Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


It's of course an individual's own choice, but I think "never" is an overstatement. I am sure there will be instances of Jews marrying non-Jews and vice versa, love knows after all no religion.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Study / Rumor about racism - will I be fine in Poland as a black International student from Africa? [245]


Didn't know you were African? Well, anyway, this proves that the Dutch and Germans are in fact not only the most intelligent ppl of Europe with 107 average IQ as was posted some time ago, but also from the entire world. Good to know.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]


This is nonsense. First of all, I already mentioned that most ppl outside PL didn't know or didn't' want to know about any underlying reasons; secondly, there had been other pogroms before in PL, Kielce was actually one of the last; and thirdly, the "Stalinist Jews" are a convenient myth Poles use to wipe their hands clean. In fact, it was more about those silly blood libel rumors again, combined with indeed a political vacuum AND rumors that Jews had a better standard of living. Read case studies about it.

Those were internal factors. Again, do you really think that outsiders cared about them in 1946? Especially when you know that by that time the SU was still some kinda popular for its war effort and the outrage about the Holocaust was still fresh? You assume too much with the knowledge of hindsight, but if you look at it the way the contemporary outsiders looked at it from abroad, you might be surprised.

And besides, you wanted to know what the reasons was for this "anti-Polonism". I gave you one of it and you don't like it. But if you don't like the reasons, or don't want to hear them, you shouldn't ask.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]


Ok, I give up. If you fail to see the subtleties in my post, then it doesn't matter what I say, it will all be a generalisation.


In 1946? Tell me, which mighty apparatus was already waltzing on ppl's minds for years in favour of the Jews? The Holocaust was just becoming known and then a group of Poles kills yet again a group of Jews. How else could it be perceived at the time?

And by the way, you're now generalizing yourself as well. But it's ok. I understand that no matter what happened, THE POLES WERE ALWAYS GOOD. Yeah, so what if some Poles killed some Jews, so what this sent a ripple throughout Europe and the rest of the world. And you really think this does not have an effect on the outside world? Heck, most Poles were embarrassed to bits about it. And, it's not an "alledged pogrom", the Kielce pogrom, it's a proven one.

I tried to explain why Poles have the image of anti semites. But you don't want to hear them, it seems. So be it. Keep believing it's all a scheme against the Poles, while conveniently ignoring what lies at the basis. If you were ready to accept the reasons on this side of the line, I would have explained the reasons on the Jewish side, but since you're not ready yet, I will just leave it at that and you can keep it nicely among likeminded souls. It's like preaching for one's own parish.

I know the truth hurts, but you will have to accept that some Poles did these things. Just like some Jews did likewise things. And until you are willing to accept the former, you will not be ready for the latter.

>^..^<

M-G (that's what you get for trying to analyse as unbiased as pssbl)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

But this is what I'm trying to say: right after WW2, in exactly the time when all the horrors of the Holocaust come to light, around 40 Jews get killed in an outrage based on some false rumor. How do you think the world outside Poland may have perceived that? The outside world which was still freaking angry about what just had happened in the Holocaust and then this happens, be it a small number? The number is not important, it's the fact that it happened. And one can talk about all underlying reasons, but back then NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY outside of Poland was thinking about any underlying reasons; all they saw was a group of Polish ppl killing a group of Jews RIGHT after the biggest mass murder in history. And you really don't understand what kind of impact that had on the outside world? You really don't see that? It's not about the numbers, it's about the fact that it happened. It was clumsy timing to say the least, but it formed the image of Poland for the outside world. It has nothing to do with propaganda or sth, but if you really cannot see how this affected the outside world, then I would like to recall Anita Prazmowska's words:

(freely transcribed)

"Poles on one hand complain that nobody sees their suffering and problems, while on the other hand they are totally insensitive for what impact their actions may have on the outside world."

You know that I'm right. It may be uncomfortable, and I don't blame you for that.

