Palivec
23 Apr 2011
Palivec
23 Apr 2011
History / The smallest Poland ever? [115]
A European who didn't know that redrawing borders is still a popular pastime in Poland.
and who are you ?
A European who didn't know that redrawing borders is still a popular pastime in Poland.
Palivec
24 Apr 2011
History / The smallest Poland ever? [115]
That's a contradiction. Either they are in good hands or turned into true Polish lands.
That is not the point - point is that only Wroclaw is in good hands and you know it.
we rebuilt the razed Eastern German provinces and turned them into true Polish lands,
That's a contradiction. Either they are in good hands or turned into true Polish lands.
Palivec
24 Apr 2011
History / The smallest Poland ever? [115]
Just a logical conclusion. If you turn non-Polish regions into "true Polish land" you must erase the former culture. If you remove the former culture the region can't be in good hands. Simple logic.
Is that a fact? Your 6th post on this forum and you're showing your true colours already - good! :)
Just a logical conclusion. If you turn non-Polish regions into "true Polish land" you must erase the former culture. If you remove the former culture the region can't be in good hands. Simple logic.
Palivec
24 Apr 2011
History / The smallest Poland ever? [115]
You can't compare (natural) migration in pre-nationalistic times and ethnic cleansing in the 20th century. The former was often characterised by a fusion of old an new culture (England, Spain), ethnic cleansings in the 20th century often came along with iconoclasm, i.e. the destruction of symbols of the former culture. Before the rise of nationalism symbols of a nation weren't that important to the people.
And by these standards Lviv is in better hands than Wroclaw. Mickiewicz and Kiliński are still on their pedestals, while Eichendorff and Svarez are gone. And while Poles can visit Polish graveyards in Lviv Germans can't do the same in Wroclaw.
You can't compare (natural) migration in pre-nationalistic times and ethnic cleansing in the 20th century. The former was often characterised by a fusion of old an new culture (England, Spain), ethnic cleansings in the 20th century often came along with iconoclasm, i.e. the destruction of symbols of the former culture. Before the rise of nationalism symbols of a nation weren't that important to the people.
And by these standards Lviv is in better hands than Wroclaw. Mickiewicz and Kiliński are still on their pedestals, while Eichendorff and Svarez are gone. And while Poles can visit Polish graveyards in Lviv Germans can't do the same in Wroclaw.
Palivec
24 Apr 2011
History / The smallest Poland ever? [115]
Fair enough. But this doesn't explain destructions in the 70s and even 80s and the general lack of care even today. Monumens can also be reconstructed. I know Poland pretty well, and the difference between the traditional Polish lands and the so called "recovered territories" is striking. The cultural uprooting is evident.
You compare a tribal society without much cultural achievements with a complex high culture?
Fair enough. But this doesn't explain destructions in the 70s and even 80s and the general lack of care even today. Monumens can also be reconstructed. I know Poland pretty well, and the difference between the traditional Polish lands and the so called "recovered territories" is striking. The cultural uprooting is evident.
But what about the United States - you haven't answered that?
You compare a tribal society without much cultural achievements with a complex high culture?
Palivec
28 Apr 2011
Feedback / Why are there so many on here, who do not like Poland [150]
The result of a few staunchly nationalistic Polish editors. Look for a user called Molobo or the EEML case. Everything there becomes a battlefield if these guys are involved.
But in the opinion of the article which you recommended to us it was. Which just goes to show how pathetic some of the content in Wikipedia about Poland is.
The result of a few staunchly nationalistic Polish editors. Look for a user called Molobo or the EEML case. Everything there becomes a battlefield if these guys are involved.
Palivec
28 Apr 2011
Feedback / Why are there so many on here, who do not like Poland [150]
Yeah, what have the Greeks or Romans ever done for us? Nothing...!
Oh my...
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ExWfh6sGyso
Yeah, what have the Greeks or Romans ever done for us? Nothing...!
Oh my...
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ExWfh6sGyso
Palivec
29 Apr 2011
History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]
Poland lost ~6 million people, not 11 million.
