News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Of course it would....a polish weapon system shared in the whole of Europe....it's soldiers all training on it together, working on in bases shared across the continent....what's not to like? :)


Should I rather had said "limits"? I don't mean so much country borders but borders between independent and union....between your "own" army and a common army!

For along while you won't really know where one stops and the other begins....especially in mainland Europe, with so many small and middle sized countries/armies side by side....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Of course I do....what is that for a question?

I don't support a gazillion expensive armies side by side....between allies....you see how powerful NATO is...without it we would be all little Ukraines....okay, some with nukes but most not....rife for the picking....do you want that for Poland?

....and don't let me get started with the costs.....all independent and out alone - countries would have to pay for it also all alone.....some richer countries could and surely stem it, many poorer ones could not, or they would have to save it with the negligence of other important things....medical....school....you name it.

But in consequence that would mean that richer countries would be more independent, meaning safer, than not so rich countries.....fair?

ESPECIALLY for smaller, not so stinking rich countries sharing costs and duties, a common army, would make so much sense...how you can be against it is beyond me!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


NATO was a great start....but for this future Europe will need to chip in alot more!

The US will soon be alot less euro-centric than it is now, and with it NATO.

We will have to fill that space....NATO will help building that european replacement, with Europeans for Europe. They will support each other.

It may sound funny for you, but to keep our independence we will need to work alot closer with each other....the borders will be fluid.


Then what are we discussing here since a few days????

I was saying from the start that a militarily strong Poland would help the whole of Europe....I very much doubt that, as Milo said, that Poland will not use it for the defence of Europe and rather sit on the sidelines and watch, should our Europe be truly threatened.

A strong polish military will be a strong european military....as will every other european-country military....it makes sense to share the costs and duties, right?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


You could insert any european country name in this sentence.....the future global world won't care. The age of Europe nears its end....no european country alone will stay powerful and independent anymore.

The future world will be ruled by blocs....we, the West, Europe with the US, will have to build a strong bloc to stay competetive....something no lone country can achieve on itself anylonger....these are the facts we have to face...thats not a political ideology or a wishful thinking or a try to recreate a Reich!

Every european country alone for itself will fall back and behind in the bin of history....without influence, power and hence without true indepence! *shrugs* I don't make these facts, nor do I build this future, German or not! Everybody with eyes can see this development....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

....not to forget "Micron", you as a Brit hate France sometimes more than Germany....you poor tortured thing you! :(

Believe me....the Euro-Army will come....the future global world demands that....what will you do when Washington cheers for it, helps starting it?

It will exist within cooperations and maneuvers and exercises and shared costs and duties long before you would give it a name! :)

So....you are right.....let the discussion end here, it's not as if future Europe truly will have a choice.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Sure.....we will do it!

....and Poland will sit on the sideline, with all of its shiny, beefed up army and watch.....I can just see that before my inner eye! :)

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Do tell....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


.....I don't remember having you such concerns regarding Germany or France?

There is always sounds like fear of what they could do with such a military....not what they wouldn't be allowed to do....rather curious, isn't it! :)

Frankly....both World Wars would be avoided with a common army....with a Union as the EU already in place....that alone are enough good arguments!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

.....yeah....maybe some polish posters could provide more insight into these plans....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

....especially as Poland is not known for colonial wars to exploit far away countries....

I very much doubt Poland would have a problem with not-doing that....less a problem than...say....Britain?

A more realistic case would be another Iraq-war....a lone decision by Washington, never recognized by the EU, the UN or even NATO.....will the US do that ever again? With it's attention on China?

Doubtful....after all we would no longer talking of a weak Poland lacking self-esteem, hoping to be recognized and awarded by the US for it's loyalty.

The future Poland is strong, militarily and economically, a leader of the EU with lotsa influence and self confidence....why the hell should they lick foreign boots for nothing ever again???

After all what did Poland gain from their loyalty? The US did not reward them, didn't they....that was another hard lesson!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

I mean....there are alot of good arguments....but to compare the EU with the worst of the british Empire is not.....with that you can only lose!

I hope you refrain from it from now on....when you are smart...

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Did you ever scrutinize your hostility against Germany and France?

Where it stems from? Is it something taught in british schools?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

I repeat...it's funny seeing the EU being called by a Brit as some kind of nefarious, nasty German-French project to subjugate, oppress, enslave and exploit the other poor Europeans...after all its what your Empire did and would do, isn't it!

Do you know that the Internet is full of examples about the murderous cruelty of the British Empire?

Why can we Germans accept our failures and so many Brits can't? Still think it was a good thing?

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Tja....wanna compare german imperialsim with your Empire??? Really?

We are innocent kittens compared to you...ROFL


theguardian.com/books/2022/mar/13/legacy-of-violence-a-history-of-the-british-empire-by-caroline-elkins-review-the-brutal-truth-about-britains-past

If we take that past into account Britain should never have any influence ever again....nowhere!

You Brits could use some reprocessing of your past....something the Germans did....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


No its not.....or I wouldn't ask....and its not a rethorical question!

You have no answer, just admit it....be brave Jon...we all make errors sometimes! You are the typical nationalist Brit...who hates its continental main rivals France and Germany....and would wish they would be back to hating and fighting each other....hence the hate for the EU and the wish for that union to fail!

*shrugs* It's not totally new but still abit surprising coming from YOU from all posters!

