History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]

Read the thread, before. What Ukrainians were there in 1939 to make an alliance with? Any names? Like some Ukrainian head of state, or, at least, some General Staff of the mighty Ukrainian army? Any rogue vatazhka only waiting to fight the Germans and the Soviets, provided the Poles smile to him? Petlura was long dead.


Any facts to explain your amusement?


Right. But, you know, stupid threads tend to wander.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


Oh, their view was clouded by Poles, and Polish view was typical Polish. That explains a lot, actually.


Lithuanian, you mean the region with overwhelming Polish majority, under Polish control, granted to Lithuania by the Soviets in the 1920 Treaty in exchange for the right to freely move troops through Lithuania against Poland?

Czech territory... You mean Czechoslovakia would've had succesfully attacked Germany in 1939, only if Poland hadn't taken that bit near Cieszyn a year before. As it were, they were simply pouting. Good they didn't help the Germans, we'd have been taken in hours then, and no Polish legend of September. What with the famous Czech ferocity and immense army.

Got any other candidates for Polish allies in 1939? Belarussians? Lemkos? Kashebe? Wolochians?


In September 1939? Hardly. And there was no UPA yet. And they considered themselves an army. Did I miss anything? Oh, yes. They were nationalists. Ukrainian nationalists, fighting to carve a Ukrainian state out of Polish territory. That's why they murdered Poles, not Germans.


Cultural differences, possibly. That PM signed a treaty.

Poland had a rather limited choice, delph.


No, I haven't. And never heard anybody suggesting it.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


I say Poland did. You say Poland was routed. I say Poland was ready for a long defence in Polesie, with Germans running out of supplies, you say Poland was defeated.


Became obvious. A bit late to include this truth in the defence plans. That's what we call the Western Betrayal exactly. Promises of engaging the common enemy in due time, not fulfilled.


Except if the Allies did a little bit, with traditional army. Like bombing. Or moving some divisions a little bit more to the East. Into the German territory, like. With intent to proceed, Inshallah.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


Etc.

You're hopeless, man, really. Do some proper reading before you start posting opinions on Polish history. I can understand your pro-Michnik stance on how communism fell, but WW2 should be free of this bias. I thought.


Right. Now ask the Lithuanians and Czechs what is their typical Polish view. Ukrainians had no army, if I may refresh your memory.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


It's a symbol. Never mind. A Polish thing.


Yeah, I've seen this one before. 'Now how could the British send troops through the German controlled Baltic, please?'

And how about through Germany, delph? But this would require actually engaging the Germans, hmm... seems you're right... impossible thing. For the Brits.


:)) so giving up the indefensible part of Poland is 'being routed by Germans in a few days', but giving up the whole country is a good idea to you. And then we will show them our guerillas.


I say they should've formed an alliance with Germany. And Mexico. Solomon Islands wouldn't be a bad choice neither. Or we could've attacked the USA in July and surrender the next day, unconditionally.

Harry doesn't do you any good, delph.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


I don't think the Catholic population of Poland had much say in organizing the army. Somehow I can't imagine Polish generals including divine intervention if the military doctrine. Somehow I am under an impression that you actually have no clue. Not that I would expect it from a foreigner, but, please, the General Staff praying devoutly to Mary the Virgin to repel enemy tanks? Just how stupid Poles can be, what do you say?

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


And I thought it was NKWD, silly me. Anyway, in Poland it is not considered a military action. Whoever is doing it.


Killing works, no doubt.

delph, what are you trying to prove. What's so exceptionally smart in murdering people so that they can't spend the rest of the war in the POW camp? How ingenuous it is? Nobody ever tried this brilliant idea before?


Is it? You think murdering Poles by Russians was such a novelty? Never heard of before in Poland? You really seem to think that Katyn was the greatest Soviet crime ever.


Wrong perspective, delph, totally. What really hurt was the Western Treason. We never expected anything good from the East, and especially after the reds took over.


You really consider Poland a backward country. What is the actual result of Poland losing those 20 thousand people, that can be felt until today?


And BB blames the Versaille Treaty :) You say Poland should just roll over in 1920, to avoid the subsequent humiliation?


Polish archives are open. The British ones are not.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]

Must be a cultural difference. Poles, including me, do not consider murdering defenceless prisoners a military action. And tactics, as understood in Poland, it's something that involves, you know, being smart on the run, not just shooting people with hands tied up behind their backs.