Germans killed above 11 millions of Poles between 1939-1945 and got 70% of Polish culture legacy
Poland lost ~6 million people, not 11 million.
Palivec
30 Apr 2011
History / The Piast dynasty did most for Poland [24]
The Piasts were also responsible for the fragmentation of Poland, and one branch of the Piasts split off its part altogether and joined a different country.
History is, as always, a bit more complex.
Poland's Piast dynasty united the West Slavic tribes on present day Poland's land into a common nation.
The Piasts were also responsible for the fragmentation of Poland, and one branch of the Piasts split off its part altogether and joined a different country.
History is, as always, a bit more complex.
Palivec
30 Apr 2011
News / Will many Poles migrate to Germany in May 2011 (after opening labor market)? [157]
AFAIK Poles are the best integrated group in Germany, and marriages between Poles and Germans are the most successful intermarriages in Germany. Germany also already hosts the second biggest Polonia in the world, and you never heard of any trouble.
Wanna bet?
AFAIK Poles are the best integrated group in Germany, and marriages between Poles and Germans are the most successful intermarriages in Germany. Germany also already hosts the second biggest Polonia in the world, and you never heard of any trouble.
Palivec
3 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]
These advertisements all over Poland are horrible. The whole country looks like a huge bazaar. A free economony is nice, but some rules are needed.
Look at those ugly advertisements near Warsaw - it looks as if their motto was: Give me a road and a plot so that I can start a business.
These advertisements all over Poland are horrible. The whole country looks like a huge bazaar. A free economony is nice, but some rules are needed.
Palivec
3 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]
So, Western Europe is some kind of Soviet Russia? I've never seen such visual polution in Germany, Scandinavia or France. Not even in the Czech Republic.
So, Western Europe is some kind of Soviet Russia? I've never seen such visual polution in Germany, Scandinavia or France. Not even in the Czech Republic.
Palivec
3 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
No, conscription in Prussia started only after the Prussian reforms by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, which were a direct result of the defeat in 1806. Conscription was first temporarialy implemented in March 1813 and finally began in 1814.
It looks like (if my sources are correct) that conscription began around 1806. I am also aware that Prussia had Hussar and Uhlan units, were these made up of Poles but led my Germans?? This seems to be a very difficult subject to research!
No, conscription in Prussia started only after the Prussian reforms by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, which were a direct result of the defeat in 1806. Conscription was first temporarialy implemented in March 1813 and finally began in 1814.
Palivec
3 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
Mainly French Huguenots and Kashubians.
Poles in the Prussian army:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Polacy_%E2%80%93_wojskowi_armii_pruskiej
btw what other minorities? the Danes? how many of them? some 50 thousand Lithuanians? a couple of thousands of Czechs?
Mainly French Huguenots and Kashubians.
Poles in the Prussian army:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Polacy_%E2%80%93_wojskowi_armii_pruskiej
Palivec
4 May 2011
History / The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction [118]
Legnica looked like this after the war:
I see a almost completely preserved town.
And today:
Legnica looked like this after the war:
I see a almost completely preserved town.
And today:
Palivec
4 May 2011
History / The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction [118]
The pictures show the situation long after 1945. They show the the burned out castle, which indeed happened directly after the war, and the mostly preserved old town.
Maybe you should be treated like a student. The destruction of the preserved, historic old town of Legnica after 1965 is well known among historians and conservators, since it affected the largest preserved area of Prussian rococo architecture. That Prussian heritage was the reason for the negligence and final destruction.
The pictures show the situation long after 1945. They show the the burned out castle, which indeed happened directly after the war, and the mostly preserved old town.
Maybe you should be treated like a student. The destruction of the preserved, historic old town of Legnica after 1965 is well known among historians and conservators, since it affected the largest preserved area of Prussian rococo architecture. That Prussian heritage was the reason for the negligence and final destruction.
Palivec
4 May 2011
History / The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction [118]
Then tell my way the rubble of war is so cleanly removed?! The Polish source, which hosts the pic, also says 1950-1980.
