Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


POLISH AND IRISH CHRISTMAS

An Irish Christmas is all about socialising. There are huge extended family gatherings and visiting of neighbours and friends. For years the returning emigrants home for the festive season lent a very special flavour to the season. Of course it's still the case that people returning for Christmas is a big thing but I think less so than in the 1980s for example when so many of the young had gone to England, Australia, USA, Canada etc. There were fewer cheap flights and they didn't make it home that often, it was a big deal coming 'home' for Christmas.

To me the Polish Christmas feels slightly sombre and sober compared to the Irish which is very high spirited, merry and filled with laughter and smiles, even in settings where there's no alcohol! The religious aspect is still important to many. Midnight mass is very well attended and again, the atmosphere there is generally a happy, joyous one with lots of beautiful carols, the singing is very important. That's another aspect of Irish Christmas, the music. Lots of talking, lots of laughter and the sound of music, that's an Irish Christmas to me!

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


I think Polly that we're all a combination of nature and nurture but I think that in the end it's the genes that are the deciding factor. What I find fascinating is the differences between siblings raised in the same home environment and yet often so different to each other and that's why I think genetics are the decider. Siblings have the same gene pool but a different mix of those genes to each other so despite being raised in the same home by the same parents, they can be quite different to each other in character, interests etc. You know how even in appearance some children take after the father's side and some the mother's. Off-topic response to off-topic comment but hey, it's Christmas! Thank you Moderators.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Yes, they do that in Ireland too, being so small and with so much coastline you hear that even in the suburbs of Dublin; I miss that, you don't hear it in Warsaw.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


No problems there when I was a child. My father and his parents cordially detested each other and they were notoriously inhospitable to boot so there was never any question of having to go there. That's very rare for an Irish family but I blame their Cromwellian origins for that though my paternal granny was very fond of her gin and tonic.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I never suggested that they were. They're just handy labels that people the world over use.


Well firstly they're tacky, secondly they're mildly hideous, and thirdly - unlike the other delights I mentioned, they don't actually exist!

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


And in Scotland, the first visitor over the threshold after midnight on New Year's Eve was ideally a tall, dark haired man, as this was said to bring good luck for the year! He was known as the First Foot. In some regions the female was also considered bad luck.


Poor child! Diabolically clever way of keeping the little ones quiet during a busy day for the adults of the house.


And we're observing that tradition on this thread, very good.


Yes, I think that prevails somewhat even today.


Interesting, a Pagan custom which survived I would say as fortune telling was very much against the Christian tradition.


Yes I believe that belief exists in other parts of Europe too.

Thank you Polly, all very interesting and here's my contribution. I found this on YouTube. It's from the Śląsk region. It's a bit 'staged' but it's nice:

youtube.com/watch?v=7LBX5iw_m6Y


Yes, yes, that's right. In the poem 'Twas The Night Before Christmas', (proper title A Visit From St Nicholas) Santa is a tiny elfin figure, which is why he can come down the chimney so easily. That was written sometime in the 1820s. He was an almost exact contemporary of Irving. I mean the author of the poem, Clement Clarke Moore, not Santa!

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Smurf, ah sure you're a lovely lad altogether. I knew you wouldn't let me down!

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Not really. but the one is derived partly from the other. Father Christmas was the gift bringer of English folklore, he has white hair and a beard, wears a crown of holly and long fur trimmed robes, sometimes blue or even green, sometimes red. You'll see him on Victorian Christmas cards. Santa is an American invention loosely based on St Nicholas the gift bringer of many European traditions and he sort of got combined I suppose by the immigrants into a mixture of the two. The Santa image with the red suit etc which we know and some of us love is the Coca Cola Santa designed back in the 1930s for an advertising campaign.


Look Smurf, the Catholic church was quite clever. Saturnalia, Calends, Yule, all that was a time of merry making and as a relatively new religion they weren't going to take the chance of telling people they couldn't have a party. So simply make it a church festival and combine the two. No big deal really.