Just think about when right after WW2 in, for example France, a group of 40 Poles would have been killed. It would've had the same effect on the world outside of France, who would see the French as Pole-killers.

Also, don't forget that it's Americans. They really believe that a kid in Holland some 400 years ago put his finger in a dyke and saved the country from drowning. Things like that tend to lead their own life.

Finally, it was a small group, yes, but you know yourself (also from this forum) that 10 bad apples spoil it for 10.000 good apples.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]


And that is what I have been saying all the time in this thread. Yet I have been accused of being anti-Polish, which is of course absolute nonsense. Both parties have to give in otherwise this nonsense will never come to an end.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Irving_Newhouse,_Jr.

>^..^<

M-G (doesn't mention anything Zionist in there)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

@ Skysoulmate: I remember that my Grandmother, who was generally a wise, kind and warm Jewish woman, didn't want to speak to my dad for days when it turned out that one of his brothers had a German fiancee who was later to become his wife. However, she couldn't keep it up for long as she loved my dad dearly and in heart she was a good woman. I also remember that the only times she got severely angry was when she heard German being spoken (which was not so very unusual, living close to the German border) or when one of my uncles (her sons) spoke jokingly some German words. But in general I hold her memory dearly as she was a good person. My dad's dad however, a Protestant, was a manipulative b*stard who played his children out against eachother. I have hardly any fond memory of him.

@ Mediawatch: I think that witnessing the Holocaust on their own soil being performed by the Nazis was a catalyst in this. And the diverse pogroms that took place after WW2 didn't do the image of the Poles much good. I've read that there were generally a handful of reasons for these pogroms, some of which were big (Kielce) some of them were not so big (Krakau) incidents: the everlasting blood libel (the rumor that Jews sacrifice Christian babies in dark rituals and drank their blood; returning survivors who reclaimed their properties, the welcoming of the Russian soldiers in 1939 (though many seem to forget that Jews knew what was going on in Nazi Germany and therefore simply were glad that they wouldn't fall in the hands of the Nazis) and only later the relative role of the Jews in the CP. I still firmly believe that those pogroms helped forming an image of the Poles as being anti semitic.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]


I know that and I have already agreed to that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]


That was an incident driven out of proportion by some. I do agree that the kiddos who did this should get the spanking of their life in such a manner that they don't even DARE of thinking about doing such a thing again.

Criminals are never in the majority, Seanus, you should know that.

>^..^<

M-G (pasta is delicious, by the way)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

Seanus, that's because the likes of 1jola who are obsessed with the Jews and want to maintain that old animosity that has sickened relations for such a long time. It's a simple as that.

>^..^<

M-G (refreshed last night his Yugo movies. Seen those movies before, Seanus, and I find it of course disgusting and always have stated that ALL war criminals of that war should be handed over to the Hague)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

I'm not even gonna bother react to some of the posters on this thread. Apparently it's all the Jews fault again and I am being challenged for even daring to say that where two fight two are wrong. Better than to listen to that drivel after being as neutral as one can after the constant nagging of some, I go make some nice pasta dish with sausage and a tomato/mushroom sauce. That's more useful than to listen to the saliva the likes of 1jola spouts, a man who doesn't even seem to understand that I give out to the Jews just as much and was safely elsewhere when Poland needed her ppl the most, but came back with all brave words. Bratwurst, want a plate? :)

Edit: typical 1jola quote: "the Jews tell lies about Poland and the Poles retaliate with facts." How moronic can you be to maintain that statement. I think ppl like 1jola do more damage to Poland than any Jew could ever hope to be accused of by him.

>^..^<

M-G (while delicicious, unfortunately not Polish sausage)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]


Unlike you, I am able to see both sides of things. Don't pretend you're so smart, plastic Pole. You're not. Because if you were reading what I wrote and were intelligent enough to grasp anything of it, you knew that I was giving my own opinion on things. And my opinion is a lot more neutral and fairer than your one-sided point of view generally is. Amazing how ppl who left have the biggest mouth. And it must be hard for you that you meet ppl who are smarter than you. Flippant things? Ah, you only want to hear it's only the Jews fault. Well your nonsensical contributions doesn't do much for the emancipation of the Poles. But what the heck do you know, self contended little man that you are.