True. I checked my sources, and it was indeed February. Sorry.
This happened everywhere but didn't necessarily destroy entire towns. And in the case of Legnica the old town was still in pretty good shape, like the pictures suggest and the sources confirm.
The Russian troops usually didn't care about urban management. It was mostly a Polish effort, in line with events in other parts of the recovered territories.
I'm not German, and pointing out to the not so nice parts of the Polish history isn't complaining but a gentle push to accept the darker sides of history too.
Of course not.
Then tell my way the rubble of war is so cleanly removed?! The Polish source, which hosts the pic, also says 1950-1980.
Of course not. The castle was burned in February 1945 during the fight for the city. Russian troops set fire to it in fear of German counterattack, to prevent taking it back by Germans.
True. I checked my sources, and it was indeed February. Sorry.
The Old Town was mostly preserved, but only from February 1945 to 8-11 May 1945 when Soviet troops organised an orgy of destruction to celebrate the end of war. Houses were robbed and set on fire one after another.
This happened everywhere but didn't necessarily destroy entire towns. And in the case of Legnica the old town was still in pretty good shape, like the pictures suggest and the sources confirm.
The destruction, started by Soviet troops in 1945, was only completed by Polishcommunist authorities, greatly influenced by Russian troops who chose Legnica for their major headquarters in Poland.
The Russian troops usually didn't care about urban management. It was mostly a Polish effort, in line with events in other parts of the recovered territories.
Go to your German colleagues to complain about the war they started. :):):) If they hadn`t, the beautiful Old Town of Liegnitz would have survived till today. :):):)
I'm not German, and pointing out to the not so nice parts of the Polish history isn't complaining but a gentle push to accept the darker sides of history too.
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction [118]
In the context of the topic of this thread, the destruction of countless preserved quarters in the recovered territories to rebuild Warsaw and the planned destruction (graveyards, monuments, epitaphs) or deliberate neglect (castles, parks, churches, graveyards) of heritage with a distinctive German character.
Usually the public opinion in Poland still helds the war responsible for all destructions, while Poland is usually seen as the great reconstructor. But the truth is that these destructions weren't the result of scarce resources but of an ideology which forcibly destroyed German heritage.
Look at my pics again. Most houses still have roofs. Burned out houses don't have roofs. The old town of Legnica was *not* completely burned out.
I don't complain about reconstruction but about destruction.... and have to turn to the originator, which, in this case, is Poland.
Germans turned urban Poland into ruins, some of them were rebuilt in the original shape, some weren`t due to scarce resources which sentenced Prussian architecture in Legnica to annihilation.
So, what darker sides of history are you talking about, Palicev?
In the context of the topic of this thread, the destruction of countless preserved quarters in the recovered territories to rebuild Warsaw and the planned destruction (graveyards, monuments, epitaphs) or deliberate neglect (castles, parks, churches, graveyards) of heritage with a distinctive German character.
Usually the public opinion in Poland still helds the war responsible for all destructions, while Poland is usually seen as the great reconstructor. But the truth is that these destructions weren't the result of scarce resources but of an ideology which forcibly destroyed German heritage.
Yes and no. The fact that walls look intact doesn`t mean that the house is so ready for renovation. Do you know what burnt out houses have inside?
Look at my pics again. Most houses still have roofs. Burned out houses don't have roofs. The old town of Legnica was *not* completely burned out.
Doesn`t matter, if you want to complain about reconstruction, turn to Germans first.
I don't complain about reconstruction but about destruction.... and have to turn to the originator, which, in this case, is Poland.
Palivec
5 May 2011
News / Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced. [282]
ROFL. Isn't it amazing that some people here sound exactly like 19th century Germans when they talked about Poland? :D
ROFL. Isn't it amazing that some people here sound exactly like 19th century Germans when they talked about Poland? :D
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
You confuse several things here. The topic is the early 19th century, your first quote is from the early 20th century. Because of the evolving nationalism in Europe these eras were quite different. Before the age of nationalism, and after the enlightenment, Prussia was actually quite liberal and a pretty progressive society.
