000 Polish children were kidnapped by the Germans; many hundreds of thousands were expelled from their homes; many lost livelihoods; all were fearful of arrest - the Germans regularly conducted 'razzias', round-ups, grabbing people off the streets to feed concentration camps.

The German raided and plundered Polish property, e.g., requisitioning food from Polish farmers to feed Germany; hunger was rife, smuggling of food into Polish cities dangerous. And within this the Germans perpetrated the Holocaust on Polish territory. There have been for many years accusations that Poles wanted the Holocaust, that the Poles gladly participated in the Holocaust. But one must acknowledge that Poles were the only group on which that the Germans felt the need to impose the death penalty for aiding Jews. And the Germans killed thousands of Poles under this decree. A big part of the uproar is the concern that the law prohibits accusations against individuals. It appears Polish govt is not denying that that some Polish individuals did not behave rightly and harmed Jews. Clarification is all that is needed here to close this matter and restore Israeli Polish relations.

The law is limited to the Polish State and the Polish Nation not being complicit with Germans crimes and this is true - there was no complicity by any official Polish authority or organization. It is important to bring Polish story just as well as Jewish history into focus and force people to reflect on the horrid experience Poland's catholics and jews suffered at the hands of German racism.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I am not trolling. I simply quoted a figure in the linked article.

Seriously Poland must be careful these days. To be so brash in terms of this kind of law, further isolates the country from the West. Polish government must be more carefuly. Already Poland can't trust Russia and with very good reason. To go full on against Jews is very unwise if Poland wants good relations with the US and the EU who have already condemned the Polish government for pushing this law.

The more that this continues, the more Poland risks lack of support from EU/US in any invasion by Russia (a disturbing but likely possibility). Why not make a law instead to acknowledge 3 million Poles who dies in the war. A law to mourn their loss just like the jews mourn their loss of 3 million? Poles lost the same amount. No one would hold that against Poland. Instead we have this law to prevent people accusing Polish state of collaborating with Nazis which no one in their right mind who claim anyway. All that is well known, is that polish individuals (not the state) widely renounced jews to Nazis for rewards or killed Jews themselves.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Peace and love my friends.. Here's a nice tribute video of a trully great global role model for human peace and love - Nelson Mandela. .youtube.com/watch?v=BGS7SpI7obY

In the end it is the purveyors of love who will be remembered fondly and with respect. Those who trade in hate and ignorance will be consigned to the garbage bin of history. Poles have become one of the most despised immigrant groups in the UK just because of the tendency towards hatred and bigotry you see in too many.

@Ironside - It is true the relationship between Jews and Poles was often poor (though certainly not always - why did so many Poles save Jews?) before the war. Of course Jews should have some responsibility as they tended to isolate themselves and frown on integration with "gentiles".... Especially orthodox jews who even in Israel, have little respect and don't integrate with secular /atheist jews. You can imagine what it would be like in shtetl's with orthodox jews and catholic polish villagers living side by side. Not easy. So yes, orthodox jews are not an easy group to live side by side with even for secular jews! Of course, that's no execuse for what happened during the war!

I suggest you read this interesting account of a Jewish family living in Poland from around end of 19th century. It presents the positives and negatives of the Polish experience in quite a balanced way.

amazon.co.uk/Mosaic-Chronicle-Generations-Diane-Armstrong-ebook/dp/B003QCJ6NG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517740056&sr=8-1&keywords=mosaic+a+chronicles+of+5+generation

Not all Jews fit the stereotype of being rich, stingy, usurous, yadayada. There are millions of poor young jews today who are struggling in the same way as poor young Poles. High cost of living, lack of jobs etc. It is true that culturally Jews worked harder than Poles in Poland. Immigrants always do. Go and see Polish immigrants in london for ex. In Poland, they would have often excelled leading to resentment among the Polish natives. Basically jealousy is what mainly fuelled antisemtism. Even amongst Polish catholic families there is high jealousy of each other let alone of strangers. Certainly if you listen to holocaust survivor testimonials (some married Poles after the war by the way...) this is the common refrain - that the Poles just couldn't handle the success of some jews.

Regarding Poles who murdered jews or gave them up for some paltry Nazi rewards, of course no one can name these Poles as the jews who they gave up are dead. Here is an interesting account estimating 200.000 jews died this way and there is no acknowledgement of this in Poland. It's all brushed under the carpet.

bbc.com/news/world-europe-42920934

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Jews and Poles are closer than you think. Even today, centuries of Jewish blood runs silently and secretly through millions of Polish veins. 1/3 of Poland was Jewish. Both before and especially after the war there was much mixing, much "integration" under pressure and then marriage into Polish families... All this has been brushed under the carpet. Poles and Jews have reason to be great friends. The past is the past but the future may be sunny.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

It is so sad that such a hallabaloo has been generated over this harmless statement "Polish death camps". Sadly the meaning was lost in translation for Poles. If I say Polish BMWs it doesn't mean that I am saying BMWs were designed and built by Poles. It simply means the BMWs that are geographically located in Poland. Same thing with Polish death camps, it does not mean Poles designed and built the camps. This whole furor illustrates the critical importance of having good translators.

@gregy741 - yes you can call the Japanese hiroshima bomb the "Japanese nuclear bomb" in English. It can mean Japanese built it but not necessarily. It depends on the context as it can equally "simply" mean the bomb was located in Japan or dropped there or whatever. Death camps in south africa can be called just death camps if it is obvious the reference is to British designed and run. Same is obvious about concentration camps. Everyone with half a brain knows the German nazis cooked them up.

@WielkiPolak - Yes, you could say Polish Nike Stores. In English it is perfect. You could say Polish nike store to distinguish nike stores in poland from elsewhere on the planet.

@Mafketis - Yes there was no Polish state at the time however the term does not say there was. "Polish death camps" can equally mean death camps "that were" located in present day Polish territory.

@shockedinpoland - There was no Polish state to collaborate with Nazis. It makes no sense for Israelis to have said that and I think you misunderstood. Why would the Polish govt in exile collaborate with an occupying power. No, what israel is saying is that although thousands of Poles saved Jews, 1000s also gave them up for rewards. these were individual Poles not the Polish state and the law is too fuzzy in distinguishing bw the 2.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Peace and love all please. Remember love will always conquer hate. Let us all give each other a big hug here ok? ..... Now that was nice huh? But back to my comment again "Polish concentration camps" in English does not mean that the camps were Setup and run by Poles. It can perfectly well "simply" mean they were geographically located in Poland. @Gregy I take your Point re: 70% of Americans and really this is a shocking statistic. Well actually not so shocking coming from Americans. Seriously this is all such Basic Basic history that I am quite astounded that some People still Need to be told that concentration/Extermination camps sited in Poland were Setup and run by Germans and not Poles. It is really so painfully painfully obvious. That is why some may use the term "Polish concentration camps" because they assume a certain Basic fundamental level of historical awareness, intelligence and English proficiency in their audience.