By the way you were asking about Christmas pudding. No, not Irish, another legacy of our colonial days, but sure at this stage we've made it our own, especially with the Guinness! (or the Jamesons, or Hennesseys)


Smurf, I can see I'll have to do the Irish mammy on you here - would Mammy allow that talk in the house at Christmas if she'd already put a 'rule' in place? You might have missed it, but we agreed no barbed comments and sly digs. Come on let's see if we can stick to that?

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


You old charmer, trying to entice me into the city centre with the promise of sweetly scented dainties! I'm afraid with sweeping, scrubbing, window washing, tree buying, decorating, baking, (and praying of course) I won't be going far from home over the next few days, but all jokes aside, thank you very much for the kind gesture.

Baylis and Harding - how terribly English and upper crust. Interesting, they're so elegant. Sophisticated Poles (have you seen that awful Westwing website, such pretentious stuff) will never know the joy of those hideously gaudy, tacky crackers of my own childhood with the inferior paper hats. My mother always shook her head sorrowfully over those and recalled the amazing concoctions of her own childhood when paper hats really were party hats, beautifully decorated, remnants of Victoriana really. I used to collect up all the discarded paper hats and store them in what I called my 'treasure box' and then have a wonderful time snipping them up and making collages.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]

Polly, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

When I was a child we understood quite well that we were celebrating the birth of Jesus and we went to church on Christmas morning but Santa brought our presents. In pre-Santa days in Ireland, during my mother's childhood the presents were brought by Father Christmas or Daddy Christmas as very young children called him. The term was still used by my grandparents when I was a child. Father Christmas is quite probably derived from an old Pagan tradition. Christianity has very neatly absorbed many Pagan customs (such as decorating with greenery and lights at the mid-winter) and combined them into Christian festivals. Ireland is a great example of that. It's normal, it's natural, it's fascinating and quite beautiful.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]

Or if only Chopin had written something for Christmas.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Yes, you're right.


Well I'm not making it up.


My husband would say so!


Anymore? They never were.By the way note the significance of the air bunnies. No, there's no such thing as the West. It's an invention.


And there we go again.


Paulina, I have absolutely no interest in all this East West North South lark, that's your thing. My true interests are butterflies, rainbows, flowers, kittens and embroidery.

Now the day is wearing on and I must go and do something fabulous darling.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]

Now to get things back on track here's a link to some Polish Christmas carols accompanied by some nice images of Christmas in Poland:

Does Poland have an equivalent of the Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols from Kings College, Cambridge? I'd love to hear it if there is.

Language / "Poles" or "Polish people" - which is better to use? [200]

Well this guy calls himself a Pole (as indeed you do yourself Mr Troll who calls himself AdamPole even though the term Pole is 'disrespectful'):

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im-pole-pole-meet-britains-5283112

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


They were fairly mild comments Polly, observations made in a conversational way, not with any intention of being snide or derogatory. If you let them drift past like a gentle breeze, they will just float away. Don't whip them up into a storm. Come on now....


Harry, you old sweetie. I couldn't dream of helping myself to your Christmas treats! It's just the appearance of the crackers I like more than anything. The contents are ridiculous aren't they? It's just childhood memories, rattling them all and trying to guess what might be in them, the almighty pull and the joy or disappointment when the snap ignited or failed to ignite!

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]

Paulina I sense you're seeking a sparring partner and I really don't have the time or inclination for that. However I'll do you the courtesy of a brief response.


As far as I'm concerned I already addressed that.


You mentioned that your friends were in the UK but you spoke of what you term 'Western' men or 'Westerners'.


I get your point. Let's just say that like so many women I've done a lot of work on him to bring him up to scratch - but the raw material was there to begin with!


Warsaw, Wrocław, a few places.


Some are. I was never approached that way in Ireland but I was, more than once in Poland.


