News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

So what are you telling me then, Natali? What is your theory? Multiple warnings were ignored. It seems clear to me what happened.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Be careful what sources you quote. Are you quoting the official Russian government source or just some press snippet from a Russian paper? Russia has defended its position time and again, just like Wałęsa had to do, but people still gnaw away at them. It's still innocent until proven guilty.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

I don't believe there's any conspiracy here. Russia would have the whole word against them if they were found to have done sth. There were a few strange details but you just have to use your nose to steer you. 9/11 just had too many inconsistencies, this affair didn't. The Mossad? I sincerely doubt that. If the EU champions were really hardline, they would have killed the Czech PM for stalling on the Lisbon Treaty. No need to probe too deeply in this case.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Also, the pilot dumped all the fuel so that there wouldn't be a massive explosion. Why he didn't go to Moscow is beyond me.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

What also gets me is why they didn't leave earlier as they surely would have checked the weather forecast. That's standard in aviation, to know the conditions of your target destination. They rushed it and surely that was bad planning. I refuse to believe that an official delegation would hash things together at the last moment and risk their lives in so doing. It just doesn't fit.

Lech may have seen fit to ignore some Russian advice but not such advice, surely??

Wildrover, it was known to be a suspect plane in the industry. Check aviation sites online and they'll confirm that. Check the views of experts on TVPInfo today.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

I feel bad that Skrzypek died, the banker. With him out of the way, the NWO guys can put sb in place who wil push the Euro through. He was problematic for other bankers that packed a punch but I salute him for making the złoty strong. What was a senior banker doing on that flight?

MarcinD, there is sth you are forgetting. It wasn't a military plane that was duty bound to land. It is merely advisory in this case, they had the option.

What does surprise me, however, is how his crew placed so much trust in him given that they would likely have extensive aviation knowledge. They surely would have anticipated the tragedy to follow and have advised him to contact Russian HQ ASAP so that they could land in Moscow.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

What, America, Israel or the Chechens put the fog there and shortened the runway? Come on, it was the culmination of 4 factors:

1) The bad call of the pilot

2) The short runway, 30 years pretty much as a defunct airport

3) The plane which was known to be suspect

4) The fog which engulfed the area.

The pilot actually got to the runway but ran parallel to it and couldn't correct so had to go round again. That's what the reports are saying anyway.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Obstinacy perhaps, f stop. Also, they were pressed for time so wanted to take a chance. It was foolish given the shoddy state of the airport and the bad record of that particular plane.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

youtube.com/watch?v=8OytAQFCkFs&feature=channel, this is a good account from people that are not likely to be biased.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Circling 4 times is odd. That really doesn't happen often. Also, an experienced pilot would be in regular contact with those on the ground in the event of uncertainty of landing. This will be the info that I'll be looking for. The black box should be for open inspection. It cannot be only that territorial jurisdiction applies given the human interest factor. Hard questions will have to be answered and it is this which the Russian top brass will have to be ready for.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

I said "such errors", peterweg. It's usually bread and butter for them and pilots have often averted major disasters through their competence.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

I agree, Russian. I sincerely hope that the Russian authorities conduct a thorough investigation ASAP and that the plane fault is confirmed. Those bloody pesky journalists are very low too. All smiles because they get a huge story. Sick basta*ds!!

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

That's a horrible comment, CK! I feel that it was just a failure of the plane but Smoleńsk is conveniently rather rural and covered. Pilots very seldom make such errors and I doubt that the wing behaved in the way that they said it did.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Krakowiak, you will never match Russia militarily so I wouldn't speak of it. Wow, 132 probably dead. Ouch! RIP!

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Well, he was attacked in Georgia. They are beginning to doubt the account on TVP Info.

Let's start the fullest investigation now and not 70 years later. This is one of the biggest mistakes of history, to wait and miss chances. Act now and don't let gossip linger!

