Genealogy / Why Polish aren't white?? [272]

What I find funny is that some of you actually think you are "white" and are actually upset. Whiteness is a social-historical construct, not some biological essence that you can have. It is used to include some and exclude others. Historically, Polish people were considered Slavic in the United States, not white. Whiteness belonged to Western/Northern Europeans.

Either way... why be so upset about being excluded from one of the most violent and ugliest labels in history? Growing up in Poland I was always taught that I was "Polish", not "white". Color doesn't matter there as much as it does in the West. Or have things changed as Poland attempts to play catch-up with the West?

From a biological point of view the white race is a fiction. No one is white, but some are stupid enough to believe it or to want it.

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]


Like which ones? Go ahead and name them.

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

What you could not do for a 1000 years, you are trying to do with you German led European Union. But the truth is Polish nationalism is not going to warm up to you anytime fast.

Here is a list of our Polish-German alliance as it played itself out through history. The battles Poland fought when it was first born (Piast period) are:

# 972, against Germany
# 1003–1005, against Germany
# 1007–1013, against Germany
# 1015–1018, against Germany
# 1018, against Kievan Rus
# 1072, against Bohemia
# 1109, against Germany
# 1146, against Germany
# 1156, against Germany
# 1241, Mongol invasion of Poland, with prominent Battle of Legnica
# 1326–1333, against the Teutonic Order, Battle of Płowce

Should I keep going (Jagiellon period is not much different)? You`ll find our friendship more or less develop in this pattern for a millennium. Don`t tell me we`re pretty much the same. We developed our sense of ourselves in the need to defend ourselves from your relentless appetite.

And for the record you invented antipolonism.

History / Polish-German alliance. [489]

This thread is sickening. Poland and Germany are antithetical nations. The main reason we are christian is so Germany wouldn't colonize our "heathen" pagan lands. We took baptism as a way to resist your attempts to civilize us.

Why don't you German "friends" start your own forum instead of colonizing this one? Or is that just what you do best?


If we ignore 1000 years of incursions, invasions, and wars which always necessitate such propaganda... we can start with anti-Polish rhetoric in 18th c. Prussia. The German naturalist, ethnologist, travel writer, and journalist, Georg Forster, dismissed the idea that the Poles were a part of European culture, comparing them to primitive tribes and portraying Poland as an underdeveloped, uncivilized land awaiting the importation of Kultur from "truly civilized countries". Frederick the Great called us the the "Iroquois of Europe" and "a barbarous people sunk in ignorance and stupidity". Many German academics in the 18th – 20th century, wrote about the difference between Germany and Poland as a boundary between civilization and barbarism; high German Kultur, and "primitive Slavdom".

Many racist texts about Poland were published between the 18th and 20th century, and these were republished by Nazi Germany.

Don't forget also that during those wonderful years of the partition of Poland, Poles were subjected to routine discrimination. Otto von Bismarck described Poles as animals (wolves), that "one shoots if one can" and implemented several harsh laws aiming at their expulsion from traditionally Polish lands. The Polish language was banned from public, and ethnically Polish children tortured at schools, just for speaking Polish. Poles were also subjected to a wave of forceful evictions (Rugi Pruskie).

No anti-Polish propaganda? Please, you guys invented antipolonism.

Genealogy / Are all Poles blue eyed and blonde? [451]

I don't know where this stereotype comes from. Polish people have light pale to olive oil skin. I personally get mistaken for Persian or Turkish all the time, and both my parents are Polish. Everyone on both sides of our family has a dark complexion.

Historically, Poles have are the product of mixing. There is no 100% pure Polish look. We've been invaded by Vikings and by Turks, Tartars, Mongolians, etc... so perhaps that helps to explain the wide variety of signatures on our Slavic looks.

Genealogy / Why Polish aren't white?? [272]


I don't think that race is like money. Money actually refers to something that has a material and quantifiable existence -- namely, socially necessary labor time. Prices are the expression of the value of commodities in the value of the money commodity chosen as a monetary standard. Money may be a universal medium of exchange, but it is also a commodity itself (a gold piece for example, can be traded for some cloth, because both gold and cloth are produced at the same cost).

Race, on the other hand, refers to nothing concrete, material or quantifiable. There is nothing that all members of the "Black" or "Caucasian" race" have in common. However, race operates as if it referred to something concrete and essential. Race, in other words, wants you to believe that it represents something real, when in fact it has no biological, anthropological, or natural scientific grounds for existence. Money has economic activity. Race has nothing.

I will, however, agree that even though it doesn't exist, because people act as race was real, race produces real consequences. So, it is "real" only in this consequential sense. People die on battle grounds for gods, nations and other fictions too.

Genealogy / Why Polish aren't white?? [272]


They are actually correct. In the US, Polish immigrants have not always been able to swiftly pass off as "white." Polish identity has variously been described as "probationary white" or "off-white", especially before WWII. There are sociological journals that in the 1920s use the cateogies Slavic (which is "technically" the "race type" for Polish people), next to such categories as White, African, Hebrew and Asian.

There are many reasons for that. One of the main one being that whiteness was deployed as a social concept by Western/Northern Europeans. It was used as an ideological tool of colonialism, and Poland did not partake in colonial adventures and as such had no claim to "true whiteness." The same holds true for other Eastern and Southern European powers, and this also explains why many of them are also on the margins of whiteness.

The other major reason is that race has a lot to do with social status. Polish immigrants "everyone knows" are good for cheap, manual work. They typically do not occupy high places on the social prestige scale. Whiteness is a flexible concept that can expand to include or contract to exclude almost anyone.


Exactly. Race is created through various scientific discourses that name and analyze it. There is a story of a ship's captain that I think is worth retelling here. It is set in the 17th century. The ship is departing from a port in England and once it set sails, the captain gathers his crew in order to give them a speech. He tells them that they "are all white men now". The captain along with 18th century anthropology, natural history, philosophy, criminology and a collection of many other sciences became preoccupied with the differences between "races." They start talking about it, naming it, seeing it. Race is an excellent example of the persistent and real nature of social constructs.


I am and am not. Some people take me as white, some ask me if I am, some tell me I am "off-white."


I don't know where this assumption that Poland is a Nordic country comes from? Does it come from the region? It makes no sense because Poland is a country that has a history of interaction with Tartar, Turkish, Ukrainian, Jewish, Gypsy and many other people. Some of my ancestors are among these people.


I've never heard of this. Where did you get this from?