Well it's true. I remember once I was waiting to cross the road in central Warsaw and there was a guy, well over sixty I'd say, standing beside me and quite blatantly inspecting me. Now it had happened so often in the past I'd just had enough so I turned to him and said in English, 'that's right have a good old gawp, God Almighty' or something along those lines.


You use that word a lot and it's meaningless. There is no such thing, any more than there is an Easterner. People from Western Europe are of different nationalities and cultures. Are you an Easterner Paulina? or a Centraler???


Italy, Spain et al are politically less democratic and economically less stable. Would you really say that Italy was in the same category as Sweden for example? A lot of talk about East and West here but Northern and Southern Europe are two very different kettles of fish.


Use your common sense.


Of course I can understand that.


Absolutely but the country under discussion was Poland.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]



Now, boys, I started this thread and before doing so I said this:


No lectures or scolding at Christmas. Peace and goodwill towards each other now ok?

Johnny you were absent dear so probably weren't aware of the rule so you're forgiven but you know now...

If anyone wants to discuss other aspects of Christmas they can do so elsewhere but not here in the 'Christmassy thread'. This is a place of happiness, warmth and a bit of nostalgia. Joy to the world!

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Read this:
independent.ie/entertainment/books/the-fai-blazer-who-bought-a-polish-girl-for-a-bottle-of-scotch-29633275.html
Eamon Dunphy was a top Irish soccer player and is a household name as a sports broadcaster in Ireland, not very well liked as he's extremely forthright but he is generally honest.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Ha, ha, ha!! Good one Johnny.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]

Just make the curry mild or keep a couple of cans of coconut milk handy and make a spicy batch for yourself and a mild batch for your Polish guests by adding the coconut milk.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Oh Roger, you must have the appetite of a bird yourself! One per person dear. When I cook duck I roast one for each person and they weigh nearly twice that. I do the same with lamb shanks and pork hocks. Mind you I couldn't eat a whole hock but I could easily eat a lamb shank weighing a kilo and I can polish off most of a duck. I have a small appetite as a rule and I'm a petite person not some giant, guzzling gargantua with her snout permanently in the feed bag! So when cooking for men or mixed company I don't stint, better have a bit left over, it won't go to waste.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Agree. You know, I really couldn't bring myself to eat that at Christmas of all times. How could you justify spending what might be a week's food budget for some Polish families and knowing that there are people going through bins in Warsaw even as we speak. Even with the reduction you'd have to think more than twice wouldn't you?

On a happier note, excuse the pun, is the Ukrainian Carol of the Bells sung in Poland at all? It's quite beautiful. Here's a link to a lovely rendition:

Ukrainian carol sung by an English choir (Libera) in an Irish Cathedral:
youtube.com/watch?v=I6x-pjVL67A

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Ná habair é (don't mention it!) Pronounced 'naw hobber ey'.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Just stand your ground, if a little bit of a woman like me can do it, you can! My Polish is abysmal and I'm an obvious foreigner whilst you're almost native.

Here's my tip for bargaining. Decide how much you're prepared to pay for something (my yardstick is, if I wouldn't pay that for it in Ireland, I'm not paying it in Poland), bring cash with you and have it at the ready, not in a wallet, no fumbling, clutched in your sweaty little paw in you pocket. When you hear the price, if it's more than you want to pay, produce the nearest amount in cash that you're willing to pay and wave it saying 'I have only x amount'. You'd be surprised at how often it works. The sight of actual money makes quite a difference. Also if you're going near the end of the day or end of the week, traders are anxious to make a sale so you have a better chance. Well that's my advice anyway. Maybe others have some different strategies?

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Leaving the door unlocked overnight on Christmas Eve in case the Holy Family should come seeking shelter. Of course doors in rural Ireland were routinely left unlocked during the day (people simply walked into each others houses calling out 'God Bless All Here' to alert the inhabitants that they'd arrived. I know some older people who remember that quite well). But they were always latched at night, so this was quite special.