Conspiracies will fly. My wife thinks Tusk may have had a hand in it. He hated Lech and he was always vetoed by him. They had a very uneasy relationship. Tusk is a NWO puppet and tows the EU/NATO line.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Oh, for God's sake man, cut the crap!!! This is NOT the time for frickin paranoia about Russia invading. Please, once and for all, honour those that died and just cut it out!!

Marek, you are a disgrace to your nation!!! Stop flaming and talking about fighting Russia. They would destroy Poland in an instant and who in Poland wants that???? STOP!

CK, in the spirit of Katyń, kindly take that back! If Russia doesn't show remorse for this incident, it will be seen in a very bad light. I hope it doesn't turn out to be another international setup. Look at the history of international affairs and you see 'remarkable' coincidences. Let's just hope that this isn't one of them! And don't be mocking my nation either. Fly over Scotland one more time and you'll find that you'll be a few MIGs short.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Let's not embrace wild conspiracy theories here, nobody wants to delve into paranoia. They wouldn't be so stupid as to do sth like that but, then again, I know better than to take the news at first announcement. I just don't believe we should be moving towards a hateful position by assuming that they did it. A Polish reporter on tv is saying that the cloud cover was quite thick but it wasn't so misty or foggy at all.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Yes but they are just options that aren't often used by Poles. Poles tend to keep it simple when it comes to language, the same as others really. Much language that exists isn't in free circulation and is thus redundant, possibly to become obsolete in the future.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Easy peasy Japanesee, actually ;) Yes, I knew that saying 5 years ago, TIT. I wouldn't use palmę there but I'd use tree instead.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Polish has become normal for me as I've normalised it. I like the challenge of the higher level grammar. Only so much can come 'na czuja/wyczucie' ;)

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

Eh, come again!? Attitude is what it's all about. Their language is as it is. One of my students tested me out with counters yesterday. I was doing really well until I hit the counter for 6 horses. Then again, I don't imagine that popping up in discussion.

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

How simple can I make it, Sok? The data you use is of dubious origin and repute. You cannot possibly know their true capabilities as Hitler didn't make that public knowledge. Piłsudski sensed it in his 2 stools quote. However, the people that may have known didn't divulge it for whatever reason.

I meant the fleet, yes, but what is your point about pocket battleships?

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

Germany was building up in a climate of secrecy, Sok. So I ask again, what Ministry of Defence website were you reading? Have you international clearance at the highest level? ;)

So, when did they put their cards on the table? Hindsight is a great thing, Sok.

My beliefs in 9/11 were all corroborated and not mere speculation.

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

We'll see what he comes up with. I'm very amateurish when it comes to WWII but enjoy trotting out the limited things I've picked up.

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

I don't believe you were privy to the full schematics of the German navy. That is the exclusive preserve of those in the upper echelons of intel. Books can only speculate on the true accuracy of their naval capabilities.

Well, that does sound like a conspiracy. Russia wasn't in in 1939. Forgive my ignorance but the summer of 1941 was their entry time, right? That's over a year and a half into the war.

Again, you are using stats without corroboration. Any other data to back up your numbers?

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

You paint it as a conspiracy, Sok. If the logical course of action was so clear then why wasn't it taken? You make it sound like Britain wanted to string out the war. Part of me believes that given the ruthless profiteering of arms firms. Isn't it odd that "peace in our times" Chamberlain just faded into obscurity?

I don't believe that the Luftwaffe lossed 25% in such a short time, it just doesn't make sense. Goering had been assembling a mighty force for years and it just doesn't add up that such a large percentage bit the dust in such a short time.

Again, what makes you think that the German navy wouldn't have been ready for us? You are discussing fleet strengths without the requisite tactical follow up and feasibility studies. That was, interestingly enough, a major critique of the Polish approach under WS and RS. They didn't carry out any war games or conduct any kind of tests into how tenable the defence propositions were. Yes, the romanticism of the Poles was overstated but it was still in evidence with some of what they felt could be achieved.

