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Posts by W75  

Joined: 1 Jun 2012 / Male ♂
Last Post: 25 Jul 2012
Threads: 4
Posts: 25
From: Northern Europe
Speaks Polish?: Only English
Interests: Outsourcing, polish language, culture and wages

Displayed posts: 29
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25 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

I think you should read this document also:

I've just recently got time to take a read. :-) Thanks for the link. The available offices and general prices in Lodz is an advantage.

My wife is chief Accountant in a public institution in Warsaw, so I already have some knowledge. That can be an explanation of higher percent of employees with a University degree in Poland.

This is just great information. Everything makes much more sense now.

So, if I've understood it correctly, here's how the systems is:
 ACCA/KIRB people, don't normally work with bookkeeping.
 Masters degree (or other tertiary degree) in bookkeeping makes them licensed bookkeepers, they don't have to do the test, and often heads a bookkeeping company.

 People with high school education in bookkeeping, or practical experience, works with lower tasks (if they can get a job).

Are the salaries in the excellent article you provided about the people doing the simple work or the ones with the certifications?

Which young person is interested in anything for life ?

Thank you for your post. I think there's a little misunderstanding here. Sure there are people who are interested in doing what they chose for either the long haul or life when they begin. I know of many bookkeepers/dentists/veterinarians who have been in their profession and position ever since they were educated. Interests may change (yes!), but if the interest is stepping stone from the beginning, then we've got the wrong people. I don't want to open a discussion about who says what on interviews and that people may lie (sure - that's pretty much stating the obvious). It would be our task to find out people's motives, and we would spend money on _heavy_ advertising and marketing until we'd get several hundred applicants for each available position (getting the right people, with the right demands, expectations, attitudes and personal abilities are alpha and omega). I wouldn't want to act like a medieval vassal, if I can't contribute something positive to the place, I wouldn't want to be doing it. If people thinks the jobs I'd offer are s**t, I'd rather go someplace where they would be sought after.

In my opinion, key people needed for this kind of business are: 1. accounting expert

Thanks for the input. I know where I would find people for 2-5. But about 1, do you define accountant experts by having a normal BA, MA or education from a specific school only? Please do tell more about types of non-clerk tasks the expert should/would perform which the clerks wouldn't.

@delphiandomine, We can take the discussion about motives, people who might screw other people over another time, or in a PM. I'll get back to post #40 later.

Can anyone make an educated guess as for how many percent whom work as bookkeeping clerks have these educations?
1) No education when beginning
2) Liceum Ekonomiczne
3) Short tertiary education
4) BA/MA in bookkeeping

I can tell that in my country it's, (1) Around 15%, (2) bookkeeping in high school doesn't excist, (3), around 50%, (4) doesn't excist when it's only about bookkeeping (but there's a MA for auditing), (5) around 35% (because the laws state it must be like that).

Does the people who've taken the Liceum Ekonomiczne/High schools normally have enough knowledge of bookkeeping to pass the four hour certification test when they're done?

@CMS. That's very useful. one quick question; the qualified, are that people whom are ACCA/KIRB certified, or is it another type of BA/MA desgrees?
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

@delphiandomine #36. Cms has superior knowledge of this, and I trust what he says. What you wrote in #33 was that it could get people at 3700 PLN stating the reason that first jobs payed badly. Therefore I said that I wasn't interested in the «first jobs and that's it people». So, what's irrelevant is fining out what to pay people to stay for a short term. And if they were educated for being a bookkeeping clerk (and not overeducated), why bring up the «first job» stuff... Having knowledge of how the progress often goes, with how it rises, is well, and I appreciate the input cms gave on that.
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]


An ACCA (which most people on these boards thinks is overkill) is a three year education.
The fourteen syllabus are:
F1 Accountant in Business
F2 Management Accounting
F3 Financial Accounting
F4 Corporate and Business Law
F5 Performance Management
F6 Taxation
F7 Financial Reporting
F8 Audit and Assurance
F9 Financial Management
P1 Governance Risk & Ethics
P2 Corporate Reporting
P3 Business Analysis
At last two of these:
P4 Advanced Financial Management
P5 Advanced Performance Management
P6 Advanced Taxation
P7 Advanced Audit and Assurance

