Bratwurst Boy
9 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
...okay...then not Trump....whats the other? DeSantis?
...okay...then not Trump....whats the other? DeSantis?
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
.....the next Trump might promise his voters to let those freeloading Europeans to fend for themselves and save lotsa money!
And remember the neighbourly frowning as the german Chancellor promised to beef up the Bundeswehr in the face of the russian threat again? Neighbours who like their Germans militarily weak as a kitten quite well!
With a common army all that would no longer pose a problem....
.....the next Trump might promise his voters to let those freeloading Europeans to fend for themselves and save lotsa money!
And remember the neighbourly frowning as the german Chancellor promised to beef up the Bundeswehr in the face of the russian threat again? Neighbours who like their Germans militarily weak as a kitten quite well!
With a common army all that would no longer pose a problem....
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
That's another thing...."Five Eyes" is only for english language members....curious, isn't it.....
I see a future EU army as part of NATO....a branch if you so want....and why the hell not. It won't threaten the status of UK as US' bestie...:) But I could imagine the US quite glad about it...they are thoroughly sick of defending Europe!
Good night
Five Eyes
That's another thing...."Five Eyes" is only for english language members....curious, isn't it.....
I see a future EU army as part of NATO....a branch if you so want....and why the hell not. It won't threaten the status of UK as US' bestie...:) But I could imagine the US quite glad about it...they are thoroughly sick of defending Europe!
Good night
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
The EU has 27 members....members which are sharing alot with each other....who are about to unify their economies....twenty of them even share the same currency....with effectively open borders....and with Brussels even a kind of a capital....all markers of an independent nation....lets add to that a common military...sharing the costs so that every country will profit from it....
Thing is as the Ukraine crisis has shown, Europe right now is unable to defend itself and dependent on the US = this status quo is anything but successful, we have to change things!
Europe is not the EU.
The EU has 27 members....members which are sharing alot with each other....who are about to unify their economies....twenty of them even share the same currency....with effectively open borders....and with Brussels even a kind of a capital....all markers of an independent nation....lets add to that a common military...sharing the costs so that every country will profit from it....
What is the benefit in changing a very successful status quo.?
Thing is as the Ukraine crisis has shown, Europe right now is unable to defend itself and dependent on the US = this status quo is anything but successful, we have to change things!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....effectively what?
Since European counties and others already effectively.
....effectively what?
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
I told you why.....I have no idea!
But why are you so against a common EU army? UK won't be forced into anything at all....
....and how it works....without belonging to one country....but many different members with surely different shares and yes, even percentages....some of it's members can't even stand each other...
Why not the EU too?
It would surely take some of the defense burden off the USian shoulders...what's so bad about it?
I suspect I know why.
I told you why.....I have no idea!
But why are you so against a common EU army? UK won't be forced into anything at all....
Perhaps a better way to describe it is as a good example of how NATO looks and works.
....and how it works....without belonging to one country....but many different members with surely different shares and yes, even percentages....some of it's members can't even stand each other...
Why not the EU too?
It would surely take some of the defense burden off the USian shoulders...what's so bad about it?
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
I see the soon-to-be-starting NATO excercise "Air Defender" as good way how a common european army would look and work like....
So much better as so many armies besides each other....that makes no sense!
I see the soon-to-be-starting NATO excercise "Air Defender" as good way how a common european army would look and work like....
So much better as so many armies besides each other....that makes no sense!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....and still NATO exists....
I dunno what you want from me....the exact plan??? :)
I guess in the beginning there will be different parts, the sharing will be varied, after the possibilities of a country....how should I know. I wouldn't be to surprised if a closer cooperation between european countries is already happening inside NATO....especially regarding Poland, which has become a frontline state once again!
Europe isn't a country though, is it...
....and still NATO exists....
You're still avoiding the question
I dunno what you want from me....the exact plan??? :)
I guess in the beginning there will be different parts, the sharing will be varied, after the possibilities of a country....how should I know. I wouldn't be to surprised if a closer cooperation between european countries is already happening inside NATO....especially regarding Poland, which has become a frontline state once again!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
Maybe it's different for continental Europeans than for UKians?
Otherwise for what else would you want to devote your army to if not for the defense of your own country, for Europe?
For the rules....well....NATO has a two percent rule.....and the EU is working with lotsa more rules....I don't think a common army is more complicated to build than the EU! :)
Especially not as we have NATO to learn how it works....