>^..^<

M-G (now get out of my sight)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]


You didn't read again, did you? Ah well, that doesn't surprise me; plastic poles like you never do thoroughly.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

Ok, somebody get that sacrificing block and the axe!

:)

Good Night.

>^..^<

M-G (yes, you put your head there - now lie still)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

I think though that it will stop if Poles will stop blaming the Jews for so many things. It's an exchange, you know. Jews complain about Poles, Poles complain about Jews and both blame eachother. And it's so wrong: no ppl is entirely evil nor is it entirely good. And it will continue as long as nobody wants to give in. Jews as well as Poles. And that is what I am trying to say in so many posts. I don't think it's an anti Polish thing or an anti Jewish thing. Only the quarrel of two groups who suffered tremendously about the question who suffered most. Think about it: "my suffering was worst than yours!" "Hell no, WE suffered more than you guys!". And on and on and on. If you think of it that way, it seems rather childish, don't you think?

You know, somebody has to put both in seperate corners of the room and if the quarreling starts all over again, both will be spanked. Until it stops. Jews and Poles need eachother in a way as they share a common history. But it's like an old couple: can't live with eachother, can't live without eachother, right?

And by the way: Parade magazine is imo not such an important magazine. Different cake would be Time magazine, if they would say the same, you'd be really in trouble, imo.

Edit: ps, complaining and quarreling like the Poles and Jews do is not so much a leftist thing as more a right wing thing.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

Hey, I am not defending it. I am analysing it. And if this guy writes on one hand that there is some sort of anti Polish tendency, he shouldn't proceed to give those anti Polish tendencies new feeding ground.

>^..^<

M-G (just being neutral here as I am not Polish)

News / "POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots [249]

Ok, the guy who wrote this article in Polonia complains on one hand that the death camps in Poland are being called "Polish death camps" and in the same article he goes on and gives exactly the reason why ppl call(ed) it "Polish camps". Actually I didn't get the part where he starts ranting about German Jews feeling superior towards Slavic Jews (?) and that Germans feel themselves superior to Slavs. I do understand what he is saying, but I don't see the connection between that part and the fact that the camps are being called "Polish". Perhaps the writer doesn't understand that by writing this, he gives other writers the perfect reason to call the camps "Polish".

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M-G (the camps stood in Poland and to the average American this makes them Nazi camps in Poland, which quickly detoriates into "Polish Camps". Not condoning this, but it is explicable)

News / US to deploy Patriot missiles to Poland [405]


He means by Islam.

>^..^<

M-G (thank God that only a few Americans have a clue about how Europe works)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

Saudi Arabia is considered a friendly nation, and they speak Arabic there too.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

Yeah, but Poland was part of the enemy in the time we are talking about. That caused the confusion.

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M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

Well, at least Jews admit it when some of them have done wrong. I haven't heard any of you admit a Pole did wrong.

And Jola, just read again, before you try to pyss me off. You missed the pont gloriously again, just try it again. But now more seriously. I did NOT talk about Jewish mentally retarded nor the Jewish handicapped. The Euthanasia program was a main reason why the final solution got delayed.

Just see:


Beep! Wrong again. Where do I state it was Jewish handicapped?


And once again, Jola proves that he doesn't have a clue. Doesn't matter. After all he was AN ASTRONAUT TRAINER and Astronaut trainers are always right, right?

Guzzler, my friend, pls don't take this clown Jola seriously. He is not a historian and he proves time and time again that he does not have a clue. See his answers to my answer to your question. You know, Jola is right and the ENTIRE historian world is wrong. That's the way it is in Jola's world. I hope for him that at least his dog loves him, because nobody else does.