During those three years, over half of those courses aren't directly related to the bookkeeping tasks of a clerk. Yet you don't think any clerk should have less than a masters..... In Germany and Norway, learning to do the bookkeeping clerk tasks is a one year tertiary education, plus a short trainee period. And if those with a bachelor in accounting are overqualified (as people keep pointing out about the KIRB/ACCA folks), what are then people with a longer education?
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

@delphiandomine. About post #31. I don't like what you're implying, as most of what you write is based on the premise that I might end up screwing someone over. And if, God forbid, something went a rye, it's not like someone who've worked some years for me, and made more money than the industry standard, couldn't just pick up their books again if it didn't work out. But enough about that, I think we both know each others positions, and I don't think going to lengths about the «chances it'll go a rye/safety net if it does» discussion would bear any fruits.

Thanks to wawa_marek, we can just skip the whole shebang, since I'll most likely end up employing people who has some tertiary bookkeeping education to being with.

Teachers are obliged to have a bachelor here at home, but even those studying for the ACCA equivalent have two years of non-bookkeeping topics, and one year of bookkeeping topics before they begin as trainees. Delphiandomine, I really don't see why you find it necessary to go through five years of learning to do normal bookkeeping as a clerk.

We'll this would be built to last, so what I'd worry about is the long term salary expectations. If it was only a "beginners job" then there's no point at all, so the beginners salary isn't really relevant. The thing I could afford would be around 3765 PLN and rising with inflation and a small yearly raise from that. If I got stuck with some overeducated person, wanting to do «something more fit for their [high] education» I would really be setting myself up for a trap, as chances are he/she would begin with endless demands since they've got such and such education. I can see that day coming.

I would only be interested in those who are interested in bookkeeping as a job for life, or at least for a very long haul.
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

W75: Do you know how many years they have to go to such schools to pass the test?
People with 2nd level of University education (studia magisterskie) in accounting do not need to pass exams.

This just keeps getting better and better. Thanks a lot for the link. If the median is 3300 PLN it means that our offer would be lucrative compared with the mainstream (big smiles). I would really work to make the workplace as pleasant and positive as possible if/when I would decide to give it a go, and affording to give a salary slightly above the norm contributes to just that.

Perhaps we should buy advice by the hour from you when we're ready to roll ;-) It's a huge process really, since we've got to first get investors, but in the next or the year after I guess all is set to go.

Hmmm. I guess 2nd level and masters degree are the same stuff. Do you think the norm is to take only a couple of years and then the test, or to take five years and skip the testing? Five years seems a bit long - and I am a bit worried the 2nd level people would demand higher wages than we could afford.
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

Because these are large cities with many university level schools and at the same they are second tier agglomerations. Cities like Wrocła or Kraków are alreadu packed up the roofs with international companies...

That explains a lot.

As there are four cities in Poland with direct flight routes, the cities being: Poznan, Krakow, Szczecin, Gdansk (so my options are somewhat limited). How would you rank those when it comes to expences?

Zdumiewający! As it's said in Polish. This is such great advice, I feel almost like I should pay :-).

Do you know how many years they have to go to such schools to pass the test? If I could get any of those people working for some 3750-4000 PLN gross per month, it would be just perfect.
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

Brilliant wawa :-). That's just what I was looking for.

I've browsed around on the site, and (accoring to Google translate), it's a four hour test they have to take, and it consist of bookkeeping, tax laws and social security law, weighed at 130 points, 60 points and 40 points.

It brings one question to mind. Which education would be ideal for people to take to pass that test?

I'm asking since the KIRB/ACCA people would be over qualified for an accontant clerk job...
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

Your input is appreciated CMS.

Yes, you're right I raised the question a while back. Looking back at that thread I can see that delphiandominestated quite clearly that you would not be «comfortable» with living in cities like Poznan if you wouldn't make 10-12000 PLN gross per month (I guess his statements are just part of the old adage that Poland is booooming). There were many odd answers in that thread, so I thought I'd raise the question again, but this time be more precise in what I'm looking for, and I appreciate all input I can get, since it gives a broader perspective of how the conditions are.