Well....here in PF the discussions are always hot underway when the armies of different countries are the topic....and some countries seen as "shirker"....even this thread is about Poland maybe beefing up its army....and if other countries shouldn't better follow...
Every country for it's own is for mainland Europe just not the best and frankly not needed anymore....is that so hard to accept for an UKian?
Maybe it's different for continental Europeans than for UKians?
Otherwise for what else would you want to devote your army to if not for the defense of your own country, for Europe?
For the rules....well....NATO has a two percent rule.....and the EU is working with lotsa more rules....I don't think a common army is more complicated to build than the EU! :)
Especially not as we have NATO to learn how it works....
Is that a bad thing?
Well....here in PF the discussions are always hot underway when the armies of different countries are the topic....and some countries seen as "shirker"....even this thread is about Poland maybe beefing up its army....and if other countries shouldn't better follow...
Every country for it's own is for mainland Europe just not the best and frankly not needed anymore....is that so hard to accept for an UKian?
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
I don't understand what you mean....the costs and burden will be shared....with the promise that this army will be used where it is needed....you mean?
Everybody....just look at a map of Europe....all these borders....so many countries.....even if so many countries have open borders, exchanging peacefully people and goods....but so many armies side by side are still needed? Mak sense? Are the best solution???
Nope!
I don't understand what you mean....the costs and burden will be shared....with the promise that this army will be used where it is needed....you mean?
Everybody....just look at a map of Europe....all these borders....so many countries.....even if so many countries have open borders, exchanging peacefully people and goods....but so many armies side by side are still needed? Mak sense? Are the best solution???
Nope!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
I will think some more on the finer details! :)
But I guess what happens now with Europe as consequence of the Ukraine war...and what happens inside NATO because of this...will be quite the game changer....we will see what happens in the next few years.
When the Ukraine crisis is over China is waiting....we will have to bring more to the table as we can now.
And it will always make much more sense to fund a common army than every country having to shoulder their own burden alone....we could achieve so much more, so much bigger than every country for its own!
I will think some more on the finer details! :)
But I guess what happens now with Europe as consequence of the Ukraine war...and what happens inside NATO because of this...will be quite the game changer....we will see what happens in the next few years.
When the Ukraine crisis is over China is waiting....we will have to bring more to the table as we can now.
And it will always make much more sense to fund a common army than every country having to shoulder their own burden alone....we could achieve so much more, so much bigger than every country for its own!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
We have a gazillion armies in mainland Europe....armies are expensive....we have better armies and worse armies....modern armies and not so modern armies....where is the sense in that as everybody knows we, who are most members in the EU AND also in NATO, will never fight each other ever again....but we still live in a world of enemies!
It makes much more sense to share the burden and build up one most modern army with much less...something everybody can take part in and profit from!
We have a gazillion armies in mainland Europe....armies are expensive....we have better armies and worse armies....modern armies and not so modern armies....where is the sense in that as everybody knows we, who are most members in the EU AND also in NATO, will never fight each other ever again....but we still live in a world of enemies!
It makes much more sense to share the burden and build up one most modern army with much less...something everybody can take part in and profit from!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
Every NATO excercise shows that it works and how it works.....every excercise has to have logistics and a command structure, a common language....where is the problem?
I mean something like NATO, just for mainland Europe, the EU.....
We would still be NATO....that would be the global "mother" if you so want....but we need to find a solution for mainland Europe!
Again....every european country maintaining it's own expensive army makes no sense anylonger! Not when we in the EU sharing so much in the meantime, have grown so close!
It's simply navies, armies etc cooperating with each other.
Every NATO excercise shows that it works and how it works.....every excercise has to have logistics and a command structure, a common language....where is the problem?
or do you mean something like a NATO
I mean something like NATO, just for mainland Europe, the EU.....
We would still be NATO....that would be the global "mother" if you so want....but we need to find a solution for mainland Europe!
Again....every european country maintaining it's own expensive army makes no sense anylonger! Not when we in the EU sharing so much in the meantime, have grown so close!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
...isn't that a common army already? They complement each other, build on different traditional strengths but still work together...these international NATO excercises show that it works...
Mainland Europe doesn't need so many different armies anymore....and nobody would need to feel threatened by a beefed up german military anymore!
Can armies, navies etc not complement each other without being part of a unified structure?
...isn't that a common army already? They complement each other, build on different traditional strengths but still work together...these international NATO excercises show that it works...