Whatever you say. Indeed, you have not read Martin Gilbert's works and it shows. You have not got a clue, lapdog, pls leave this discussion, your contribution is absolutely zero. Go brag about your time in the USAAF or as a trainer of Astronauts.

Furthermore, Jola has proved that he doesn't see concepts, cannot see wider connections and doesn't understand that some methods of killing for the Nazis were tryouts to see what method would suit best. But Jola knows all about Jewish communists, let's ask him. Jola, tell us about Jewish communists, your specialty. And leave this to ppl who DO know about the subject which unfortunately does not include you.

>^..^<

M-G (Jola is just an amateur. No problem as such, but still, just an amateur)

And as a ps: Jola, if you're such a defender of Poland's pride: where were you in Poland's darkest hour? Answer: you were in the US, safe and far away from all the shyte that hit the fan :) You admitted that yourself. Ghee, must make you feel like a real hero to come back when it's safe enough. Or would it be that you're so full of shame of that cowardice act that you're now doing your utmost to prove to the world that you're defending Poland, no matter if you're wrong? I do pity you a bit, must be hell to know that despite all those brave word, deep down inside you're a little coward that ran away with his family when things got a bit bad.

Puts your arguments of those poor ppl in Poland who had no choice of leaving in a very bad light, doesn't it?

>^..^<

M-G (grin)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Had to do with the Euthanasia program for the mentally retarded and physically handicapped. This program was performed in Germany itself, but caused such an outrage that Hitler, publicly at least, cancelled the program. It was for the first time and the last time he did so. From then on, everything had to go in deepest secrecy, at least away from the public eye in Germany.

A few points, as I have to go to bed now:

- he was planning it much earlier, but the reactions to the Euthanasia program made him realise that he could not do so in Germany herself

- the idea at first was simply shoot them, but when they tried that, it became too expensive as bullets cost a lot of money apparently

- then he wanted them to work themselves to death, so he tried that too, but this also could take years and then you had the individuals who inevitably would survive

- by the end of 1941 it seemed that not of these solutions worked satisfactory, so the meeting at the Wannsee was called where a more efficient way needed to be developed;

So it was after he already tried a few methods before he came to the endsolution, the one that should get rid of the Jews once and for all in a most efficicient way. Therefore he invited Nazis from all walks of Nazi society to brainstorm and get it done.

I think Martin Gilbert has explored this territory, but I will look into that and else there are unfortunately only Dutch historians who have gone in depth into the topic.

I will expand further tomorrow evening as I have to go to bed now as this topic needs to be explained more in depth, but I really have to go to bed now as I have to get up at 6 tomorrow and it's gonna be a long day, so I better get some rest.

Take care, my friend.

>^..^<

M-G (Good Night)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


I have to correct you on that, my friend, in that sense that it wasn't as structural, more an orchestrated or arteficial one, trying to follow (in the second half of the 30's that is) the German example. In the first half of the 30's most of those movements everywhere in the world, except the US, were following the Fascist model as in Italy, later on Spain and Portugal and even later still, parts of the Nazism in Germany. In other words, they saw what happened in Germany with the Jews and kinda were like: "if they do that, we have to do that too". And this acting never had a broad following outside of Germany as, especially in the West, anti-semitism wasn't as deeply rooted as it was in other parts of Europe. They could not depend on wide popular support when attacking Jews. Also, the fact that the Jews fought back, not only in Britain, but also in NL, Belgium and a couple of other countries should illustrate that. Another factor that goes to show that these movements weren't based on broad popular support was that all of them were in the decline, be this in number of members, or in votes.

All countries in Europe sought a way to get out of the crisis in the early thirties. First they saw the Italian situation were a strong leader put country before indivual. This idea always appeals in times of crisis, therefore everywhere in Europe similar parties popped up like mushrooms in the early 30's. Later on in the 30's they witnessed the success Hitler had with rebuilding a country that was in tethers back again to a strong and proud nation, so they began to adopt his ideas. Most of those movements however, were very reluctant until the last few years of the 30's to actually start pestering Jews.