And Bismarcks quote often gets misread. He also says that Poles have his full sympathy. What he said was that he fully understands the Polish cause, but in order to preserve the unity of Germany he has to take harsh measures. In retrospect this was of course wrong, but at that time no government had an answer to the evolving nationalism of the 19th century.
ha ha ha - einer Schuss einer Russ, einer Stoss ein Franzos - quite apolitycal - so was Bismarck (and his remarks about Poles being wolves and that you don't befriend wolves just shoot them - well he was right to a certain extent)
You confuse several things here. The topic is the early 19th century, your first quote is from the early 20th century. Because of the evolving nationalism in Europe these eras were quite different. Before the age of nationalism, and after the enlightenment, Prussia was actually quite liberal and a pretty progressive society.
And Bismarcks quote often gets misread. He also says that Poles have his full sympathy. What he said was that he fully understands the Polish cause, but in order to preserve the unity of Germany he has to take harsh measures. In retrospect this was of course wrong, but at that time no government had an answer to the evolving nationalism of the 19th century.
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
That's the typical, narrow-minded view which is based on nationality and language, which is not suitable to explain the politics of the 18th century. The Prussian takeover of Silesia led to huge changes in the administration of the church, state, educational system and so on. Education became compulsory (!), freedom of religion was established, and the state administration became closer to the people. This was all very progressive, but meant that minorities had much more contact with the majority. For instance, each child had to go to the school, and church services were hold in the language of the majority (and not in Latin anymore). That's why the Polish minorities in Lower Silesia disappeared while the Polish majority in Upper Silesia stayed.
Curiously enough, the Prussians did not manage to make such a progress in the germanization of Upper Silesia which until 1918 largely remained a Polish-speaking region.
That's the typical, narrow-minded view which is based on nationality and language, which is not suitable to explain the politics of the 18th century. The Prussian takeover of Silesia led to huge changes in the administration of the church, state, educational system and so on. Education became compulsory (!), freedom of religion was established, and the state administration became closer to the people. This was all very progressive, but meant that minorities had much more contact with the majority. For instance, each child had to go to the school, and church services were hold in the language of the majority (and not in Latin anymore). That's why the Polish minorities in Lower Silesia disappeared while the Polish majority in Upper Silesia stayed.
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
You complain that Prussia had no minority politics before the age of nationalism? And, so what?
And of course there was education before Prussia... either for children of wealthy people and/or education provided by the church, which had no use for the ideas of the enlightenment.
I object the idea to mix up Poland, Silesia, Frederick, Bismarck and to create a huge Anti-Polish conspiracy. History is a bit more complicated, and Prussias politics in Silesia were quite different from the politics in Poland.
Do you know that Frederick also invited Czechs and Poles to Silesia? How does this get along with his alleged Germanisation efforts?
LOL, this hurts!
1. Silesia was almost entirely protestant before the counter-reformation
2. Because of the counter-reformation (do you know what the counter-reformation actually was?) a large number of people fled to Saxony, Brandenburg and Poland (so much for religious freedom)
3. this Silesian matter was so important that several conflicts between Protestant and Catholic powers occured, which led the churches of peace, among other things
4. the border churches along the Silesian border also show the large number of Protestants
5. the building of a church and the appointment of a pastor were a matter of the community, the Prussian state just gave the permission. You think all the Protestant churches which popped up shortly after Prussias takeover were built for fun?
No, Poles were actually a minority already in 1400, when Germans surpassed them.
in German - for all including Polish subjects - I don't call that liberal - btw there was some education there before with Polish tutors which the decree of Frederic the Great clearly states -
You complain that Prussia had no minority politics before the age of nationalism? And, so what?
And of course there was education before Prussia... either for children of wealthy people and/or education provided by the church, which had no use for the ideas of the enlightenment.
it's interesting you object to the idea of deliberate germanization policy of the Prussian state (against obviosity and sources)
I object the idea to mix up Poland, Silesia, Frederick, Bismarck and to create a huge Anti-Polish conspiracy. History is a bit more complicated, and Prussias politics in Silesia were quite different from the politics in Poland.