Did your grandad pick up any of those pamphlets? ;) ;)

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

There was a lot of ambivalence shown by Britain and France towards the build up to war, Sok. France blindly believed that peace was gonna be the norm, they would have enjoyed drinking parties with Chamberlain ;)

France could have performed more trickery as they border Germany, Britain doesn't. Strategically, the Germans would have seen our attack coming, especially given the extra week they were given to prepare. The Luftwaffe sustained only minor losses (major for 2 days but it's all relative) in the first couple of days against Poland and could have intercepted us quite freely. I'm not privy to the discussions between France and Britain as to an attack from the West.

A possible mistake on Poland's part was not insisting that France join them. RS could have done this at the behest of WS. France and Britain showed their weak sides.

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

On the first para, it gave an excellent opportunity for you to learn from your mistakes. Many Poles are keen on history and enjoy war strategy games as I have learned. RS was isolated and ended up fleeing, I think.

It was like a game of poker. Poland banked on attacks in areas formerly occupied by Germany which is logical given their vigorous and vehement drive to win them back after WWI. This is, after all, one of the main reasons that Hitler got such broad-based support. Reparations were a thorn in their side. WS can easily be forgiven for that.

Very rational fears too. The only real thing that helped the Polish cause was a stalling of around one week when Britain and France agreed to go to war in the event of an attack on Poland. As I have conceded, Churchill was a mixed bag. Part of him wanted justice for Poles but my greater instinct tells me that his intentions were not with Poland but with British glory. You may laugh at that as obvious but plenty Brits won't even cede that. They portray Britain as this great saviour that came to the aid of the Poles. As Polish people love to say, 'gówno prawda'. You should read some excerpts of Michael Gilbert, he spoke in Poland not so long ago. He tried a balanced perspective on Churchill's war efforts. He helped collate his wartime memorials and has been extensively involved in Churchill's life and works.

Well, in fairness Sok, Britain was in just 2 days after the outbreak (on the 3rd of Sep). No, not in Poland but the war was fought on so many fronts. Poland fell in just over a month so forgive me for asking, where did you get a year from?

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

Exactly, Sok, exactly. I didn't find Piłsudski's pre-emptive plea to France there ;) ;)

I think so. Let's drink to Polish successes :) :) Na zdrowie! Us Scots appreciated your efforts, especially in the RAF. Only good words :)

Fires also, yes, but also low-lying clouds and what we call stoor in Scottish. Sth like dust but of a specific type.

Communications relays more I was thinking. As you said, they targetted civilians more. Yeah, the resistance was fierce too. I can't remember the brigade name, maybe Pursuit PL?? What the Poles DID do well was perform well when outnumbered. I just feel that Wacław Stachiewicz didn't have plans B, C and D. Mobilisation was hindered by foreign bumbling but Poland was not duty bound to follow their suggestions.

Oh, "the war was an obvious failure"? True or false? ;) ;) ;) I think we are proving each other right in different places :)

History / The great mistakes of Poland's history? [216]

What else would I base my contentions on when you know that I didn't fight in the war? Think, man, think! I'm just saying that you don't weigh up all the different sides and come to a conclusion so you shouldn't be so sure.

Look, I didn't say Guderian was serving an agenda. I was referring to other authors who jumped on the opportunity to make money from the actions of war. I am not saying he is lying at all, how many times do I need to reiterate this? I'm just saying that it's not black and white and that there can be a bit of both. There is evidence of standard tactics and also of blitzkrieg. Do you want more examples of blitzkrieg, would that help?

Yes, we are in agreement here, Sok (with regards to the Red Army). However, look back above. What I was saying was that Blitzkrieg was employed and you even cited examples for me. German propaganda perpetrated myths on it and also on Polish cavalry marauding foolishly into their deaths. That's why I don't like propaganda at all. Operation Wasserkante was about strategic bomb dropping and a quick wiping out of targets. However, as we agree, Black Monday saw limited visibility and even smog which frustrated the pilots. Having said that, they still struck key targets.