Mainland Europe doesn't need so many different armies anymore....and nobody would need to feel threatened by a beefed up german military anymore!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
There isn't?
We wouldn't need to discuss who beefs up how much.....all would chip in, the burden would be shared.....it would cost each partner alot less to co-own the most modern army.
Actually the other possibility, many beefed up, expensive armies side by side so close in Europe makes no sense anylonger.....
That's why I was talking about an EU-army....and the EU for sure is a unig, a union and an alliance!
It makes sense to add a military option to the close economical and political cooperation, the open borders, the advanced unification....
There's no reason for a European Army.
There isn't?
We wouldn't need to discuss who beefs up how much.....all would chip in, the burden would be shared.....it would cost each partner alot less to co-own the most modern army.
Actually the other possibility, many beefed up, expensive armies side by side so close in Europe makes no sense anylonger.....
Europe isn't a country, isn't a unit or a union or an alliance,
That's why I was talking about an EU-army....and the EU for sure is a unig, a union and an alliance!
It makes sense to add a military option to the close economical and political cooperation, the open borders, the advanced unification....
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
We could end that old rivalry with a common army.....
especially about France who sulk and become petulant about not being the leading European power.
We could end that old rivalry with a common army.....
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
Poland would be ideal to shake things up....
A lot may change over the next 5 years.
Poland would be ideal to shake things up....
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....it's also better for the image of such a newly build unified army....if it's NOT seen as a german project....someone of the newer members, not especially of the old core...
The unifying effect will be alot greater!
We have some kind of german-french military already (a brigade)....it plays no role whatsoever, and it surely wasn't the starting point for the buildup of a new EU-Army.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade
....it's also better for the image of such a newly build unified army....if it's NOT seen as a german project....someone of the newer members, not especially of the old core...
The unifying effect will be alot greater!
We have some kind of german-french military already (a brigade)....it plays no role whatsoever, and it surely wasn't the starting point for the buildup of a new EU-Army.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
Germany can surely pay it's way out and some of our arms manufacturers are only waiting for more orders....
But Poland wouldn't be alone in an EU-Army....most EU-countries have strong military histories and would like to chip in with people and materials (and money)....but someone needs to make a start....Poland would be a better one than Germany or France, I would say...
For an EU army to work, all of Europe must beed up to some degree.
Germany can surely pay it's way out and some of our arms manufacturers are only waiting for more orders....
But Poland wouldn't be alone in an EU-Army....most EU-countries have strong military histories and would like to chip in with people and materials (and money)....but someone needs to make a start....Poland would be a better one than Germany or France, I would say...
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
*nods*....we will observe that buildup and what Warsaw does with it in the end! The possibilities are all there...
*nods*....we will observe that buildup and what Warsaw does with it in the end! The possibilities are all there...
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....a win/win for the West, huh?
A more self-confident Poland, a US which must'n bear everything alone anymore and a Europe putting it's defense into hands which are most interested in that.
....a win/win for the West, huh?
A more self-confident Poland, a US which must'n bear everything alone anymore and a Europe putting it's defense into hands which are most interested in that.
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....maybe this polish buildup will become the core of a new EU-army.....now that would gain Poland lotsa influence in Brussels!!!
*mumbles*
*looks at watch*
I can differentiate between the polish people and well...some of his political leadership, I truly can....I swear!!!!
And, Poland is not alone in Europe in that it looks to the US as its main defense support.
....maybe this polish buildup will become the core of a new EU-army.....now that would gain Poland lotsa influence in Brussels!!!
[quote=GefreiterKania]*waits for about 3 minutes*
*mumbles*
*looks at watch*
I can differentiate between the polish people and well...some of his political leadership, I truly can....I swear!!!!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....if that's so then that speaks of a total loss of reality....there is nobody who has done more as the EU for Poland....since the end of the Cold War.
It took them in, opened it's borders for their goods and their people, and poured BILLIONS of support funds into the country, year after year after year....to **** on all that and look at a far away country as it's "saviour", feeling badly treated by its neighbours, can't be good for the country....
You can't make good policy on such wrong beliefs!
America may be a doubtful friend, but at least they give the impression they are, and they have a potent defense force, whereas our neighbor friends don't always treat us friendly
....if that's so then that speaks of a total loss of reality....there is nobody who has done more as the EU for Poland....since the end of the Cold War.
