History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


For you goes the same comment as I gave MediaWatch.
I have no patiences and tolerance for idiots like you anymore. Why don't you go blame it all on the commies? At least you know how to do that right and it so nicely distracts yourself from what everybody else already knows. The rest of your post has no relevance whatsoever to what I said earlier, it just shows your anti Jewish mentality.


Of course, after all, why would you want to admit that what those "Poland-bashers" say might actually be true? No, it's easier to make things a bit bearable as the shock of the fact that it wasn't all as glorious as you guys think it was might kill you someday. Better postpone it while you can, for it will come, it's just a matter of time. Until then, keep it rosey-red and don't think that Poles could ever done anything bad; after all, they were ALWAYS the victims? How can ppl who are every god-given area be the victim of sb or something, be the the jerries, the commies, the prussies, aussies, russies or alien invaders from the planet XLK-974, do ever anything wrong? They are all innocent lambs and all the others are evil wolves.

One Polish historian, I forget the name, said:


I think that says it pretty much all.


I Poland perhaps it's still used like that. In most other countries they have grown over it and acknowledge that what they glorified in the days of national identity-forming wasn't quite true. Admitting guilt is part of the growing process. A number of reactions on here is proof that some haven't yet.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

UK, Ireland / Why English do not like Polish? [417]

Who cares if he is Polish-American, American-Polish, from Mars or from Rinky-Dink?

Britain is clearly still shaking off their Victorian yoke :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

UK, Ireland / Why English do not like Polish? [417]


No, we're talking about those beer-bellied, bald guys; their heads a darker shade of purple from being in the sun too long, drinking more beer than is good for them; have slutty gf's who giggle when getting a sexist remark thrown at them, feel it's appropriate to start singing odd songs from home while abroad in the streets, in the bars or just anywhere they feel like, unable to speak one single word of the local language and thinking everybody likes them. And it doesn't matter where they come from, they're just as annoying. I've seen ppl like that from Britain, Sweden, Germany and Norway in Amsterdam and ppl from Britain, Sweden, Germany, Norway, Poland, Russia and the Netherlands while abroad myself. When it's Dutch that are like that, I usually pretend that I'm not Dutch as I'm embarrassed to bits for my fellow countrymen at moments like that.

Anne Clarke has a perfect description of the type of guys discussed here. In her case they're English, but they could come from anywhere:

...
And this is from 1983 - nothing ever changes :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


No. And it's not "favourably colour Polish history a little", what these ppl do, it's outright denial and lying of some events that actually took place and are documented. And they deny it because it doesn't fit in their perspective concept of a glorious Poland. And that is just as bad if you want to talk in terms of good and bad. When faced with facts they just say that it's all lies, preferrably Communist lies as the Communist are the favourit clothing hanger for all faults. Ppl need a scapegoat - nothing really changes. But I think it's just part of the coming of age of Poland. In time it will learn to accept her history in full with the good things AND the bad things. Give it one or two generations. But your remarks show that you're not ready yourself - check the wording again and you will know. And besides, history is not meant for propaganda, history is the science of what happened.

Edit: and when ppl come to terms with the past, perhaps that story that the Nazis were left-wing will disappear, although the right-wing will keep on claiming that to shift blame. But it's the biggest nonsense I've heard in years. And I come here two and a half years, so that says sth :)


If ppl don't learn from it, it's pretty useless.


No, as long as there's no time machines, we will never know. And time travel, alas, is impssbl. It helps to think in time/space though.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]

Ok, well, I will throw it in the bin then - It starts to get cold anyway.

>^..^<

M-G (takes a menthol pastille to calm his stomach down)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]

Do you want it as TM obviously doesn't want it?

>^..^<

M-G (next time I will be offering sth for free)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]

No, it's actually grease from out of the motor of a car...OF COURSE IT'S REAL BUTTER! Otherwise I would've said it was margarine. Do you want it or not, and ask me one more question and I'll just dump it in the bin, ok?

>^..^<

M-G (darn women!)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]

Darn you bunch of old women! You get it for free! And still nagging?

It's deep-fried haddock on a bun. No mayo, no onions, just fish and a little butter on the bun. I'm not gonna eat it as my stomach is acting up weirdly at the moment.