The candle in the window. Placing a lighted candle in an un-curtained window to guide travellers through the darkness and indicate that they were welcome to stop at your house. Bear in mind that as recently as the 1950s many parts of rural Ireland were without electricity and in fact some houses didn't get it until the 1970s. According to the older people who remember it, it was an amazing sight to walk back over the fields after the farm work, as dusk was falling and to see these lights visible all over the countryside for miles around.

Whitewashing the house. Not the best time of year for painting and decorating in the Irish climate! But a couple of weeks before Christmas cottages and farm buildings were whitewashed inside and out.

The Wren Boys(often pronounced the 'ran'. On 26 December the feast of St Stephen a group of boys would organise a wren hunt. The bird would be caught, killed and hung from a holly bush, the reason supposedly being that a wren was said to have betrayed the hiding place of St Stephen, leading to him being captured and stoned to death. I believe the boys used to go round from door to door displaying the wren. They don't hunt the bird anymore but the festival is still kept in parts of Ireland and the Wren Boys come out on St Stephen's Day.

So there's a few for you!


Oh my God! I have a Lidl near me and I've been threatening to go in there for weeks. New Year's Resolution for me, stop procrastinating. I hope it wasn't one of those 'this week only' things.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]


Yes, I know, there's a vibe of penance about it isn't there?? That and the fish and no red meat, a bit like Good Friday.


Loads of customs, not so many dishes. As you know the majority of Irish were kept in a state of considerable poverty for much of their history whilst the Irish gentry and more prosperous merchants, tradesmen and farmers, even those who remained Catholic, adopted those English dishes that appealed to them.

Life / All Things Christmassy in Poland [361]

Well it's a struggle to make them in Poland because it can be hard to get all the ingredients - well ten years ago anyway I couldn't get glace cherries or mixed peel and my sister had to send them from Ireland, also I think I had trouble getting suet for the mince pies. Suet comes from around the kidneys of the cow and it's a peculiarly British delight! I have the Christmas cake recipe somewhere. I'll rummage around for it. The mincemeat for the pies needs to be homemade and you can make them either with shortcrust pastry or puff. I prefer the puff variety. Also add a good dash of brandy or whiskey to the mince mixture. Here's a nice recipe for mincemeat:

maryberry.co.uk/recipes/christmas/special-mincemeat

Bear in mind though that all these things are best made well in advance and the cake is at its best after at least two months.

By the way it's called mincemeat because the original pies of pre-Cromwellian days contained a mixture of meat and fruits. Before Cromwell's time they were baked in the shape of a crib with a little pastry Jesus but after Cromwell banned the practice it was never revived. Just as well really, imagine how fiddly it would be to make. Amazing to think that Catholics have something to be thankful to Cromwell for! That's Christmas.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]



Yes I know, I made that point myself.



I'm also aware of that but it's a point that I think many women from that part of the world would dispute and probably find offensive. Certainly from what my husband tells me, being sexually active from the age of about fourteen was common. He does stress that it wasn't all girls, by any means but that it wasn't unusual. On a mild level, stuff like playing strip poker, going skinny dipping etc was considered the norm. Probably no different to teenagers in many parts of the world.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I think you're being deliberately obtuse. It was you who suggested that and I was responding to your statements:




Now on to other things.


Now you see I would think the opposite. As an Irish woman I would find Irish men much more respectful towards women than Polish men (my own kochany mąź excepted of course!). Polish men lech over women quite a bit in my experience. You don't generally see Irish guys cruising and kerb crawling on Saturday afternoons, calling out to lone females through their car windows, Latino style 'Hey baby, wanna have some fun?' yadda yadda, you know the vibe. And as for the old fellas, Holy Mary, Mother of God, I was gobsmacked. Never mind all that opening doors and kissing hands, the way they stare at women and give them the up, down, head to toe inspection.


No problem, but I do find the 'why' of things interesting.


Now that's interesting. I wouldn't consider Italy to be the 'West' anymore than Spain or Greece or many other Mediterranean countries.