It took them in, opened it's borders for their goods and their people, and poured BILLIONS of support funds into the country, year after year after year....to **** on all that and look at a far away country as it's "saviour", feeling badly treated by its neighbours, can't be good for the country....
You can't make good policy on such wrong beliefs!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
...it is no secret that polish governments love to play the "we are the US besties in Europe" card and sh*t on the german EU....it never gained them anything, not even in Washington.
Poland could already be a leading member in Brussels...but somehow they don't want to! *shrugs*
Especially not as Poland is in competition with the UK for the "european bestie" place....a place they will never gain, and be it only because of the history and the language! I truly dunno whats going on in those heads in Warsaw who again believe a far away doubtful friend is so much preferable than being close to their neighbours....especially knowing polish history!
...it is no secret that polish governments love to play the "we are the US besties in Europe" card and sh*t on the german EU....it never gained them anything, not even in Washington.
Poland could already be a leading member in Brussels...but somehow they don't want to! *shrugs*
Especially not as Poland is in competition with the UK for the "european bestie" place....a place they will never gain, and be it only because of the history and the language! I truly dunno whats going on in those heads in Warsaw who again believe a far away doubtful friend is so much preferable than being close to their neighbours....especially knowing polish history!
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
.....that too!
Obviously presumed Poland sees that growing "muscle" as a european thing, to strenghtening the EU, not something for far away powers (*cough* Washington *cough*) to use at will. Warsaw should strive not to be seen in Europe as an USian bootlicker as with Iraq, just saying....
Otherwise polish history might repeat itself....with an unhappy neighbourhood and far away powers who decide to stay out of neighbourly conflicts....
.....that too!
Obviously presumed Poland sees that growing "muscle" as a european thing, to strenghtening the EU, not something for far away powers (*cough* Washington *cough*) to use at will. Warsaw should strive not to be seen in Europe as an USian bootlicker as with Iraq, just saying....
Otherwise polish history might repeat itself....with an unhappy neighbourhood and far away powers who decide to stay out of neighbourly conflicts....
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
...but that only costs, they don't gain one ruble with that.
...but that only costs, they don't gain one ruble with that.
Bratwurst Boy
7 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....who knows....becoming a military power, even meddling in far away affairs, could be an important step to "heal" that polish soul which undeniably still seems to be abit broken because of some difficult spots in their history.
But putting all of your trust in far away powers and neglecting the neighbours never helped in the past, to make this political error again should be avoided, one would think!
....who knows....becoming a military power, even meddling in far away affairs, could be an important step to "heal" that polish soul which undeniably still seems to be abit broken because of some difficult spots in their history.
But putting all of your trust in far away powers and neglecting the neighbours never helped in the past, to make this political error again should be avoided, one would think!
Bratwurst Boy
7 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
Seriously?
Germany has it worse....you are all once enemies!
They trusted the west,pre NATO, in 1939 and no help came......
Seriously?
Germany has it worse....you are all once enemies!
Bratwurst Boy
7 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
Poland is protected through NATO, but that buildup means they are preparing for more. I frankly don't think Putin is really considering attacking a NATO member, not as it has been shown he is overtaxed with Ukraine already.
But....this war could become a long, drawn out one....even with an unclear ending if territories are still up for negotiating. It could be thought that kicking the russian army when she is down, or at least enormously weakened, with a fit, modern, motivated and fresh army to push the Russians far back....all outside and independent of NATO of course. Such a move must never be seen as a NATO attack, but otherwise....why not!
Just some thinking....
PS: I agree with the conclusions of this article concerning Germany though....Germany looks at that polish military buildup not that unhappy!
Poland is protected through NATO, but that buildup means they are preparing for more. I frankly don't think Putin is really considering attacking a NATO member, not as it has been shown he is overtaxed with Ukraine already.
But....this war could become a long, drawn out one....even with an unclear ending if territories are still up for negotiating. It could be thought that kicking the russian army when she is down, or at least enormously weakened, with a fit, modern, motivated and fresh army to push the Russians far back....all outside and independent of NATO of course. Such a move must never be seen as a NATO attack, but otherwise....why not!
Just some thinking....
PS: I agree with the conclusions of this article concerning Germany though....Germany looks at that polish military buildup not that unhappy!
Bratwurst Boy
7 Jun 2023
News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]
....that would make only sense if Poland plans to become actively involved in the Ukraine war....sooner or later....
....that would make only sense if Poland plans to become actively involved in the Ukraine war....sooner or later....