History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

Yep, they are, but whom is feared more?

M-G

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

Hm, make that Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands - the biggest contributors of the EU anyway. But I was just wondering as I hear it said so many times...The Dutch don't really like the Germans, although it's getting better as time passes by. Actually it's funny: we had more wars with the British than with any country else, got more times occupied by the French and we still dislike the Germans above those two ppl. It's just a matter of time as I feel that ressentiments will die with the ppl who actually lived in the area of the atrocities.

M-G (at least, that's my theory)

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

So I take it the Germans are not really popular :)

M-G (we don't like 'em much either)

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

Good to see that a simple question can raise a pretty decent discussion, as far as I've read the comments...
How about the Jews? How is the general treatment of the Jews in Poland?

M-G (is half Jewish)

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Hm, even I, being half Jewish (maternal sided, so I guess according to religious laws I am full blown Jew, but I am not religious as such, therefore I regard myself as half Jew), was ripped off by a Jewish landlord once, all the while saying that I should feel a brotherly love or something. Yeah, all good and so on, but this brotherly love should not cost me twice the normal price, if you know what I mean...

M-G

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


I guess anywhere outside his wallet...But you know, that's just one person; not all of the Jewish ppl are like that - I for one have never ripped anyone off, wouldn't even know how to do that :)

M-G

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


I guess anywhere outside his wallet...But you know, that's just one person; not all of the Jewish ppl are like that - I for one have never ripped anyone off, wouldn't even know how to do that :)

M-G

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


I guess anywhere outside his wallet...But you know, that's just one person; not all of the Jewish ppl are like that - I for one have never ripped anyone off, wouldn't even know how to do that :)

M-G

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Explain - they are just meant as initials, no further meaning behind them. I've always signed my posts for a decade now. Hell, I even sign my SMS'es and Emails and so on.

Santa Claus

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Well, at least I don't use foul language, do I now, Homo Wroclawensiae...
And indeed, I am strange, but always entertaining :)
But to be serious - I really don't see what's so annoying about signing my posts...I've always done so in any written communications I've performed...Where I come from, it's considered to be polite, but apparently this etiquette is not honoured everywhere. But if it's really so annoying, I will stop doing it.

Anyway, this minor intermezzo aside, I would like to add to the discussion of the unlimited access of Jews to capital as such: this is not true; there are many very poor Jews who live in the same miserable conditions as their Polish or any counterparts. Actually, the sole reason why Jews are dealing with money and science and so on is that back in the good old days they were ONLY allowed to deal with money as our good friend Christianity did not allow the Jews to enter guilds, did not allow them to pick up any trade, dealing with non-Jews and so on. As the Church forbade the Christians to deal with money as being a dispisable trade, this was left to the Jews, as in the eyes of the Church they were disgusting and disgusting ppl should keep themselves busy with disgusting trades. Science was also one of the few fields Jews were allowed to do.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

Go here: catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigmiaow.pl

They are called kitlers and it's hilarious :) Jeses, what sensitive ppl are we dealing with...

FYI Bubba: about 75 per cent of my family was murdered during the Holocaust. But that was over 60 years ago and I have forgiven the Germans as the current generation has not done me any harm and you just can't blame ppl for what their grandparents did, can ye now?

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

There's a fourth one actually: that's the one you are afraid of :)

(I wonder, has a grown up who calls himself 'Boy' and usually does not add much to a conversation automatically disqualified himself as being a valid discussion-partner?)