>^..^<

M-G (so, who wants it?)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Pointing out failures or periods of failure is by no means downplaying achievements. It's just part of the bigger picture. And you NEED to know the bigger picture, else you get stranded in a kind of particularism which bring about a skewed world view and particularily a crooked view on one's own history. Unfortunately a lot of the ppl on here have fallen victim of this particularism as it shows.

But that wasn't what my post with Kielce as example was all about. But I am sure you know what it was about. You're smart enough to understand what I was trying to say there.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]

Anyone for a fish-sandwich?

>^..^<

M-G (bought one but doesn't feel right enough to eat it - I didn't touch it, it's still in the package!)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]


And what makes you such a specialist, eh?

Go chasing rabbits :)

>^..^<

M-G (and smoking catapillars for that matter...my my my what was Grace beautiful back then)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]

I think you should go ask Alice; I think she knows about the logic and the portion.

>^..^<

M-G (woah, else go ask Grace)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]

That can't be, my natural dad is dead. I killed him myself. Spent 12 years in prison for that. Tsk!

>^..^<

M-G (imposter! grmbl! didn't kill my dad for nothing, eh!)

Off-Topic / PF - The Omnibus Edition [1502]


So you are my neighbour too? And my neighbour's dog?

>^..^<

M-G (if true and you are in fact my neighbour's dog; does it still hurt?)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Indeed. However, this one does gloriously fail to see the point I was making. This wasn't about Poles vs Jews, this was about history writing and the keying of milestones within historic timelines and their direct aftermath as well as its repercussions in the long run. Kielce is the perfect example to demonstrate this - yet this bigot comes along and turns it into one of his infamous anti Jewish rants. I've been patient long enough with this nonsense. Comes a time that you have to say it's been enough.

>^..^<

M-G (sorry Seanus)

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [147]

I learned British English in school, but speak American English - a lot of native English speaking friends of mine all say that I speak with an American accent. I prefer it anyway because it's easier English and it just sounds nicer with cooler expressions. Proper British English has always a bit of "stiffness" over it. And Scottish English I at times truly have trouble understanding :) Welsh and Australian English sound a bit the same to me, albeit that the Australian accent sometimes tends to sound like the accent in (London-) Derry in Northern Ireland, which is about the most hideous English accent I have heard so far. Oirish English is distinctly different from British English, even when you have a perfect English speaking Irishman.

I especially like the accent they have in the Southern States of the US. "Y'all come back now ye hear?"

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Will you pls get the fcuk out of here? Pls fcuk off. You already made it clear that you don't like Jews many times before and fail miserably to see the point. So now just fcuk off.


No. He should just get the fcuk out of here. I have never seen a ppl who manage to blame deeds they performed themselves on the victims or on sb else instead of taking responsibility for it themselves. Perhaps the word "responsible" isn't in the Polish dictionary, let alone "historical responsibility? Well on the other hand, it's not collectively, I wouldn't want to say that, but it just seems that all those bigots who do are united on PF.

>^..^<

M-G (losing definitive patience with this Polish nonsense)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


The difference between this and the Kielce pogrom was that the Kielce pogrom took place AFTER WW2. And that's the significance of this incident. Repeat, it took place hardly A YEAR AFTER THE HOLOCAUST. Doesn't that ring a bell by now? What do you think the average European would've thought about that? That guy doesn't think: "hey, it's probably the Soviets because they are in charge!" NO! He didn't think like that. He only read that again there were Jews murdered for whatever reason, right after the biggest mass murder ever on that very same ppl.

I really don't know how I should get that significance through to you, but put it in simple logic: this is what the average newspaper reader read back then: 4th of July 1946, Jews murdered in Poland. 14 months after the Holocaust ended. And keep in mind that in 1946 Europeans were still grateful to the Soviet Union for their tremendous war effort. Then you read news like this. What you think the average newspaper reader will first think? I will answer that: it happened in Poland, so Poles did it. Damn them! That's what the average reader in 1946 thought when he read about the incident. He didn't think of the complex new situation that was going on in Poland at the time, he just thought: darn, those Poles do hate Jews. And if this isn't clear enough as to why the Kielce incident was so important in the image forming of the European about Poles as being anti semite, then I give up. I cannot make it much clearer.

I will gather some material for you. Give me some time as I'm busy as it is.