Well, if you say that 20 thousand educated people was all that Poland had before the war... and if we neglect some 1.5 million of middle-to-upper class relocated to Siberia and Kazachstan... and if you do not put the German efforts in the equation... then you might be somewhere close to the historical truth.

Katyn was not a substantial blow, even the 'few' remaining military were able to almost immediately organise an effective network of underground, and the others formed the army in the West. Katyn was a symbol of the Soviet barbarism, totally neglected for decades, that's why it's so important. The 'Ally' murders our people, and 'you' don't bloody give a damn.

Stalin regretted it later on, anyway. So much for tactical genius.


Well. It led to Poland, Belarus and Ukraine almost Jewish-free, so it worked like marvel, I'd say. In terms of social engineering. And it would be highly productive if Hitler had won the war. And, I am not sure that Israel would not emerge anyway, what with the Zionist movement, including that in Germany. Hitler just wanted Jews out of Germany, or Germany controlled lands.

Those Polish Jews supporting Germans, what do you mean? Some time before the war, I am guessing?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Oh, you can, and you should. Helps a lot in everyday life. Provided the stereotype has some sense in it.

Two Somalians travel by car. Who's driving? A cop. That's just an observation, popular wisdom. Wouldn't work for people from Ghana, wouldn't work outside the UK. In London it's just common sense.


Orchestrated Anti-Polish campaign, general answer. Since I see no actual reasons to consider Poles significantly more stupid than all other immigrants to the USA. Granted, Poles were not amongst the pioneers, but there were lots of other nations that jumped the wagon rather late.

Italians did their share in creating their stereotype, Cosa Nostra was a fact. Mexicans are mostly illegal in the USA, hence the stereotype. The Irish love a drink, and are proud of it in a way. Why Poles stupid, then? Poles like a drink too.

The current stereotype of Poles in the UK: builders, cleaners, kitchen porters, they put ketchup on everything. Based on reality, no problem with it. And hardly any jokes, even good-humoured. I don't know a single one, actually. A bit disappointed, in fact.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Can be. Show me. Find me some sources showing that Poland exported mostly idiots, not like any other country. 'Obviously' other countries kept their lowly uneducated to themselves, right? Or they didn't have any, so they got rid of criminals, drunks etc. Etc. including delphiandomine.


The question, in the topic, is 'reason for...'. Means 'why'. Seems simple enough. You got an answer?

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]


:) Good to know what you consider 'military tactic'. A fantastic one, to boot. That's your personal opinion, or you follow the newspaper's line? I'm out of touch with Wyborcza.


That would be difficult, yes.

How about the Holocaust? 'Fantastic, highly effective social engineering?' Difficult to argue, I'd say.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Seems they were doing Poles a favour :)


I am assuming stereotypes have roots in reality, often quite strong. I can't actually see the roots of 'dumb Polack' stereotype, so I am assuming the reason for these jokes was not an existing stereotype, but the other way around.


Of course.

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


In Europe, I'd say so. In the US too?

Another thing, those millions of stupid Poles migrating as of late all over the Europe. Somehow I can't see any wave of 'stupid Pole' jokes. In Germany, afaik, it's mostly about searching for your stolen car somewhere East of that river, wossname...

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Yet this ignorance results in showing Italians as mafiosi, and Poles as idiots. Different kind of ignorance?


Exactly my question, worth repeating again. Any 'Ruski jokes' in the USA?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


This was further on, right.

The question remains, how come that only stupid Poles migrated, and not stupid Italians, Germans, Irish, whatever, as it has been suggested here.


I just did a hasty research:
Italians - predominantly criminals, mafiosi
Mexicans - lazy thieves
Irish - stupid, Catholic, drunk (not sure these were American jokes)
Germans - ?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


And why not? Seems a popular sport in Europe.


That's what I thought. A result of Polonia crying, I guess.


Interesting interpretation. Seems like history repeats itself? Couple of million stupid Poles fled Poland after 1990, having lost the Soviet protection, and the intelligent ones stayed there to build the 3rd RP?

Why not start with some solid background? Surprisingly easy:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_joke
Many of the so called "Polish jokes" originated from Nazi German and Soviet hate propaganda in conjunction with their joint invasion of Poland and further attempts at confounding of the Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and Soviet repressions. Some of these jokes were subsequently brought to Hollywood from war-torn Europe with waves of Anti-Polish bigots.