You know that Putin wishes for the same, don't you....no old ex-empire is truly happy about the EU....before...so many small countries....alone....easy pickings....no longer!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Oh please Jon....don't hide now like an old woman.

What do you meant with "german imperialism"!

Or maybe you meant nothing with it....just throwing out some insults without any reasoning....and you know that very well!

*shakes head*

Yeah....back to the future polish army....I look forward to it! :)

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Please answer.....you weren't shy bringing Napoleon, Hitler, DeGaulle and what not into this thread when you think it fits.

Just throwing around things like German Imperialism without explanation is no good conduct!

But it would fit seeing how you can't help even denigrating France with "Micron"....I guess your hostility is not only against Germany but France as well, and they were your allies in both World Wars....so the wars don't explain it...it must be the old rivalry....

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


How so?

Please explain....after all when you see the EU in the year of 2023 it's interesting that you bring the wars of the last century as an argument AGAINST it. After all the EU is the consequence of these wars, and that this warring must stop at last.

Where do you see german imperialism when we greet a stronger Poland building up a strong military?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Well....a Poland getting stronger.....the US' influence/interest in Europe getting weaker (because of other more pressing matters in Asia).....Poland an EU member with a growing voice...someone has to take over, and I see Poland willing!

I personally see Poles proud of being heard and seen by Europe at last....being proud to protect Europe....I see a strong Poland bound even closer to the EU than ever!

There will be developments someone "outside" just won't be able to change directional....it is what it is! The Brexit will be in later history books seen as one of the biggest blunders in british history....taking itself out of important decision processes, and needlessly so!

Which article?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Am I wrong?


Absolutely!

Poland could be a powerful european leader....being part of the military arm would only strenghten its voice in Brussels. Having a strong military would generally strenghten the EU! I said so already at the beginning of this thread! :)

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I find it interesting still....the truth about your hostility came out at last....all argumentation before was just smoke, wasn't it.

Behind it all it's the age old rivalry.....Europe must'n unify! Or else the UK will lose out....right? Better the Continent fights each other, better for Britain!

We can leave it at that!

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You are quite a modern-thinking individual Jon, at least I had pegged you as such with your defense of all things "leftist" social developments and minority rights and such.

Why is it that politically you share the viewpoint of the darkest british ultra-nationalists??? Only happy when there is strife and fraction on the Continent, neighbours hating and fighting each other?

Because that would keep Europe weak and irrelevant? Further depending on GREAT Britain? Is that it?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


You wouldn't be the United Kingdom without that empire....we wouldn't even use English as a world language without that Empire....without it you would be just some irrelevant island in the sea before Europe! :)

The whole Brexit was about jealousy, hurt pride....no longer being the top.....you Brits have nothing against an EU-Empire, if it would be led by London, not Brussels, be honest!

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


I always find it funny how a Brit, the descendant of a huge global Empire, still profiting from centuries of wars, invasions, oppression, colonization, slavery and exploitation projects all of this violent past on little EU! A union whose membership is not only voluntarily but sought after, and worked for for years! (As a future member has along way to go to fulfill all the entry terms).

I still think it's that age old continental european rivalry (either with France, sometimes with Spain and Germany, you name it) which had led to so many wars and destruction in our past....you Brits truly have to get over it!

And not only Poland has still less of a share on Europe, East-Germany has too....and we are fully Germans! Not the EU is to blame for that but decades of the Cold War and that socialist experiment. It will take decades also to close these developmental gaps...

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

....I wonder why you are so hostile against any kind of unifying for the continent....your Kingdom has had it's own unifying after all....it shows it's possible even with different languages and histories....and makes a union stronger than it's lone parts, wouldn't you agree. Imagine North America still cut up in it's lone states...there wouldn't be a super power US of A today....

Why not for Europe too?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

...curious....last time a country had no money left another EU country (had to) lend lotsa....(Greece crisis anybody?)

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

...it's the EU currency?

What would you prefer?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Of course....that all need some talks and treaties and especially funds....so that all will start in Brussels....with EU-members who share already so much....the language will be English and all will paid in Euro....so it will be an EU-army more or less...

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I doubt that will happen!

My guess is that the initiative will come from, or at least be strongly supported by, Washington. And it will all be part of NATO.

First there will be more maneuvers and excercises in Europe....with mainly european NATO members...under european leadership. The US will support that, since they will profit from a more and better working european branch of NATO, since their future attention is no longer on Europe but on Asia.

From that there will more and more common buildups....soldiers training together....shared bases....it will be something natural, organical....nothing forced.

Of course you can only share something which you already have, so the existence of independent armies is not questioned at all. To grow together into a common army will need time and a strong common enemy!

But yes, shared hardware, soldiers training together on it, soldiers from different countries stationed together, preparing to fight the same threat....it will be a common army long before the populaces gets a name for it! :)

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Why the heck?

Imagine the US states Ilinois and Indiana (examples shamelessly stolen from Novi) would compete with their militaries....instead of sharing the costs and getting the best the US can develop and produce elsewhere, not necessarily in Illinois or Indiana....logical, cheaper and just better than competing with each other, right? After all they will never go to war with each other ever again, but defend each other against outward threats. JUST LIKE THE EU COUNTRIES!

We really should agree to disagree here, I believe that has to do with you being a Brit....but you also have to accept that many mainland Europeans, so close to each other, not on an Island, will see things differently.

Agreed?