Perhaps; but they were still Poles.


I didn't describe the events as such, I described the perpetrators. And like I said it were Poles that committed them. And the question whether or not this incident was used by the Soviets in order to give Poland a bad name abroad, is not really relevant in this respect. That came, if it happened, later on, not at the moment the actual events ocurred.

I will say it again, no matter how you turn it, it were Poles that committed this crime. Be this Poles more or less hired by Soviets, or members of the local dance club, that really doesn't matter. What matters is who the ppl abroad saw as the perpetrators and to them it was the Poles. And they were right back then. Political side effects are not yet relevant in order to put this fact firm. These were afterwards.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

UK, Ireland / Why English do not like Polish? [417]

Of course I know it's not all the British, but unfortunately those with the beerbellies, the purple bald heads and their slutty gf's are the types you usually notice first as they don't seem to manage to behave themselves and are loud. The ones enjoying culture and being polite and all, you don't notice them that quickly as they, you've guessed it, don't make much racket and don't bother bypassers with the allmighty "are you Bri-ish?" or the even more legendary "fancy a shag?"

>^..^<

M-G (they seem to like Amsterdam though)

UK, Ireland / Why English do not like Polish? [417]


I really don't understand what it is with this pierogi. I ate them a few times and I really didn't think they were special. No offence meant. To me they are just like bigger Ravioli without the tomato sauce. I like Gowabki (?) - those rolled cabbage leaves with some stuff in it much better than pierogi. And I like Zurek a lot :)

I mean, I liked pierogi, but I really didn't think they were special. Maybe if they would add some tomato sauce to the pierogi, it would improve a bit, but that's just my opinion.

But on topic: you shouldn't hate anybody. Because if you hate ppl it eventually will always come back to you. Period. But it's a bit like with Brits abroad: they even manage to hate the native ppl of the country they're visiting :) Experienced that a few times when I lived in Amsterdam.

>^..^<

M-G (could be woken up for a decent bowl of Zurek any time)

Real Estate / TRESPASSING ON MY LAND IN POLAND....what can i do legally...? [119]



>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poland is great Mother of all Slavs from Baltic to Balkan [177]

Don't know, but it was only 01:30 AM so the information was very reliable.

:)

>^..^<

M-G (woah, everything comes from Serbia nowadays)

History / Poland is great Mother of all Slavs from Baltic to Balkan [177]

Some well-informed Poles I talked to in a pub last weekend informed me that Dracula has in fact also Serbian roots. Are there still many vampires in Serbia?

>^..^<

M-G (if anybody can enlighten us on this, it's my dear friend Crow)

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4501]


Where in MN? Is it close to the Twin Cities, Mankato, Saint Cloud or what city? I'm just curious as I have been in Minnesota loads of times - my bro lives there.

>^..^<

M-G (didn't see many Polish surnames there, though; much more Scandinavian and German)

History / Norman Davies - the Brit who loves Poland and becomes one of Us [250]


Don't ask that question again - the door is too open with this one :) Instead, write isn't it so? This leaves the door hardly open and avoids quirky answers.

Just a tip :)

>^..^<

M-G (always glad to help ZY)

History / Norman Davies - the Brit who loves Poland and becomes one of Us [250]


Also the Jews played a big part in it and yeah, you've reminded me a few times already, so it's my place and time here to remind you that NL took most Belgian refugees in WW1 (over a million) and as a thank you after that war it got slapped in the face by weird claims by the Belgians for Dutch territory.

But I won't go down that road either :)

I like the Flemish as they are very much alike the ppl from the area where I come from in NL. And even though you had perhaps bad experiences with some Dutch, not all Dutch ppl are the same - some of us do know how to behave when visiting your nice little country :)

Anyway - Low Lands is Low Lands :)


Yes - I did read Neighbours. Gross is indeed a bit over the top at times, but he gives a fair overview of things and he is a brave man as well, imo.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]


Ok, I will address one point: first of all, this was an example. Secondly, no it's not a superficial and/or general view as you take two opposites and compare them to each other. You will find that even the most opposite views have certain points which are the same. Reading in just one corner of events leaves one with a very one-sided view on things. And that's not the purpose of history. Some amateur historian on this forum said that history teaches ppl. It does, but only when you're a history teacher :) For the rest it's a quest to find an as accurate as pssbl view on things and in reality this comes down to the most neutral view. And a neutral view in turn you can only get when you read material from both sides. That is what the purpose of history is.