One can say that this was stupid and fascistic or Nazi or sth, but don't forget that until 1938 it wasn't clear at all to the outside world that Hitler was preparing for war. Also, until Stalingrad and El Alamein it wasn't clear either that he was going to lose the war; in 1941 his army was the strongest in the world and probably also for the biggest part of 1942 as well. So, when a country got invaded by Hitler cs, firstly those fascist splinter groups were placed in positions where they before the war never could have dreamed off and secondly many ppl decided to join them as, like I said, it wasn't sure at all at the time that Hitler was going to lose the war. And in fact, he was darn close to winning it.

So, I wouldn't per sé say that all Western countries were anti-semitic as it were only certain groups and it wasn't sth that was layered through society as a whole in none of the Western countries. There was no "Jewish Myth" to fuel hatred, hardly any religious ground and the Jews were, except for France perhaps, not a totally isolated group that lived alongside the locals; in most Western civilisations Jews were fully assimilated and just civilians of their country. Civilians that happen to adhere to the Judaic religion.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Of course, once the

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Well, if this would have been said earlier in the discussion it would have been cleared much earlier as well. But as Bratwurst said, it was implied that a Polish citizen, without mentioning of any rights to stay in the US, joined the US Airforce.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

Not only membership of the communist party. Also if you or any of your relatives has ever been a member of a "leftist" student organisation, heck even discussion groups, hobby clubs and the like. When my bro emigrated to the US, I received a form as well to fill in those kinda things. And I had to give addresses and phone numbers of all schools, universities and so on for the past 20 years before that. And the embassy actually checked some of them, I later heard.

About the Jewish opinion piece: nobody here has ever denied the presence of Jews within the ranks of the CP. Nobody also has ever denied there were bad apples among them, just as everywhere else. There were Poles member of the CP too and Russians in the Russian CP. And they all did bad things and good things.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


This addresses the Bidupski book. Read post 107 again to see what I said about the topic. But what I wonder is, would Romanians write a book about the negative portrayal of silly, clumsy and stupid Transsylvanian farmers in all the Dracual movies? Or about how stigmatizing those entire vampire movies (as always set in Central/Eastern Europe) are for those ppl as being stupid and dumb?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


And who are you to tell me to leave? I stay here as long as I want and as long as I think you're posting nonsense, I will have my say about it. And there is nothing that you can and will do about it. Little tip: this is not your forum. You can prove whatever you think you want to prove, but I am still staying here. Capice, sugar dumpling?


I already figured out you couldn't become one. And heck, after building some of the biggest callcentres in Europe there isn't much that impresses me. Training gymnastics to Astronauts is neither that impressive. So I am still laughing.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sure, and I, as Dutch citizen was Walesa's right hand. Get a grip. If you think that anybody believes that nonsense, you're even more stupid than I already thought you were.


Fine with me, I never took you seriously anyway, especially not after above remark about the US airforce. But besides all that nonsense of being a fighter pilot and all, you just simply didn't understand the remark once again, didn't you? Ah well, doesn't surprise me at all, little lapdog, there is not much that you do understand, do you? Pls do PF a favour and leave this forum so we don't have to deal with your useless drivel anymore. Ahwwww, Hollowood made 4 or 5 movies with bad Poles in it! Somebody get a handkerchief, I nearly have to cry of laughing. Grow up, narrow minded man.

>^..^<

M-G (is it time for your afternoon walk again? Wait, let me get your leash, you're drooling all over the place and I feel another episode of the PF Omnibus coming on, fantastic)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


True, together with the Germans, Irish and Italians they were the biggest ethnic group in the US, the Germans being the biggest. This led to harsh discussions in 1914 whether the US should join the war on the UK side or the German side. Well, we know which side they joined. Later on, the Germans would become being portrayed also as the villains. Just try and count those post-war movies that contain some crazed up super evil professor who talks with a heavy German accent that he wants to rule the world. :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)