News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]


Interesting, though not surprising. This area was another melting pot. My sources said Zittau had a lot of Czechs, I suspect four of them did at any rate after being sacked by the Hussites in the 1430s. But I'm interested to learn more, I knew Bautzen was an early center of the Sorbs but I wasn't aware of large numbers of the Sorbs in Bautzen in the late Medieval period? You don't happen to have a source for this do you? I'm interested to learn more.

G

I hope I don't come across as trying to undermine Poland, it's not my intention. I'm sorry for reviving the thread.

G

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Thanks,

Yeah I've noticed that. Some really rabid anti-polish regulars on this forum, a few pro-polish forumites who seem to have a lot of agnst as well.

Where do most of these anti-polish posters come from? US? UK? Germany?

Among people I know in the US I think they really just don't know anything about Poland other than Kielbasa and Polka. Lots of people in the US of Polish heritage but we haven't had polish immigration on a large scale in a while, at least not near where I live. I don't think people here have a sense of what Poland or Polish people are like.

I remember when I was in France several years ago there was this controversy about Eastern European immigrants in the French economy and the catch-phrase they used was the "Polish Plumber". Then I remember reading a little while later that Poland had made an ad campaign around a handsome plumber, inviting tourists to come to Poland. It seemed very clever, turned the whole stereotype right on it's head.

When I visited Czech republic for the first time I was shocked by how prosperous and beautiful it was. I think if most Americans had any real idea what North-Eastern Europe was like they would have a very positive view of it. But it really doesn't even exist in our media except in ridiculous films like "hostel".

Anyway, I didn't mean to open a can of worms. I naively thought the somewhat multicultural family history of Kopernik would be inspirational and really (in my opinion) puts Poland in a rather positive light.

G

News / GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE! [1016]

Thanks, interesting analysis. I do know some Czechs, specifically the Chodov / Psohlavci did in fact live in some border areas somewhat in thee manner of the Polish Gorali, but that was in the south not in Lusatia. What you mentioned about Czechs fleeing to Zittau during the counter-reformation explains perhaps why the english language Wiki asserts that it was a Czech town. Do you know of evidence that the towns had Sorb populations (living inside the town walls not in the Feldmark around it?) As for the "De-Germanization" I know this did happen to a fairly large extent throughout many towns in Moravia and all over Bohemia as well, even further east in what is now Slovakia, as most of the Germans remained Catholic. Only in some zones like around Pilsen were they strong enough to fight off the Hussite armies at the height of their power. Of course there were also a significant number of Germans who were sympathetic to the Hussite cause, and those remained for the most part, including in Prague.

I actually have read more Czech and Polish novels than histories so far, which is what makes me feel that cultural affinity for them. Most of my history comes from 'primary sources' as much as possible, and to a lesser extent through military history sources like Hans Delbruck and Jacob Burckhardt. Though I have read some Polish historical novels (the Henryk Seinkowicz novels) which I know were propagandish to some extent but also fairly accurate. What has endeared me to slavic / central European culture are the 20th Century writers Jersy Kosinsky, Stanislaw Lem (during the Communist era but I do not think biased toward Communist propaganda!) Jaroslav Hasec, Carel Capek, and Franz Kafka among others. The only Polish historians I have some familiarity with are excerpts of some of the work of the 15th Century Jan Długosz (whose complete works are, very sadly, still unavailable in English) which is also biased and even fantastical in parts, but really, no more than most other source from that time... and quite interesting because the man personally knew most of the power players of his era and participated in several of the key events. And some of the various chronicles from Bohemia at that time, cross referenced with the several sources from the Teutonic Order and a few from Scandinavia, and the Chronicles of Novgorod.

I will say that some of the historical films I've seen from the Communist era in Czechoslovakia and Poland (such as the trilogy of films about Jan Ziska, Alexander Ford's "Krzyzacy", and the With Fire and Sword trilogy), while heavily biased in their point of view, are more accurate on a technical level than any equivalent films set in Medieval times produced by the Americanss or British. And less obviously biased than the post-Communist Russian films I've seen like Taras Bulba or 1612. And to be honest, if you go back and watch American films from the 1950's and 1960's they are pretty sharply slanted toward American Cold War proaganda for that matter.

But I tend to view everything with a grain of salt. You have to try to cross reference sources, history is a tricky puzzle.

G

History / Księga Elbląska (the Prussian city of Elbing legal document) [8]

Thanks, I was hoping to find an English translation of the whole thing, but I appreciate the help here, I can look that one up and use automatic translation software to look at it. Thanks mate :)

Sounds like a pretty mild punishment for rape! Though I'm not familiar with that particular currency, is that equivalent to a groschen? I'll have to look that up as well. It's also confusing that it refers to 'knightly' status, in the towns it would be more relevant to be of burgher status, i.e. to have burgher or grossburgher citizenship.

I wish I could read Polish, it seems like this document will be an interesting insight into this world.

Thanks again,

G.