Do you know that Frederick also invited Czechs and Poles to Silesia? How does this get along with his alleged Germanisation efforts?
there was enough freedom of religion in Silesia before the Prussian conquest and what Prussian state actually did was imposing a new lutheran state-run church (in some places Old-Lutheran church remained which did not pursue any germanization policy)
LOL, this hurts!
1. Silesia was almost entirely protestant before the counter-reformation
2. Because of the counter-reformation (do you know what the counter-reformation actually was?) a large number of people fled to Saxony, Brandenburg and Poland (so much for religious freedom)
3. this Silesian matter was so important that several conflicts between Protestant and Catholic powers occured, which led the churches of peace, among other things
4. the border churches along the Silesian border also show the large number of Protestants
5. the building of a church and the appointment of a pastor were a matter of the community, the Prussian state just gave the permission. You think all the Protestant churches which popped up shortly after Prussias takeover were built for fun?
btw Poles were the majority in many areas of Lower Silesia in 1764
No, Poles were actually a minority already in 1400, when Germans surpassed them.
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
Other forums are hardly a good source, especially when the discussion centers around small linguistic islands and different periods of time.
simply wrong it seems - read the discussion in hisorycy.pl which quotes sources
Other forums are hardly a good source, especially when the discussion centers around small linguistic islands and different periods of time.
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
Hmm... let me think. Thousands and thousands of Silesians fled to other countries during the Habsburg rule since their faith was surpressed (by force!). During Prussian rule thousands of Poles and Czechs settled in Silesia.
Looks like faith was much more of an issue than language in pre-nationalistic times.
Hmm... let me think. Thousands and thousands of Silesians fled to other countries during the Habsburg rule since their faith was surpressed (by force!). During Prussian rule thousands of Poles and Czechs settled in Silesia.
Looks like faith was much more of an issue than language in pre-nationalistic times.
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
These districts in Lower Silesia were mostly close to Upper Silesia or the Polish border and hosted Polish linguistic enclaves. That's nothing new. But even there Poles were a minority. Only in some villages they formed a majority.
These districts in Lower Silesia were mostly close to Upper Silesia or the Polish border and hosted Polish linguistic enclaves. That's nothing new. But even there Poles were a minority. Only in some villages they formed a majority.
Palivec
5 May 2011
History / The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction [118]
Entire towns were seldom demolished because of the German origin but rather forfeit due to, how to call it... emotional resistance by the new owners, and later destroyed. Prominent examples of towns damaged or even completely destroyed after the war can be found mostly in Silesia, since the war didn't affect the southern part. Jelenia Gora, Klotzko, Luban, Strzelin, Lwówek Śląski, Legnica, Nysa, Brzeg are examples of towns that suffered after the war. Some lost their old town entirely after the war, like Jelenia Gora and Legnica, others were damaged to rebuild Warsaw, like Brzeg, Nysa and Wrocław.
Entire towns were seldom demolished because of the German origin but rather forfeit due to, how to call it... emotional resistance by the new owners, and later destroyed. Prominent examples of towns damaged or even completely destroyed after the war can be found mostly in Silesia, since the war didn't affect the southern part. Jelenia Gora, Klotzko, Luban, Strzelin, Lwówek Śląski, Legnica, Nysa, Brzeg are examples of towns that suffered after the war. Some lost their old town entirely after the war, like Jelenia Gora and Legnica, others were damaged to rebuild Warsaw, like Brzeg, Nysa and Wrocław.
Palivec
6 May 2011
History / The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction [118]
Why? Klotzkos old town was partly destroyed between 1959 and 1970 due to subsidence damages, which the new owners of the town didn't correct at an early stage.
Then Poles historians lie, since my Polish source mentions Legnica and Lwówek Śląski. And btw., all Communist regimes prefered to built precast concrete slabs to counter the housing shortage, since it was much cheaper than preserving historic town centers.
