History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


Uh.... I'm pretty sure Nigeria IS in Africa. Where do you think it is?


How does saying eastern europe make it a different continent?? Does saying the "the Southern US" make states like Louisiana, Georgia, the Carolinas, etc a "different continent?" Does saying "the Southwest" make Texas, California, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, etc a "different continent?"

I understand very well that all slavic countries are not just one big blob of slavic-ness. What I am having trouble understanding is why you're conflating "not whitewashing the uniqueness out of yourself" with "every slavic country is exactly the same!" - unless you're purposefully trying to be obtuse. But to address your claim that I said all of EE is slavic, if you carefully reread what I wrote, you'll see that I said slavic culture is a LARGE part of EE, not ALL of it. Of course there are other cultures in EE that aren't slavic. And of course the different slavic countries vary widely, but they are still slavic. Just like Spain, Italy, Portugal, and France are all romance languages/cultures, but vary quite widely amongst themselves.

I also find it deeply offensive for you to refer to EE as "Eastern European bullsh1t." You act as if "eastern" is code for "crap" and "western" is code for "gold." "eastern" and "western" are merely words, and completely neutral ones at that. They mean what we want them to mean, and meanings generally change over time. So, while I appreciate the fact that you grew up in a time where eastern european had negative connotations, the fact is that those connotations were given by people living in a particular socio-economic-cultural-political reality that no longer exists today. Today, the connotations to "eastern european" are somewhat different, and they are ever-changing.

I find it sad that while I was open to the fact that others may legitimately feel that calling Poland an EE country is negative, you weren't able to see my perspective and instead simply continued to steamroll your opinions and parrot them over and over, as if hoping that if you said it long and loud enough, it would be true and you'd finally shut up all those who do not share your opinion. That's not a conversation or a discussion. That's one person trying to shut the other person up and shove his/her opinions down their throat.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and some very strong emotions regarding Poland being EE or Slavic. I wish you well. But more than that, I wish Poland well, because it saddens me greatly to know that there are so many people in Poland who are desperately trying to turn Poland into a second-rate version of some generic "western european" country, instead being proud of their heritage and their past and building a strong, unique Poland.

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]


Wow. You really had to go there, huh? Absolutely disgusting. If that's what you think of Eastern European women, then that says far more about you, your attitudes, and the filth you've allowed into your life than it does about people who consider Poland to be a part of Eastern Europe.

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


If everyone's special, no one's special. No sure why this is something be proud of or to bring up, considering:


which effectively turned the country into a power struggle between the royal/noble families instead of looking out for its common good.

Also, someone earlier in this thread proudly proclaimed Krakow to be "the Paris of Poland!"

LOL what? Why can't Krakow just be flippin Krakow? Why does it have to be compared as a second rate version of some other (incidentally, Western) city? Why can't Krakow, a city with a rich and unique history and culture spanning 17 centuries, be admired and respected for itself, instead of being lumped together with some other, COMPLETELY different city? I can assure you that someone who wants to visit Paris for a week will NOT go to Krakow instead and be like "meh. close enough." and vice versa. That's honestly so offensive to relegate Krakow to "Polish Paris," as if being "Krakow, Poland" isn't good enough.

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


Thank you! It's so infuriating to go to Poland and around every corner you hear people saying "Oh, so-and-so actress is like the POLISH Marilyn Monroe!" "So-and-so singer is the POLISH Britney Spears!" "So-and-so city is the POLISH Paris!" "So-and-so other city is the POLISH Berlin!" "So-and-so museum is the POLISH Louvre!!!" "So-and-so politician is the POLISH Kennedy!" "So-and-so writer is the POLISH Arthur Miller!" "So-and-so film director is the POLISH Francis Coppola!" "So-and-so park is the POLISH Central Park!" "So-and-so bridge is the POLISH London Bridge!" "So-and-so book is the POLISH Harry Potter!"

For the love of God, have some SELF RESPECT, would you?!? It's really quite embarrassing.


I completely agree with you. Of course, you can clearly see that mentality show itself with all those "X is the Polish Y!" comments. When you have people feeling pride that Krakow is the "Polish Paris," rather than feeling pride that Krakow IS Polish and has a rich culture and history (and also has one of the oldest universities in Europe), that's when you know you've really hit the bottom of the barrel. That's when you know that these people value cheap slogans, the latest Apple gadget, and the latest overpriced fashions made in a sweatshop in Taiwan or China or wherever is cheapest these days over their own roots, culture, history, people, and most significantly: self respect. Those are the kinds of people who will sell you and the country out faster than you can blink, all so they can call themselves "western" and not have anyone contradict them.

It's sad, disgusting, and deeply, deeply pathetic.

No one ever got respect for being a wannabe.

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


Well, yes, obviously it's very much expected... does that mean people shouldn't endeavor to change, especially if their circumstance have? Poland isn't communist anymore.

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]

Wulkan, first of all, let's take a deep breath and calm down. We're all mature adults here. No one is trying to hurt anyone else.