History / Księga Elbląska (the Prussian city of Elbing legal document) [8]

I'm interested in all of it. I'm aware what a mark is! So grzywna means a mark. Back then a mark is roughly equivalent to 352 grams or 12 ounces of silver, so I'm guessing it is a gold coin? There were so many currencies in use in the area though it's rather bewildering. I wasn't even aware the Mark was an actual coin all the references I'd seen in German records referred to it more like a unit of book-keeping like the French Livre often was. Coins seem to be in denominations of Florin / Gulden, Thaeler, Kreuzer, Groschen, the Prague Groschen or Kutna Hora Groschen, the Pfennig, and the Dinari... I didn't even know about the wiardunek, skojec, and szeląg either. Thanks for teaching me this:)

So anyway if it means 50 marks, that is a very steep fine actually. Not many people would be able to pay that. It's enough money to buy 4 or 5 of the most expensive 'proofed' Milanese armours for example. So what happens if you can't pay the fine?

I look forward to any further translation of any laws from the Ksiega Wieczysta. The laws on rape are interesting because in some forms of German law in use in some of these towns (i.e. Lubeck law and Magdeburg Law) rape was supposed to be punishable by death. But that may not have been the actual practice in Prussia, these town-charters were kind of cookie -cutter but were adapted to different standards in different areas.

Thanks for your help,

G.

History / Księga Elbląska (the Prussian city of Elbing legal document) [8]

This is wonderful stuff, thanks especially for the link to that image.

Part of the confusion of coinage terms is that we tend to think of a stable value but we are talking about a period of Centuries in a vast region (even if we just mean North Eastern / Central Europe) so the values fluctuate considerably.

Do you know much about a type of currency called a Nogata? I was interested in that due to an evocative reference in the Chronicle of Novgorod

Similarly with the law and fines. They changed over time both in their enforcement and their written definition, the Księga Elbląska apparently dates from the 13th or early 14th Century, the Royal and Town laws changed dramatically between then and the time of Kazimierz Wielki or Kazimierz IV Jagiellończyk who were setting the groundwork for the mighty Kingdom Poland became in the Renaissance.

I think this interesting concept you mention of the "mir" relates to the German term Landfried, also called Landfrýdy in Czech. This was a complex idea derived from the earlier Catholic attempts at a "gods peace" or "Peace and Freedom of God movement", but it was a secular political union between the estates of a given region which lacks a strong central authority. Landfrieden typically consist of both gentry and peasantry as well as independent Church prelates (Bishops and Abbots) in some type of council or diet, which in turn appoints “justices of the peace of the roads” who collectively enforce the freedom or peace of the roads, punishing bandits, robber knights and other malefactors whose activities disrupt public commerce. The main reason for this was to prevent famine and regional starvation as often happened after wars when people were being too reckless, such as during the Hunger War. Famines were more perilous after the Black Death because they often led to outbreaks of plague. I know concretely that some regions in Bohemia, Moravia, Prussia and Pomerania, and I believe in parts of Silesia and Masovia too were essentially governed by Landfried, with or without some theoretical Prince or King as overlord (often absentee). Poland of course had real royal authority but I think it fluctuated in terms of strength and rarely had the ability to fully control every district.

There was also something called Landsgemeinde which were peasant associations or Communes, like the Slavic Veche seen in some parts of Russia. They had Landsgemeinde in Saxony in this big marsh called the 'Dishmarshen' and of course in Switzerland where some Cantons are still run this way, and the Zaporozhian Cossacks had some equivalent to this. I don't know if it existed in Poland for sure or not, or what the Polish equivalent would be. Eventually obviously anything like this was replaced and superceeded in Poland by the Szlachta.

G

History / A view of Poland from far far away [14]


I may have failed in many respects, but I was not trying to 'suck up'. I was trying to convey my perspective, for context. I knew it was too wordy and was going to pare it down but I was used to other forums where you could edit a bit after posting.


Of course, I am fairly well-read on Polish history. I just didn't know too many Poles when I wrote the OP. I do know a few now.


I didn't think I said otherwise? I understood the reason for the propaganda. I also read a bit about Sienkiewicz and his experiences in the US. There is kind of a cinematic or literary link I can see between John Ford Westerns, Kirosawa Samurai films, and Sergio Argento 'spaghetti' westerns. Perhaps Sienkiewicz fit's into that pattern a bit.


I wasn't sucking up to anything. I knew the films weren't too popular (or were complained about) but they are still better than anything we have in the US.


New Orleans isn't pathetic, I wonder how much you actually know about it to have such a specific point of view? I understand the beef about occupation. It's a bigger deal for a whole country. What I was trying to convey is that it leads to a different type of 'nationalism' so to speak. Parochialism. We are pretty proud here as well. I don't like people insulting my home any more than you do.


That's something I didn't know. But it seems like a rather broad generalization.


Maybe not but there were most certainly city states in it. At least based on Jan Dlugosz whose Annales I have read, among many other historians.


Nobody forced you to read it amigo.

G