So, you think the old town of Jelenia Gora always looked like this:
Because, earlier the town looked like this:
Strange, isn't it? But since you ignored the pictures of Legnica too I think you don't want to know the truth but prefer to believe in your little fairy tale.
Oh, and thank you for calling me an idiot, you uninformed *]/%°>.
As I previously said, not everything can be explained by the war. During the early 50s Wrocław delivered up to 165 million bricks to Warsaw... each year. The whole eastern part of the old town, which was partly rebuildable, was sacrificed for it. Usually people like you have no clue how big the old town of Wrocław actually was.
But Wrocław is a completely different case anyway, since it was the main stage of the Communist propaganda efforts.
That's all I want to say here... ;)
where do you live actually?
Why? Klotzkos old town was partly destroyed between 1959 and 1970 due to subsidence damages, which the new owners of the town didn't correct at an early stage.
Thats a lie i'm sorry, people needed homes , nobody "forfeited" them.
Then Poles historians lie, since my Polish source mentions Legnica and Lwówek Śląski. And btw., all Communist regimes prefered to built precast concrete slabs to counter the housing shortage, since it was much cheaper than preserving historic town centers.
You're an idiot none of cities you listed lost their old town, not even partially.
So, you think the old town of Jelenia Gora always looked like this:
Because, earlier the town looked like this:
Strange, isn't it? But since you ignored the pictures of Legnica too I think you don't want to know the truth but prefer to believe in your little fairy tale.
Oh, and thank you for calling me an idiot, you uninformed *]/%°>.
Omitted ones I won't comment about and I left just Wroclaw.
In short, in regards to that city, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Google Festung Breslau.
In short, in regards to that city, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Google Festung Breslau.
As I previously said, not everything can be explained by the war. During the early 50s Wrocław delivered up to 165 million bricks to Warsaw... each year. The whole eastern part of the old town, which was partly rebuildable, was sacrificed for it. Usually people like you have no clue how big the old town of Wrocław actually was.
But Wrocław is a completely different case anyway, since it was the main stage of the Communist propaganda efforts.
OK, mix the new communist system with general hatred to Germans after the horrendous war and then you will get the generally deprecating attitude to German property.
That's all I want to say here... ;)
Palivec
6 May 2011
History / Poles in the Napoleonic era [224]
The general problem is that in Poland quotes of German politicians and rulers are frequently seen out of context to prove a point. Frederick II was probably the Prussian king who cared the least about such things as nationality. He spoke bad German... I think he actually spoke German only to his horses, he had a low opinion of Germans, he didn't care about religions. His entire mindset was practical and directed to raise Prussias standing. For instance, his attitude towards Jews was strictly practical. He supported them in one area to promote trade, and tried to limit their influence in other areas where the Jews dominated business.
I'm sure the quote about Polish teachers has a completely different background, especially since he promoted the settling of Poles and Czechs in other parts of Silesia.
The general problem is that in Poland quotes of German politicians and rulers are frequently seen out of context to prove a point. Frederick II was probably the Prussian king who cared the least about such things as nationality. He spoke bad German... I think he actually spoke German only to his horses, he had a low opinion of Germans, he didn't care about religions. His entire mindset was practical and directed to raise Prussias standing. For instance, his attitude towards Jews was strictly practical. He supported them in one area to promote trade, and tried to limit their influence in other areas where the Jews dominated business.
I'm sure the quote about Polish teachers has a completely different background, especially since he promoted the settling of Poles and Czechs in other parts of Silesia.
Palivec
7 May 2011
History / Where did the power of Poland vanish to, since... let`s say, some 300 years ago? [180]
How can a society without a developed urban middle class (missing industry and cities) be "one of the most innovative, tolerant and advanced countries"? Who was innovative and developed this "advanced" country? The Szlachta? Or the serfs?
Poland for most of its history and especially reinessance was one of the most innovative, tolerant and advanced countries, what it lacked was industry and cities but thats a different story.
How can a society without a developed urban middle class (missing industry and cities) be "one of the most innovative, tolerant and advanced countries"? Who was innovative and developed this "advanced" country? The Szlachta? Or the serfs?