Thanks for weighing in on what the wages are going at now. Especially since you are in the business yourself. 2700 gross sounds good. And, if I may say, I find your credibility to be superior to many other statements I've seen on the web.

I didn't know the unemployment rate was at only at that level. I find that rate pretty low actually. After reading that, I took a quick look at the rates on the countryside.

Pretty fascinating that there such large differences within a voivodeship, although it's old numbers. I guess the rates around the city can smooth the process of recruiting.

About India. I've worked with over twenty different companies in the IT niche there, and I've worked with almost ten from the eastern parts of Europe - and with the fear of sounding chauvinist, my experience is that I'd prefer one hour of work in Europe compared to two hours in India any day. Although the Polish charge more per hour when it comes to IT work, they are actually cheaper if the task is complex, because they are often times much better at executing it. I might go for work in Dutch, Norwegian or Danish, so the Indians wouldn't have an upper hand when it comes to language.

But, anyways, since I'd go with at least one native speaker on the site at all times, the flight time and cost makes both India and SA less suitable.

Looking at a map I dug up of the whole nation, perhaps I'd be better off recruiting people from the West Pomeranian Voivodeship to come move to Gdansk for employment - if not the cost of living is significantly lower in Szczecin.

Quick correction, it the other thread it was said that living in cities like Poznan you'd need 8.000-10.000 PLN gross to be comfortable.
23 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

Thank you for your reply! :-)

The numbers from the FT site is one year after graduation. But like you said, it's the top schools.

If I understand you right, people with degrees in marketing or sociology or perhaps some lower economical education might want the job. And graduates in such classes from cities like Bydgoszcz, Olsztyn, Szczecin or Lubilin might be a place to look. The reason you mentioned those cites, is that because they have high unemployment rates, or are especially poor?

But - you still have to contend with the fact that anything less than full time studies is seen as inferior in Poland.

So what you're saying is that it's not possible to get talented people to accept work for 3765 PLN gross in the cities I mentioned. Fine. Noted.

The job would be secure, so a fallback education is really only meaningful if one doesn't want to work for 3765 PLN.
22 Jul 2012
Work / Salary for an architect with 3years experience in warsaw [37]

Prepare a professional resume and emphasize any specific experience you have.Sign up international job searching websites and apply if there is anything available.

Nice site. Seems to be single submissions which are the basis of the rough number. Since the numbers are net, I'm adding a link to the median tax rate in Poland and other countries:

I am aware it's an old thread, but I read it through searching, and I guess there are more who'll read it after me.
22 Jul 2012
Work / Is 7000 PLN net per month....a reasonable salary in Katowice [40]

As an outsider, I've got less first hand knowledge of the conditions in the city. But, I find it fascinating you should say this. Not long ago I looked up the GDP per capita in Poland in different voivodeships, and thought that Silesia's ranking meant that I should avoid those parts of Poland if looking for people willing to work for a medium wage. I thought to myself, the reason why Silesia ranks so high might be because of old ties with Germany. Since you find the city to be below the average, I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on the table below. From that it seems the region is above the nations average...

1. Mazowieckie - $25,331
2. Dolnoslaskie- $16,973
3. Slaskie- $16,844
4. Wielkopolskie - $16,714
Polish Average - $15,944
5. Pomorskie - $15,677
6. Lodzkie - $14,657
7. Zachodniopomorskie - $14,529
8. Lubuskie - $14,145
9. Kujawsko-Pomorskie - $13,880
10. Malopolskie - $13,758
11. Opolskie - $12,727
12. Swietokrzyskie - $12,085
13. Warminsko-Mazurskie - $11,953
14. Podlaskie - $11,699
15. Podkarpackie - $10,928
16. Lubelskie - $10,800
22 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

No-one is going to be interested in such an offer at that age - in Poland, higher education is almost obligatory if you want a decent job.

Perhaps you were a bit quick to read the thread: What's in question is working from a Polish city, up against clients in other countries. So it's what people would want to accept as a salary living in Poznan, Szczecin, Rzeszow, Krakow, Gdansk which is the question. Good point about the currency fluctuations. 1100$ gross per month is now 3765 PLN.