Second, I'm glad you haven't come in contact with this phenomenon. Seeing as you live in England, and not knowing how often you visit Poland, I can surmise that you perhaps may not have had much experience with this.

Unfortunately, I have come in contact with this in Poland, multiple times, and over a very great number of years. In fact, I had experienced it on this very thread!


I am curious as to how saying that "Krakow... is quickly becoming the Paris of Poland" gives someone a "better image of it"? Have you seen Paris and Krakow lately? Because I have. And they are literally NOTHING alike. I mean, yeah, they're both old, they're both in Europe, they both have old buildings and paved streets, they both have a lot of Europeans living in them, and a both have a lot of tourists... but beyond the basics of a historical city, they're quite different.

Third, I'm not saying that anyone is saying that Poland is western Europe. Saying Poland is a part of western Europe and constantly comparing Polish things to their western European or American counterparts is not the same thing, and I am not saying that it is. I am merely pointing out the fact that the comparing tends to happen a lot (at, what I would consider, pathological levels; but, I digress). Clearly, you and I disagree on the motivation behind this, but at least we agree that this DOES happen sometimes. See! We CAN agree on something! ;)

Finally, please know that I'm truly not trying to hurt or insult you. I'm only trying to express my viewpoint, engage in civilized discussion, and clarify my views - as you seem to be missing my point, and instead seem intent on making it abundantly clear that Poland is central Europe. Now, as you may have noticed, this discussion is entitled "Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European?" So if you have beef with the idea that someone may not consider Poland to be central European, I suggest you take it up with the original poster. God bless!

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]

Wulkan, I'm not trying to twist it against you or anything like that. I simply don't quite agree with your opinion. And that's fine. We don't have agree on everything.

What I took offense at was the implication that "Eastern European" is somehow a derogative term. I truly do not see it that way. For me, there is Europe. And then, if one insists on regimenting Europe, there is Western Europe and Eastern Europe. And, to me and in my experience and in my environment, Poland was always Eastern Europe - because of the geography and because it shared a similar Slavic culture and language with many (not all) countries in this eastern part of Europe.

I understand that you were always taught that Poland is Central Europe. And I accept that. To me, personally, the distinction of Central Europe seems a little redundant, but that's just my opinion. In my opinion, "Central Europe" sounds more bland than "Eastern Europe" or "Western Europe." But, that's just my opinion. I associate "Eastern Europe" with a certain sense of romanticism that I don't associate with Western Europe (and definitely not Central Europe) - Pan Taduesz, Potop, Ogniem i Mieczem, etc. The birch trees and grassy plains, forests, and twisting rivers. The wild landscapes, untamed by humans, save for the occasional country estate. In Germany, the landscape is very beautiful but it feels like every inch has been tended to, improved upon, and organized by humans. But in Poland, and especially the further east you go, the landscape isn't so perfectly manicured. There's an element of freedom. One isn't better or worse than the other; they're just different. The Slavic soul IS different from the Anglo-Saxon and the Romance souls. Not better or worse. Just different. Maybe, having grown up in Texas, where we are fiercely independent and highly value our freedom, natural landscapes, and wide open spaces, I am drawn to that. Perhaps that's why I feel so strongly about not calling Eastern Europe "bad."

Paulina, all of my examples have been examples that I have personally heard or read. And if you say that it's used as a point of reference - ALL of the times I've experienced this comparison has been IN Poland BY Poles to other Poles. I've heard it in real life, on the radio, on the TV, and read it in Polish magazines and newspapers that are written for a Polish audience. Furthermore, telling some foreigner that Krakow is like Paris, except Polish, isn't really accurate, is it? I've also actually heard other Americans comment on this tendency to compare, as well. Maybe it's so common that people don't even notice it. But coming from another country, where NO ONE compares themselves to another country and every Joe Schmo is proud of his roots - however impressive or unimpressive they may be - it's really quite noticeable. If it happened once or twice, it would be normal. But because I see it ALL THE TIME when I'm in Poland (and even when I'm not), it starts to take on pathological dimensions. But you know, do what you will.

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


Paulina, respectfully, in this situation, I actually understand JollyRomek's point, and - to me - it appears that you are not understanding his point, and are actually perpetuating the attitude that results in Poles comparing themselves to *The West*. Said with love. I'm not trying to insult you, truly. :)

In your response to me, you initially said that these comparisons are made in order to create a point of reference. Then, you said these comparisons are only made in Poland among Poles, and you further reiterated this latter assertion in your conversation with JollyRomek.

If these comparisons are made only in Poland among Poles, then what possible need is there for a "point of reference"?

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


I understand that. That's my point exactly! There is a difference in competition and it being a wannabe. Several years ago, in Warsaw, in a POLISH newspaper, I read an article about some museum that they were planning on building in Warsaw. One of the people involved in this museum was quoted as saying that it would be "like the Polish Louvre!" Now, if he had said something like "It will be bigger than the Louvre and hold twice as much art!" I would have been like:



. Why? Because that's a healthy sense of competition and it denotes the attitude: "I am capable and good enough to build something that improves upon something else that has already been built" instead of..."Oh, well, maybe if I build an imitation of something that already exists, I'll be good enough."