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Forgiving is something completely different than forgetting. If you want a better world, one should be able to forgive without forgetting what happened. About hatred towards Jews, I found the hatred in Russia towards Jews much deeper than in Germany, where in my experience only the odd weirdo is still saying he hates the Jews. I was raised near the German border and was in Germany many times. In Russia it's basically mixed with this blame-factor: "we have it bad and it's all your fault". But they do (did) this not only to the Jews, but to any Westerner. I remember that I was in St Petersburg some while ago and some guy just came up to me and said that I had to give him money as I was from the West and therefore I owed him. He got very agressive when I didn't give him any. This kind of crap you got a lot of times back then. I don't know if it's still like that, haven't been there in years, but this picture is still very vivid in my mind.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

Shelley, my temptress :)

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

One will always have ignorance. In a way this is normal: when ppl see other ppl that do not look like them, have other habits than they have, talk a language that they cannot understand, then this becomes strange, more strange and ultimately scary and threatening. If everybody everywhere in the World would just take the time and look a little bit further than what they actually see or want to see, then I think we can get finally rid of this primitive hatred. You don't have to like 'em, as long as you don't hate them if they have done nothing to harm you. In my opinion hating things you don't understand is a bit like hating yourself and when you really, truly and deeply hate some ppl just because they differ from you it just diminishes yourself as a human being so much...

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

Wasn't the 80's the time they went bashing on everything and everyone that was different in Britain?

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Thank God, I don't look like a Jew :) I don't have a big nose, I am as pale as any other person in Ireland and I don't like koosjer food :)

WB:

Who's to blame for that? The Polish workers who work hard and get underpaid? Or the employers who creepily take advantage of this?

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Nothing - I was only kidding and making fun of the way some ppl think.

Actually, that is not quite true: in Britain there have been some pogroms against Jews, the most notorious one being in York, somewhere in the 11th or 12th century. The usual: lots of ppl owed a lot of money to the Jews and they did not want to pay them back or could not. So, what is easier in a case like that than just to kill them? You get rid of your debts in an instance...

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]

My mother does so too and I am proud of her...It was just a sarcastic remark, because there are ppl out there that actually think like that, how discusting this may be.

Granted, the labour market is stretched and getting overstretched more and more...That's a general problem everywhere in Western Europe. The influx of new workers from Eastern Europe willing to work for less does not help the situation...Ah but anyway, the World is going to end in 2012, so we only have to endure it for 4 more years and then it's all over :)

Btw: if your mother looks typically Jewish, then you must look like me :))

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


As far as I can see it, Poland has the bad luck that it is crammed in between two bigger countries that both have a view on Poland that is generally not friendly. And what's worse, these two countries didn't like each other. So when the neighbour to your left is much bigger and stronger than you are, hates the neighbour to your right, which is also much bigger and stronger than you are, chances are pretty big that every fight between them will be fought in your garden. Therefore I always have felt sorry for the Poles as they always seem to get caught up in the middle of something which has basically nothing to do with them. Just being there at wrong place at the wrong time. The Germans went even further and put the Polish nation to a burden with which they have to live forever, and build the most disgusting invention of mankind on Polish soil.

NB: amongst historians in Holland there was this joke, pointing at Poland's move to the West as a result of all the wars: one more war over there and Poland will be the Netherlands new Eastern neighbour. But this just as a side-remark.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


If they are, why then did the Germans right after the war admitted they never encountered so much general hatred towards them in any occupied country as they did in Holland? Why were there relatively so many Dutch deaths during the occupation?

The first question I can answer myself: it's because WW2 was the first war that struck Holland in over 100 years. Nobody knew what war was like and just like Poland, we have this vast neighbour that is so much bigger and stronger than us and when this big bad neighbour decided to do this little peaceful country harm, this felt like a rape of the well maintained (and somewhat hypocritical) Dutch innocense. Furthermore, we had the bad luck that the Nazi's considered the Dutch as brothers, while in fact we may descent from the same tribe, we are a complete different ppl. To be viewed upon as a likewise ppl or even identified with Nazi-Germany disgusted the majority of the Dutch ppl and fueled the hatred even further. Granted, there was a Nazist movement in Holland, but they were actually very much on the decline when Germany invaded Holland in 1940. And besides this: before WW2 nearly every country had a Nazist movement.

The second question I could also answer, but I leave that up to you, WB.