In Norway people choose a bookkeeping education 19, and in Germany people choose that education at 16. It's a short tertiary education, with some school and some practice, which is specific for one special job. I really don't understand why people in Poland shouldn't choose that education after high school is finished, when they are somewhere around 18-19.

What you are going to do is just typical offshore accouting. .

Thanks for the tip about the certificate. In Norway it's a institution appointed by the ministry of finance which gives permits. Do you have a link where I could read about the Polish authorization you're talking about? It's no problem that it's not in English since the translation tools are alright-ish.

Right now there is oversupply of people with all kinds of non-technical degrees... economy, marketing, sociology etc.

"If you mean that a person would do not much else for the 1st year than learn the language...". Yes.

And... If they drop out, that's a risk we'd have to take. It would be our job to make the stay as delighting as possible.

I am a bit puzzled though that you'd say we could get university graduates, in economy or marketing to work for the 1100$ gross per month, since according to FT, people with degress from Warsaw School of Economics and Kozminski University both earn 3900-4300$ gross per month.
22 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

Hmm. 30% more than 1100$, for experienced people with a BA/MA... That sounds very good.

Those who'd be likely to want to come work, which types of university degrees do you think they could have? (I know people with some degrees charge a lot...)

Take Dutch for example. Refugees who already speak English, and are commited to learn, does it in some years when studying part time. Take the "linguistically best and brightest" and they'll learn it quicker (all if living in the country they are learning the language of). I personally know a dedicated woman who moved to Holland and was fluent in less than a year. But, enough about that...

The reason I was thinking about those after high school was that they learn language quicker when they are in their late teens, and have not begun college/uni yet. But enough about that as well...

What I'd really like to hear is more of the thread we begun spinning on; about which BA/MA degrees people could have, and want to work for my offer. I know little of Poland, so all info, thoughts anc opinions are appreciated.
22 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]

Thank you for your input Grzegorz. You write that it's enough for recent graduates. If you have an opinion of what people with experience would need, then please weigh in.

The job specific education would be one year after high school.

Like you say, it might be better to go with people already proficient in the language, only that I fear they would be harder to negotiate with. If one doesn't go with people who already speak a foreign language, then one year of language training would come on top.
20 Jul 2012
Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture [44]


I wonder this:

All small business must pay tax in Poland (like in practically all other countries). The way they find out how much they should pay in tax is by doing accounting/bookkeeping.

Many small business owners in Poland aren't into this, doesn't like it or doesn't know how to do it - so they buy help from bookkeeping companies. In Norway it's normal that many in industries such as cafeterias, decorators and used car sellers, buy bookkeeping services from small bookkeeping companies.

So, my question is, for such services, how much do they normally have to pay per hour?

And, there are differences in what education is needed to be allowed to help small business with accounting. In Germany the accounting education needed is a couple of years in a high school teaching accounting, and in Norway the law says that in order to help small business (and all business) you need at least three years in college plus several years as some sort of "trainee".

What does the law say in Poland about what's required of education to be allowed to do accounting?

The business venture I plan is to recruit Polish people who are still early in their education, and offer then a scholarship to educate themselves both in accounting for another country and become fluent in the language, and work up against customers in other countries such as Luxemburg, Germany, Netherlands and so forth, getting a good Polish wage which in turn should be a moderate wage in the forth mentioned countries.

But, I am having problems finding Polish companies which helps small business in Poland with bookkeeping for tax purposes, and I don't know what the normal salaries are in Poland for those helping small business with bookkeeping (and which education is required for them).

Let me rephrase that:

Would it be difficult to find people who would be willing to work from Poland for 1100$ per month? They would get one year of language training, and one year of bookkeeping training first. And, they should be among the brightest, kindest and learn language quickly.

I'm thinking about cities like:
Poznan, Szczecin, Rzeszow, Krakow, Gdansk
22 Jun 2012
Work / Salary of architects or building engineers in Poland cities [12]

Can only give you a guide of £21k for a qualified structural engineer in Warsaw (when I say qualified, I mean 10 years experience)

Hmmm. So that's about 9500 PLN gross per month. Is that for a Polish worker, speaking Polish at work? (I saw you mentioned you had English guys at your office).

If you pay them 7-8,000 gross, you should be able to find somebody decent.