However,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polish_sentiment#United_States
British writer Christie Davies in The Mirth of Nations, which suggests that "Polish jokes" did not originate in Nazi Germany but much earlier, as an outgrowth of regional jokes rooted in "social class differences reaching back to the nineteenth century." According to Davies, American versions of Polish jokes are an unrelated "purely American phenomenon"

For decades, Polish Americans have been the subject of derogatory jokes originating in anti-immigrant stereotypes that had developed in the U.S. before the 1920s. During the Partitions of Poland, Polish immigrants came to America in considerable numbers, fleeing mass persecution at home.

So it's not 'distance and ignorance', and not a 'usual thing not worth mentioning'. But no explanation still. Why would the citizens of the land of the brave make such effort to denigrate Poles in particular? And the Irish, I think...?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


I see. There must be hell of a lot of jokes on stupid Kalmyks too.


Somebody mentioned here that Polish jokes were popular in some media. Doesn't look like rednecks to me.


:)


Doesn't work against TV

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Really? The nigger thing? What the world has come to....


You shouldn't be surprised, Poles in Poland hardly know Polack jokes. But believe me, they would be upset.

Ethnic jokes are an artistic expression of common stereotypes, so you can pretty accurately predict what the 'German' or 'Russian' joke will be about, and only then it is considered funny. If the pictured stereotype falls far off the mark, it just says that the intent is to propagate this particular opinion. Now what would be the reason for Americans to consider Poles so stupid?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Seems a fresh import. Wonder where it came from.


Certainly. Hardly any 'n-sensitive' people in this country. What's the social circle you're referring to? Not the GW spheres, I presume?

Life / What is the reason for POLISH jokes ? [486]


Hardly ever on TV though


There's no such word in Polish.

Language / Z pięćdziesięciorgiem dwojgiem dzieci? [26]


Sto dzieci, dziesięciu mężczyzn i cztery psy. It's not complicated, you just got three independent groups, one after another.

Language / Z pięćdziesięciorgiem dwojgiem dzieci? [26]

I was thinking about it some time after posting. I have no problem with 'z dwojgiem dzieci', 'z pięćdziesięciorgiem siedmiorgiem dzieci' etc. but when the number becomes longer, that is when it has 3 or more digits, my syntax changes, and 'ze 199 dzieci' just doesn't sound right.

At first I thought it's just some peculiarity of my personal Polish. But, how would you say 'with 100 children'? Ze stu dziećmi, isn't it? Or 'ze stoma dziećmi'... definitely 'z tysiącem dzieci', the numeral here becomes the object, at the expense of kids, and it feels similarly to me with 199. But then it's just a feeling, possibly the actual rule is that the weight of the last non-zero digit dictates the case...?

Language / Z pięćdziesięciorgiem dwojgiem dzieci? [26]

I reckon it goes up to 99. Ze stu dziewięćdziesięciorgiem dziewięciorgiem dziećmi. Dziećmi, not dzieci.


Trzydzieścioro siedmioro ludzi. Trzystu pięćdziesięciu jeden ludzi. Ludzi is easier, it takes masculine quite easily. Dzieci is more of a problem. Trzysta pięćdziesięcioro [i]jedno dziecko.


Osiemnaściorga. Tysiąc czterysta osiemnaściorga. Dla stu dwadzieściorga jednego dziecka. Dla stu dwudziestu jeden dzieci... sounds quite popular, though, somehow. Although, yes, it has that burakish tint.

You don't have real problems, do you? :) Who counts hundreds of children with this accuracy.

edit: dla tysiąc czterystu osiemnaściorga. Sorry. Polska linga difficulta molto.

Po polsku / Tragedia jezykowa, czyli "stay on topic" LOL. [95]


To może mieć małe znaczenie, ludzie się przemieszczali po wojnie. Ale nie upieram się.


Pamiętanie ma mało co do obyczajów językowych, logika podobnież :)

Powiem szczerze, sam nie jestem pewny jak mówię, czy półtora dnia i półtorej doby. Muszę kiedyś posłuchać. Na rozum, to jaby masz rację, i to nawet brzmi zdecydowanie naturalnie. Na przyzwyczajenie, to sam ciekawy jestem.