NB: the Dutch capitulated after 4 days and after the Germans had bombarded Rotterdam out of irritation that resistance was tougher than expected.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Basically Britain was just lucky. Thanks to some crucial tactical mistakes Hitler made in the spring of 1940, Britain escaped occupation by Germany. Had the pushed right through to Duinkerken, they had captured the vast majority of the British army waiting to be shipped back to Britain. If they then would sail across the Channel, they would have seized Britain in a few weeks, that's how weak the British army was in those days. The battle for Britain was another crucial mistake Hitler made.

Osiol: That's just what I'm trying to say: nobody's perfect and we should take it person per person, not an entire ppl.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Let me guess: that's why the British did nothing to help Poland in it's struggle agains Nazi-Germany in 1939? Hm, my best bet is that the British couldn't care less what happened to Poland and the Poles: the declaration of war was more to prevent the loss of face they would have in the world (and more important in America), would they allow Hitler to do what he wanted for the fourth time in a row.

But then again; nobody of the Western Political leaders (except Wilson maybe) cared what happened to the Eastern European countries. Those, in their view, were the backwaters of Europe, nothing important there, no need to worry about them...This attitude has always made me kind of angry.

Second addition: also, to the British the idea that Germany would be the predominant power in Europe and not Britain, counted more than anything else. Even if they had to sacrifice little countries like Czechoslowakia or Austria.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Exactly, what did Britain do in September 1939, except declaring war? Did they send massive amounts of troops? Did they attack Germany? No. Until April 1940, they sat and watched and did nothing.

Kitlers are fun, aren't they? :)

WB: your house must be crammed with those awards...

Have a look at the map and see who were Germany and her allies and see who was fighting them, colour them respectively red and green: you will see that nearly the entire map is green. There was no possible way that Germany could have won the war with America alone involved. It is actually a miracle that they kept up the fight for nearly 6 years.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


No. America saved the world and after the war they saved Western Europe through the Marshall Plan. The only countries that did not receive Marshall help were the neutral countries in Western Europe and with the exception of Switzerland and Sweden, they all did so much worse than the countries that did receive the help. Look at Ireland.

Without America's help, Britain and the rest of Western Europe would have sunk into the abyss again and there would be a 3rd World War somewhere in the 60's. It was the Marshall Plan and the fact that America decided to come out of the splendid isolation that has saved the old continent, the old continent that had codemned them so many times before that.

Let's face it, Western Europe owes it's entire existence nowadays to the Americans.
Eastern Europe before the Iron Curtain fell was actually the product of a discussion of Churchill and Stalin and a drawing on the back of a coaster: "yo, Joe, you want Hungary? Well, we want Greece, so if we divide it like this...Wait, I will draw it for you. Do you have any paper on you? No? Well, wait, I'll just take this coaster here...Waiter! Can you bring us another beer?"

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


But they used their profits to help Western Europe. Britain did not loose it's vast, stolen, empire until after the war when the respective ppls started to realise that they did not need the British and that they could rule themselves. Besides that, the biggest part of what Britain owed to the US was never paid. Britain was virtually bankrupt, even before the war already.

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Didn't know WW2 took place in the 18th century...

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


We invented the Slave-Trade, don't forget that!
But Apartheid (the only Dutch word used worldwide in its original Dutch form) was solely an invention of the South African government. South Africa was stolen from the Dutch by the British some 300 years before that, so following your line of thinking, one could also say that Apartheid is British in origin.

Indeed we are a small country that lies for nearly half it's size below sea-level. With the exception of the time that it was joined together with Belgium (which is the original size of the Netherlands - Belgium is a Low Country as well) it has never been bigger; all the more reason to admire the vast line of achievements we made worldwide :)

History / Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians? [869]


Actually the biggest group to come into America from Europe are not the Irish, but the Germans. There's also an issue there: in 1914 it was due to this huge group of German immigrants not by all means sure that the US, should it participate in WW1, would choose the British side. After all, Britain had bugged the US for over a century.


That issue was not new at that time. When the British took over New Amsterdam and changed it to New York, two groups were living there: British and Dutch. On the vote what would be the general language in the city, and the colony, Dutch lost with two votes to English.