I just got a reply from a school in warsaw (got the reply 19th of June, on my gmail) where they said that 7-8 sounded a bit high, "but maybe architects (and not building engineers) earned such money". Reason I asked the school is that I assumed they gathered statistics about such things, but they didn't.
20 Jun 2012
Work / Salary of architects or building engineers in Poland cities [12]

Cuet16, there are plenty of threads about race, attitudes towards foreigners and all that. Please do take it up here:
Society, Culture or in another category fit for that type of discussion. I wouldn't like to see the thread go off topic. Thanks for understanding, and please do not be so scrimp with the period button, it does handle to be pressed ;-)
20 Jun 2012
Life / Polish people are the most ignorant people in the world! [331]

I have seen ridiculous examples of how ignorant Polish people are, in life experiences and in this website, by Polish people posting that Polish women are the most beautiful in the world, etc. (...) There is no reason for making these wild claims, like about Polish women for example; I have seen thousands of Polish women and they are not remarkable in beauty at all.

And what's wrong with having that opinion? Japanese thinks their own people look the best, so does Poles, Norwegians, Danes, Germans, Austrians, Russians, the Swiss etc. It has nothing to do with ignorance.

As for saying «Poland is not the best at anything», the country has first been run over by the Germans, than the Sovjets, and then been under the stranglehold of Stalinism and the communism that followed for decades, only to free itself in 1989. Many of the Western countries have had a head start. I think that if the Sovjet rulers would have withdrawn immediately after the war, Poland would be much wealthier than many western countries such as Spain, Greece, France and Portugal on a per capita basis. There are plenty of intelligent people in the country. They have, on a per capita basis, more scientific Nobel Prizes than e.g. Japan - which by most is considered country with a highly intelligent population.
12 Jun 2012
Work / Salary of architects or building engineers in Poland cities [12]

Hello terri,

I didn't say I speak Polish, I said that I am asking what the normal salary is for either building engineers or architects who do speak Polish and works in Poland (not the capital).

Also tell me, pray, how are we suppose to know what the salaries of particular jobs might be.

You can tone down your attitude a few notches, it's a totally normal question to ask, and there are many people with lots of knowledge of the Polish society on these boards. Some are even in the business themselves. I didn't ask you in particular, so if you don't have knowledge about the topic you can just leave the thread without answering.

The reason I am looking for info on this subject is that I am considering setting up an office in Poland (or the Baltics), taking on clients from abroad. And I am not asking what the pay is for those who speak a foreign language, I would deal with language training myself, so I am asking about Polish people, speaking Polish, living in Poland.
11 Jun 2012
Work / Salary of architects or building engineers in Poland cities [12]


Does anyone know what the normal gross salary for a person with a master's degree in either architecture or building engineering is?

Speaking of the salary in a smaller city like Gdansk or Szeczin and not the capital.
1 Jun 2012
Work / Polish nurses, gender and salary [32]

Thank you for great input peterweg!

They are welcome, because they have the physical strength that many of the 45kg nurse lack.

Good point. I think they are welcome too. They do bring something to an (often) female dominated workplace.

"they become doctors for ego reasons" Ohh yes, I agree.

I agree, it's very common among male nurses to be gay. But that's fine really. If the male nurse (gay or not) does have children, he often have a partner who takes care of them at home (man or woman). I think females aren't so keen on leaving their children at home with their man, going abroad to work. At least that's how it is at home. At the fishing boats (which is a huge industry) there are barely females, even in the gender neutral positions like stewards who cook all the food. In the oil industry also, it's common for males to work a couple of weeks offshore, long holiday - repeat. But females want to quit that work once they have babies.

I see it's not that super rare for men to be nurses in other countries (perhaps it'll change in Poland as well?). Here's some gender data.

United states, 14% of the nurses are male.
Israel, 13% are male.
Italy, 27% are male.
Mexico, 9% are male.
Norway, 10% are male (other source)
Sweden, 10% are male (other source)

(from "Method", 2.1. Participants, "Comparisons of American, Israeli, Italian andMexican physicians and nurses on the total andfactor scores of the Jefferson scale of attitudestoward physician-nurse collaborative relationships")

That's alll from this forum.