It's like watching a football match: you have fans from club A and fans from club B and there's a group of ppl who are neither. The ones who are neither fan of A nor B have the best view on the match as they are not clouded in their opinion by their love for a particular club.

You could go and read all concerning the matter, but then you spend way too much time on one particular event. Furthermore, you will have to do that with every event and by the time you get a clear point of view on all the matters, you're way past your retirement age. I read as much as I can from both sides and try to come with a most clear view on things. Sometimes this is favourable and sometimes it's not. It's as simple as that.

Previously mentioned Kielce incident, for example, was committed by Poles. Be they Communists, Catholics, Anarchists or Hopsasasa Polka Dancers, it doesn't matter. It weren't Russians or Germans who did it. It were Poles. And the circumstances under which things took place are open to debate, but one fact remains undisputed in all circles and that is that it were Poles who committed it. I read many sources dealing with the issue, yes, Polish sources as well as far as they were translated. But no matter how coloured the descriptions were, nobody, not the Polish historians, not the other historians claims it were (Communist) Russians who did it. They all say it was Poles who did this. And a Communist Pole is still a Pole, right?

Given this, what you think the reaction was in the rest of Europe and the world, who just had come to the discovery of the horrors that happened during the Holocaust? What you think their reaction would be when they heard that an angry mob in some godforgotten place in the middle of nowhere does just exactly the same? What would you do if you heard about it and you were living in some other country, just learning about the Holocaust? You probably would get angry. See? Everybody always wonders as to why other ppl look upon the Poles as being anti semite; well I think this Kielce incident played a huge part in it, hammering into the psyche of post-war Europe.

Hope it's clear now. Some work lies waiting for you. Good luck. I'm sure you can do it. You're a good kid and I don't hate you at all (I don't hate anybody for that matter), albeit a bit flamboyant most of the time. I think you will get better if you just put in some work and try to read some other sources. If you want me to, I can give you tips for good material, just ask.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Norman Davies - the Brit who loves Poland and becomes one of Us [250]


Oh for sure there are better historians than Norman Davies. I don't know what he was thinking (money perhaps?) when embarked on this populistic-historical path. But that doesn't matter now since he went down that road. I ordered last night two books by Adam Zamoyski "Poland" and "Warsaw 1920" :) Both got good reviews and my book-budget allowed me their purchase. Now I just have to wait for them to be delivered.

Let's call Norman Davies a "home-writer". Sobieski, you as Flemish (yes I've said it again:) ), surely remember this American Historian who wrote about the Dutch (and Flemish, after all, the Low Countries) in the same manner that Norman Davies writes about Polish history? His name is Simon Schama, rings a bell? But instead of adoring him like the Poles adore Norman Davies, nearly all Dutch and Flemish historians just laughed at Schama for his obvious inaccuracies and glorification of the Low Countries. They knew it wasn't as glorious as Schama wrote. You remember that?

>^..^<

M-G (wonders)

History / Norman Davies - the Brit who loves Poland and becomes one of Us [250]


Actually, yes :) Britain's force at the time wasn't by far strong enough to withold the German troops entering Poland. The only thing that would've happened is that the battle for Poland would take longer. And given the fact that the SU attacked Poland 2 weeks later, it would not have made any difference at all if the British were to send a corps. And: how could they send troops? The waterways to Poland were all firmly guarded by the German navy and pass Germany for a substantial part. If they would send troops over water, I doubt if they would ever make it to any of the Polish harbours.

But you were right in one sense and that was indeed that Poland was the first to fight. Memel, earlier in 1939 was the last bit of territory Germany would get without violence.


True, but diplomacy was still in its infancy after the long 19th century and one can regard failures like this as "child diseases". Britain kept at least part of her agreement with Poland: she declared war on Germany. Like France did. And the "phoney war" phase as ZY mentioned was mainly due to Hitlers attempts to seduce Britain back into peace with Germany as he didn't want to go to war with GB - he considered them a fellow Germanic ppl.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / Newsweek's The World's Best Countries (Poland ranked 29) [128]


...And NL before Germany...Grin.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)