Over history, different kings and rulers and nations have tried to compete with each other and outdo each other and to prove how wonderful they were through their achievements. And these are the things that are remembered and admired. But if even if you DO have something that is admirable, but you act like it's crap, or that it's almost as a good as something else, NO ONE WILL ADMIRE IT. You have to believe in yourself and respect yourself before others believe in you or respect you. The United States today is (still) the most powerful country and arguably the wealthiest country in the world. The US has made GREAT achievements. Today, it is reviled and loved/admired for its greatness. But it didn't start out that way! It started out with a handful of unhappy immigrants from Europe. Less than 300 years ago, it was still an unsophisticated colony of Britain, that geographically spanned only the eastern coast of North America! Think about that. 300 years ago, Poland was much bigger than it is now and was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, with centuries of history under her belt. How did those colonists, who walked along muddy streets and lived mostly in wooden houses, while most of Europe (including Poland) studied in centuries-old stone universities, come to be the most powerful nation on earth? It certainly was NOT because they "looked up" to and compared themselves to anyone else. If anything, the US built things to compete with other nations. "Manifest Destiny" was ideal for a long time under which American society operated. It meant that they believed they were meant to do great things and they deserved great things. And then they went out and did them. Now, whether or not this "Manifest Destiny" was ethical is another question. A lot of Native American tribes suffered greatly. However, my point is that the US did not get to where it is today from the starved and measles-ridden pilgrims on the Mayflower by kow-towing to everyone else and hoping someone would think they're cool enough.

I'm not saying Poland should just give the West the finger, or anything like that. I'm just saying chill out with the West-worship, and start taking pride in some of Poland's achievements. You MUST take pride in your own work in order to be successful at anything. This is true for individuals, and for societies. Poland should just focus on being the best it can be rather than looking at its neighbor and trying to measure up, is all I'm saying! ;)


Someone earlier in this thread wrote this:


That is NOT how the comparisons I am referring to are made. We're straying from the original intent here. :) And my point remains: if Krakow is considered an artistic city in Poland, why the need to compare it to some other artistic city? After all, if it is already known, in Poland, as an artistic city... it already has that definition. So comparing it to Paris in order to illustrate how artistic it is, when it's already considered to be artistic, is redundant.


Yes, but I didn't say "Texas is like the American Poland!" Instead, I said that both places have similar characteristics that I like. The would more like saying "Krakow has a lot of art. You can see artists selling their creations on the street. Paris is like that too. I think that's why I like both cities."


I think JollyRomek's point was that if it's Poles in Poland comparing their cities to foreign cities, then it can't very well be a "point of reference" because these comparisons are made among Poles, rather than to foreigners. Which is my point, as well. And because I AM Polish, it actually bothers me because it sounds like something isn't good enough unless it's the Polish version of some "Western" counterpart.

I mean, I do not live in Poland, so I maybe I don't have a right to try to get Poles to stop comparing themselves to "The West," if it makes them feel better. But this is just how it appears to me, as an "outsider" in Poland. And this is just my emotional reaction, as a person of Polish blood who feels a connection to and pride for Poland.


Yes...


First, I am not talking like "Slavic Europe" is some sort of separate continent. I never even remotely implied it. Of course there are nice landscapes everywhere! But that does not negate the fact that different regions of the world have different landscapes that I, personally, am more drawn to some than to others. This isn't right or wrong; it's simply my preference. As I said, I "associate" Poland and Eastern Europe with this landscape, along with several other things. I was speaking of my personal feelings I had regarding a particular term. Just like you may "associate" a certain love song with your first kiss, or associate a certain color with a certain emotion. Let's not get pedantic. I'm not trying to insult you!


Yes, of course. Poland always has and is a part of Europe. And I think more and more these days with globalization the ideas of western and eastern europe are falling the wayside. It's just Europe. BUT if one is going to make those distinctions, then one can start splitting hairs. The US is the US, even though Georgia is "The South" and Pennsylvania is "The North."

Food / What Polish foods and brands do you miss when you go to other countries? [216]

the chocolate with the orange gel... don't know the specific name. It seems like the brand could Wedel. There are things called Ptiase Mleczka ("Bird's Milk"), but that's more like a marshmallowy filling covered in chocolate. They also make cookies that are similar to lady fingers with a fruit-flavored gel and covered in chocolate called Delicje.

The gingerbread with fruit filling and chocolate is called piernicki (plural diminutive of piernik, which basically means gingerbread). Don't know about the biscuits.

Kabanosy are thin smoked/jerk sausages.

Polish spices... dill? Koperek in Polish.

Genealogy / Do I look Polish? (my picture) [375]


Yeah you could pass for Polish. You do seem to have that blonde hair/blue eyes Slavic look.