I know it's from this forum. That's why I posted the link to this forum. It's an archived thread, so it couldn't be bumped.
1 Jun 2012
Work / Salary expectations in Poland [373]

Depends on :
- where you live (big city or small village)


dentist (private clinik - from 5000 zł netto to...15 000 zł netto...)

This is four years old now. Can anyone give a source to the info?
1 Jun 2012
Work / Polish nurses, gender and salary [32]

The reason gender matters to me is that men actually are more often flexible when it comes to working e.g. 2 weeks abroad, than 4 week holiday - repeat. (that type of work will - of course - me beneficial to the economy in Poland, because they don't spend while they work, and they come home with plenty -- whereas those who simply migrate don't leave much money at home, they just leave with an education...).

Women more often have little children to care of at home, so they are more reluctant to do such work. So, that's why I wonder if there are many men who take the education. E.g. if it's 1/10 or perhaps more/less.
1 Jun 2012
Work / Salary for medical doctors in Poland [2]


I have some questions regarding doctors in Poland. I assume that the newly educated begun doctor school when they were 18, and did six years of schooling, and one year (?) of training which makes them to be in their mid twenties when they're educated.

What salary is normal for doctors in Poland? Are there wide differences between the Voivodeships?

How many hours do they normally work a week? (I know in some countries doctors are really overworked)
1 Jun 2012
Work / Polish nurses, gender and salary [32]

In which Polish cities do they offer a BSc in nursing? (if anyone has college/university names than that would be super)

Here's some info about whether or not a BSc is required ("All nurses now (since 2001) have to complete a 3 year BSc education in a medical university." typical-salary-31010/ Title: "How are nurses graded in Poland and what is their typical salary?")

Can anyone weigh in about the wages? (kind of differing answers)
Joo Woo: "I was recently speaking to a qualified nurse here in Poland, who works in a local leather factory. She says the pay is better, at 1300 PLN a month, than the wage of a newly qualified nurse!"

jacob_89: My mother is a nurse and she earns about 3500 zł brutto nowadays.
normski: "Nurse salaries range from about GBP400 to GBP800 per month depending on position"

Does anyone know anything about this:
uncle betty: 2. Is the Nursing High School Diploma a recognised EU standard, that would allow the holder to register as a nurse in another EU country ?

mafketis: (From talks I've had with people in nursing (warning: this is all second hand information) 2. I don't think so. The Polish government purposely tried to make it as hard as possible for Polish nursing qualifications to be recognized outside of Poland for fear of hastening emigration by nurses. Basically, most of the people in nursing training programs now don't really intend on working in Poland anymore than they have to, nursing is what you might call an 'emigration degree'. That said, Polish nursing training does not suffer in comparison with training in Western Europe and when they can learn the local language Polish nurses are in demand across Western Europe.

SzwedwPolsce This [a BSc] is the minimum requirement to work as a nurse in Sweden.I know some Polish nurses with shorter education that wanted to go to Sweden to work, but could not.
1 Jun 2012
Work / Polish nurses, gender and salary [32]


I have some questions regarding nurses in Poland. I assume that a bachelor's degree is needed (?) to be working in the field.

So, what I wonder is, does anyone know how common it is for men to be taking that education? Like 1 in 10, or 3 in 10.

And, does anyone know what wage the nurses can expect in a normal job (e.g. a hospital)? A ballpark figure would do just fine, but if you have better knowledge of the subject than that would be super.

1 Jun 2012
Work / Chartered accountant from India joining a company in Poland. Cost of living in Poznan? [29]

I found the answer to my question. Altrough only a bachelor's degree (+ a year or so in experience) is needed to be allowed to do accounting, I found the salaries for the master students in economics in Poland. Here they are:

Warsaw School of Economics Poland - 51,063$
Kozminski University Poland - 46,847$

It's not even sure that it covers bonuses, overtime etc. I think it's without that.
Source: gs-2011

When the (average) gross monthly pay in Poland is 1137$ (13644$ a year) I really don't see why more people just take the economics degree (is it expensive, very few spots compared to people applying making it hard to be accepted, or other things?).

It can't be good for society to have one group making 50000$ and another making 13644$.

The fifty is the statistic from the year after graduation, so it's bound to go further up.

Thanks to all for the good replies in this thread. age