News / Poles don't have a heart for math... says The New York Times [84]

As would I, in fact. The event itself somehow doesn't seem to me important enough to report it over the ocean, so it rather looks like they're just taking the opportunity to say what they want to say. But, this is what they call 'teoria spiskowa', innit.

Po polsku / Tragedia jezykowa, czyli "stay on topic" LOL. [95]


Nie jest to przypadkiem regionalizm, po prostu? Takie mam wrażenie, że na wschodzie 'półtorej' jest bardzo popularne.

News / Poles don't have a heart for math... says The New York Times [84]


Well, there's no Polish School of Mathematics there, reasons unclear, although possibly not really suspicious, as it is really hard to get squeezed into the first 30 of al times.

The article is bollocks, though. Either those Polish professors were misquoted, or they just don't really know Polish history.

During the 19th century there were two main efforts of retaining Polish identity, the 'romantic' one, resulting in insurrections, and the 'positivist' one, which meant 'retaining the Polish substance' by education, social advance, growing influence. After the last insurrection in 1863, the positivist attitude took the upper hand, and it resulted in patriotic Poles both seeking and spreading education. The result was that Poland was exporting engineers to the vastness of the Russian Empire and the world in general.

After 1918 those migrants flocked back to Poland, to rebuild it after the WW1 fronts had levelled it down, and together with the locals they performed the miracle of raising from the ashes.

The Polish School of Mathematics is not something one can suddenly conjure out of thin air, it needs at least one generation of popular, sound education in mathematics, in order to create the pool from which to choose those most talented. And this 'at least one' generation needed the teachers to educate them. This generation created the 'Enigma trio', and allowed the Polish intelligence to read German Enigma codes long before the war. Turing was basing his developments on Polish achievements. This was not a handful of mavericks, it was a result of a long lasting effort.

And the commies didn't suppress the technical education neither, they needed engineers to develop the industry. There was nothing much to improve on the technical and scientific education after the fall of communism, actually the impression is that the post-commie 'improvements' were a step back in this area. Only as late as 2001 maths ceased to be obligatory as matura subject. A huge mistake in opinion of plenty of Poles.

So, my conclusion is, that either the NYT is (understandably) ignorant about the development of Polish education during the last 2 centuries, or it is just another, this time nicely veiled, attempt to present Poles as a bunch of simpletons. It doesn't matter at all that they use quotations from renowned Polish scientist to promote the idea. 'Creative quoting'' is one of the basic tools of dedicated journalism.

And now go compare the Polish education in maths, however damaged it may be in the recent decade or two, with the country once being in the avant garde of technical development, where stating 'my maths is miserable' is considered a fashionable attitude of a successful individual. And by 'maths' they mean the four basic arithmetic operations... For a Pole, it's a shock. I could tell stories about it, Poles in Poland would not believe.

So, this article is bollocks.

Sorry for the long post, but I've been cut off the Internet for 5 days...

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


Then 9 years was not enough in your case, simple. It's not about time spent, it's about that little effort of acknowledging that people can think differently. Tell a Pole he might become Jewish, he'll laugh at a stupid American. Tell a Jew he is a Pole, he will laugh at a stupid American. This is Poland, in Europe, not the USA.

Just in case: I am not saying you are stupid. I am saying you are not interested. Typical for the Americans :)

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]


Really. I don't think (so). Polish Jew is a Jew born and bred in Poland, he is not a Pole. And he doesn't want to be a Pole, he is a Jew. American Pole is a Pole who was lucky enough to get the US citizenship. He is a Polish American too, no problem, depends on the mood.


Americans don't understand that, I know. Thing is, if you want to know what the world outside the USA is like, you have to apply a non-American way of thinking. Otherwise most things will be nonsense to you.


Welcome to Europe :)

Not to the EU, which is a different thing. They even consider (reluctantly) admitting Turkey to Europe.


If you want to understand Poland, you have to learn how to see things from Polish perspective. American POV is useless here and misleading.


Envied.... :)

AFAIK, getting the US passport entitles you to feel 100% American the very moment you grab it. Not so across the pond, as the Brits call it. Definitely not so in Poland. To be a Pole, you need layers of white-and-red moss sentimental about sabres to grow on your skin. Speaking figuratively :) It's nationality, not citizenship.

News / Victory in 'anti-Polish camps' campaign in US [170]

It's about Poland, not the USA. Different country, different culture, things understood differently. American take on nationality leads to ridiculous conclusions in Poland.